Israeli War!

[Mr. Mercedes]

I don't know exactly, to my knowledge there 2 crises for Israel.
One was in the 1948(/49) war.

Initially the Israel seemed lost, but after major influx of population they've won and weapons.
Since both the US and Soviet Union had recognized Israel, it had International moral suport.

Also there was the Yom Kippur war. Initally the arab alliance had upper hand
thanks to the element of surprise, thus ocupying/liberating/takeing back important teritories.

If think it was at this point that H. Kissinger said that for every israelian airplaine that arabs claimed to have taken down, the US will replace it.

Since the 60s the US had become desperate, some might say, in preserving Israel.

While there was suport in one way or another for Israel from some part of the american population (jewish mostly) it was only after the Soviets stepped in, that a strong Israel had becomed an american necesity.

That american suport for Israel led to the first Oil Crise.
Eventually the USA and Soviet Union made a common front to end the war.

But at this point of the war the situation was reversed.

Right IE, so basically you just verified my comments which you thought were the stupidest things ever said on this forum. Ok It may be going a bit far to say they are one and the same, but the main point was this so called Israeli military machine wouldn't be able to hold a candle to its current form were in not for the US.

 

[LaArtist]

yep i agree everyone has their reasons to fight in a war.. some get fooled into doing it..and some do it by their own will..

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Right IE, so basically you just verified my comments which you thought were the stupidest things ever said on this forum. Ok It may be going a bit far to say they are one and the same, but the main point was this so called Israeli military machine wouldn't be able to hold a candle to its current form were in not for the US.

OK, let's clarify a little.

1. America started helping Israel since the 60s. There were arab-israelian wars before the 60s.

2. While America aided Israel with money and weapons, the Soviet Union/Easthern block aided the arab countries.

For example, in the 60s, the soviets had given Egypt an Air Force twice as big as that of Israel.

But it was in discipline, training, morale, general competence, the coordination with intelligence in the developement of tatics and strategy that the Israeli IDF far surpassed its arab counter-parts, thus allowing Israel to defeat them.

And while you claim that without America Israeli IDF could not hold a candle, that's wrong, because its discipline, experience, competence, witch makes it perhaps the finest in the world, simply won't disapear at the snap of 2 fingers.

Latest update:

Rockets fired by Hezbollah have killed eight people in Haifa, Israel's third-largest city, according to medics.

Sadly, just as I predicted.

 

[Osnabrueck]

For the life of me, I don't understand why the US has gone through all the trouble of inserting itself into the messy territorial despute that is the Arab Israeli conflict. Or, taking it a step further, why we're so compelled to go to bat for Isreal.

From a geopolitical point of view, I don't see what the US has gained. We've reaped the ire of an increasingly radicalized Muslim populace, many of whom are willing to die for their ideology. So what gives? Is is that we just have a very effective pro-Isreali lobby in the US?

I guess it's too late to conjure an effective solution to either the conflict, or the tangentially related "war on Terror." Elements within the Muslim world are very radicalized to the point where, no matter what action the US takes in the future, there will always be the looming threat of terrorist attacks.

Isreal moved out of Gaza, which I thought was the right move. But now what have they gained? Rocket attacks. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I accept that even without Isreal sitting smack dab in the middle of it all, the middle east wouldn't be all peaches and cream. In fact, I think Isreal serves as a very convenient distraction for certain governments. Were it not for all this guff to get worked up over they might focus on domestic matters and make an entirely different kind of stir.

So I'm going nowhere with this post real fast. Um... I guess my point is that the Israelis will never have respite from their particular situation until "they" somehow realize that their notion of a sovereign, pseudo-theocratic Jewish state had some very serious problems from the get-go. You can't brow-beat your neighbors into complicity any more than you can buy true love.

The Irish and the English were at each other throats for over 700 years. We should learn a lesson from them.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

For the life of me, I don't understand why the US has gone through all the trouble of inserting itself into the messy territorial despute that is the Arab Israeli conflict. Or, taking it a step further, why we're so compelled to go to bat for Isreal.

From a geopolitical point of view, I don't see what the US has gained. We've reaped the ire of an increasingly radicalized Muslim populace, many of whom are willing to die for their ideology. So what gives? Is is that we just have a very effective pro-Isreali lobby in the US?

I guess it's too late to conjure an effective solution to either the conflict, or the tangentially related "war on Terror." Elements within the Muslim world are very radicalized to the point where, no matter what action the US takes in the future, there will always be the looming threat of terrorist attacks.

Isreal moved out of Gaza, which I thought was the right move. But now what have they gained? Rocket attacks. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I accept that even without Isreal sitting smack dab in the middle of it all, the middle east wouldn't be all peaches and cream. In fact, I think Isreal serves as a very convenient distraction for certain governments. Were it not for all this guff to get worked up over they might focus on domestic matters and make an entirely different kind of stir.

So I'm going nowhere with this post real fast. Um... I guess my point is that the Israelis will never have respite from their particular situation until "they" somehow realize that their notion of a sovereign, pseudo-theocratic Jewish state had some very serious problems from the get-go. You can't brow-beat your neighbors into complicity any more than you can buy true love.

The Irish and the English were at each other throats for over 700 years. We should learn a lesson from them.

Great post.

OK first, what has the US gained ?!
Well the question during the cold war was rather,
what America did not lose ?!

Answer:
Thru Israel it created a counter ballance to the (perceived) Soviet sphere of infuence (over Israel's arab neighbours).

Thus it (perceived that it) did not lose the entire area to the soviets (influence).

And no, even without Israel, things woudn't be all peachy.
Goverments legal or not in radical/non democratic countries do use Israel and the USA as skape goats for their own failures/mess.

 

[klier]

I agree with the first few posts The Artist made for this thread.

The Israelis are CRAZY and out of control, and the western world (Europe or the NATO/U.N, not the U.S) should for once do something.

 

[LaArtist]

you know osna i belive the support for israel is beacuse many high posts and many large buisnesses are held by the jewish american community..

maybe im wrong..but i like to belive that the jewish ppl all over the world are very keen on helping their own kind.. wich is gr8 kudos to them

 

[SDNR]

And no, even without Israel, things woudn't be all peachy.

That's for sure ...the radicals don't have much time for the Saudi Royal family, Qatar, Kuwait, or The UAE, either ...even Egypt has internal problems.

 

[Michael]

That's for sure ...the radicals don't have much time for the Saudi Royal family, Qatar, Kuwait, or The UAE, either ...even Egypt has internal problems.

This is very true. Despite the fact that the UAE has advanced so much and is so wealthy they still have social and at times political problems.

I am going to try right to redirect the topic towards what this was meant for. I have a question for all of you who have participated and those that will. Here goes:

With both sides heating up, what would be YOUR solution to the problem?

1. Let the battle continue
2. Have the US intervene
3. Iran intervene
4. Orders from the UN taken into consideration and followed?
5. Your solution?

What do you think can halt this devating and ever growing battle?

 

[Deutsch]

What's the solution??? It's easier said than done (obviously) but people need to understand that it's not all about them and their "people", because you can't make one decision on a national scale in regards to foreign policy and not expect to make a large impact on the world around you. We live in an international commuinity. People need to put their pride aside and learn that this space wasn't intended just for them, otherwise... well, it would be just them and no one else. It doesn't take a politican or political science major to figure that out. Secondly, I don't think we should pin point the finger at any particular persons, or beliefs for that matter, it's people that are responsible for their actions, not ideas.

 

[SDNR]

What's the solution??? I

I'm not sure either Deutsch ..but I think it is quite disgraceful that the world is just standing by and watching why innocent people are being killed ...sure Israel is getting some of the extremists but many innocent civilians are dying also.

Once again, where the hell is the UN?. The US needs to get it's act together here ...because of it's influence on the UN security council ....they must tell Israel to stop this craziness right now.

As far as I am aware, most Lebanese do not like Hezbollah anyway ..but these attacks from Israel will cause much resentment and actually help the [Hezbollah] extremists to gain support from ordinary Lebanese people ...Israel is playing a very dangerous game.

 

[rammie]

You are right Roberto.

As to why the UN hasn't interfered yet, well, being the only "super power country" apparently has its' benefits..

 

[Michael]

Roberto you are right in your assertion of the UN. Yesterday I watched a documentary about North Korea and how there was a journalist that was secretly reporting to the outside world how bad the condition was in NK. However, it got up to the point where he eventually was going to be caught because of all the NK spies around. So, he could not flee to South Korea because there were more spies there and he would risk being killed on the spot. Going to China wasn't a solution either because of China's support for North Korea. Eventually, he had no choice but to go to the UN. The UN, however, played politics with this man's life and said they would not give him asylum unless the US would take him in. Guess what the US said to him? They said they would not take him in unless he was giving asylum.

The North Korean journalist eventually gets asylum from the UN or the US, can't remember, but that comes after the airing of his program.

The point here is how at times the UN does do good, but I think they INDIRECTLY do more bad than they wish. They are beauracratically controlled so much that they literally serve no purpose unless the beauracrats suppor the country that is sufferring.

When I look at the news about Israel and Lebanon, the only thing I can wonder is how this is being permitted and how another country, lets say, Iran and Iraq or Iran and country X, would not be fighting for more than a day. What I am trying to say is that this is ridiculous and absurb how these two countries (primarily one) is attacking, bombing so many innocent people. What lesson is to be learned other than to stimulate more hatred for a country that is already hated in this region.

The US is playing with fire in my opinion, and have been, since the 60s.

As far as a solution....well...it is rather hard, and I know the difficulties of such a question. However, this war/battle/fight has been going on for centuries and will only continue. Children are born into families on both sides of the line that are raised to hate the enemy. This is a family hatred line that has been in place for many many years and will not just end at the families. The government intself has come about because of this fighting, especially Israel's. There will never really be peace I am afraid, because as long as there exists an issue over the land there will always be fighting. The only thing we can hope for is for another UN resolution or ATTEMPT like the one that happened in 1945 where they attempted to make Israel in two parts. On belonging to the jews and the other belonging to the muslims, christians, etc. There would be a middle ground that would belong to no one and that would be Jerusalem. However, both sides did not like this, or one of them didn't. Either way the point is that it failed.


UPDATE
It seems now that even the people of Israel are protesting against their government in Tel Aviv. Take a look at this:


Left-wing rally: Negotiate with Hamas, Hizbullah



Some 1,000 people take part in march held in protest of Israeli operations in Lebanon, Gaza. Demonstrators call on government to cease military actions, negotiate for release of hostages
Moran Rada



Some 1,000 protestors joined Sunday evening in a rally in Tel Aviv to protest the IDF strikes in Southern Lebanon. Police have arrested three of the protesters claiming they were holding a demonstration without a permit.



The protesters, who marched from Hen Boulevards toward King George Street, chanted slogans such as "Olmert agreed with Bush: War and occupation." "Stop the war monstrosity," and "Say no to the brutal bombardments on Gaza." They also accused Defense Minister Amir Peretz of murdering children in Gaza, and recited: "Peretz, don't worry, we'll be seeing you at The Hague."


More here:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276906,00.html


What I find so interesting about this is that these poeple are "left-wing" radicals that are portrayed by, at least hte title, as people who are not accepted in society or are to radical.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Roberto you are right in your assertion of the UN. Yesterday I watched a documentary about North Korea and how there was a journalist that was secretly reporting to the outside world how bad the condition was in NK. However, it got up to the point where he eventually was going to be caught because of all the NK spies around. So, he could not flee to South Korea because there were more spies there and he would risk being killed on the spot. Going to China wasn't a solution either because of China's support for North Korea. Eventually, he had no choice but to go to the UN. The UN, however, played politics with this man's life and said they would not give him asylum unless the US would take him in. Guess what the US said to him? They said they would not take him in unless he was giving asylum.

The North Korean journalist eventually gets asylum from the UN or the US, can't remember, but that comes after the airing of his program.

The point here is how at times the UN does do good, but I think they INDIRECTLY do more bad than they wish. They are beauracratically controlled so much that they literally serve no purpose unless the beauracrats suppor the country that is sufferring.

When I look at the news about Israel and Lebanon, the only thing I can wonder is how this is being permitted and how another country, lets say, Iran and Iraq or Iran and country X, would not be fighting for more than a day. What I am trying to say is that this is ridiculous and absurb how these two countries (primarily one) is attacking, bombing so many innocent people. What lesson is to be learned other than to stimulate more hatred for a country that is already hated in this region.

The US is playing with fire in my opinion, and have been, since the 60s.

As far as a solution....well...it is rather hard, and I know the difficulties of such a question. However, this war/battle/fight has been going on for centuries and will only continue. Children are born into families on both sides of the line that are raised to hate the enemy. This is a family hatred line that has been in place for many many years and will not just end at the families. The government intself has come about because of this fighting, especially Israel's. There will never really be peace I am afraid, because as long as there exists an issue over the land there will always be fighting. The only thing we can hope for is for another UN resolution or ATTEMPT like the one that happened in 1945 where they attempted to make Israel in two parts. On belonging to the jews and the other belonging to the muslims, christians, etc. There would be a middle ground that would belong to no one and that would be Jerusalem. However, both sides did not like this, or one of them didn't. Either way the point is that it failed.

Great post BMWFREAK. I agree with much/most of what you have said.

It's really interesting, and a great learning experience, to read all the varied posts on this topic. There are strong arguments on both sides, so strong in fact it seems the areas left open for compromise are too small for there to be a lasting peace. Furthermore with this latest round of violence all the world powers, so far at least, appear to stepping back and merely commenting from the sideline with no one willing to take the lead.

I'd like to know what the three main religions in question have to say about this in a religious context. The Israelis see the creation of a sovereign state as necessary for the coming of the Messiah, while the Christians and Muslims see this conflict as sign of the coming of 'judgment day' so to speak?

 

[Michael]

Thank you Mr. Mercedes.

I do not know actually what the religions say, maybe Artist or other memebers can give us some information on something like this. However, I do think that they will have differing views and I am not to sure if the Jews said or needed the creation of a state for the coming of the Messiah, but I may be wrong.

It is rather interesting to watch domestic and international politics go to play in an international arena, which most of the time is a failure. The UN really has good purposes and I will never take that away from it, but marks my words, I think the UN is just the 2nd version of the League of Nations and truthfully it will fall just like the first one. When I say "fall", however, I mean that it is going to change it's make up one final time. The reason why the UN is so ineffective is because no country will give up their Sovereingty to it, so that the UN could have the ultimate power in controlling all situations. Of course I would understand why no country would want to give up its power to something which is so political controlled and ultimately will not be blind justice.

The conflict in the Middle East will persist for centuries to come unless it ends with Israel dropping a Nuke somewhere. If Israel does something as irrational as that, you can forget peace for many years. So mayn countries would get invovled that sides would form and most like WWIII would begin. I believe this is why some speculate this as the triggering effect towards WWIII. We have Iraq, Iran, NK, and the Arab-Israeli conflict. All of these working at one time don't really cause to much trouble, but all of them working or complicating things at once mayb form so much friction that no even the UN would be able to bare with.

Interesting conversation that was recorded from a microphone around Blair and Bush

Bush: Yo Blair How are you doing?
Blair: I'm just...
Bush: You're leaving?
Blair: No, no, no not yet. On this trade thingy...[inaudible]
Bush: yeah I told that to the man
Blair: Are you planning to say that here or not?
Bush: If you want me to
Blair: Well, it's just that if the discussion arises...
Bush: I just want some movement.
Blair: Yeah
Bush: Yesterday we didn't see much movement
Blair: No, no, it may be that it's not, it maybe that it's impossible
Bush: I am prepared to say it
Blair: But it's just I think what we need to be an opposition
Bush: Who is introducing the trade
Blair: Angela
Bush: Tell her to call 'em
Blair: Yes
Bush: Tell her to put him on them on the spot.Thanks for [inaudbible] it's awfully thoughtful of you
Blair: It's a pleasure
Bush: I know you picked it out yourself
Blair: Oh, absoultely, in fact [inaudble]
Bush: What about Kofi [inaudible] his attitude to ceasefire and everything else ... happens
Blair: Yeah, no I think the [inaudible] is really difficult. We can't stop this unless you get this international business agreed.
Bush: Yeah
Blair: I don't know what you guys have talked about but as I say I am perfectly happy to try and see what the lie of the land is but you need that done quickly because otherwise it will spiral
Bush: I think Condi is going to go pretty soon
Blair: But that's that's that's all that matters. But if you, you see it will take some time to get that together
Bush: Yeah, yeah
Blair: But at least it gives people...
Bush: It's a process, I agree. I told her your offer to...
Blair: Well...it's only if I mean... you know. If she's got a..., or if she needs the ground prepared as it were... Because obviously if she goes out, she's got to succeed, if it were, whereas I can go out and just talk
Bush: You see, the ... thing is what they need to do is to get Syria, to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it's over
Blair: [inaudible]
Bush: [inadubile]
Blair: Syria
Bush: Why?
Blair: Because I think this is all part of the same thing
Bush: Yeah.
Blair: What does he think? He thinks if Lebanon turns out fine, if we get a solution in Israel and Palestine, Iraq goes in the right way...
Bush: Yeah, yeah, he is sweet
Blair: He is honey. And that's what the whole thing is about. It's the same with Iraq
Bush: I felt like telling Kofi to call, to get on the phone to Bashad [Bashir Assad](9a and make something happen
Blair: Yeah
Bush: [inaudible]
Blair:
Bush: We are not blaming the Lebanese government
Blair: Is this...? (at this point Blair taps the microphone in front of him and the sound is cut.)


Another thing I want to point out is how PM Olmert says that the fighting will stop once the prisoners are returned, however, there is more to it thant he prisoners being returned for the fighting to stop. Take a look at this CNN article: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/17/mideast/index.html

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Monday that Israel will continue fighting in Lebanon until the release of two Israeli soldiers abducted last week by Hezbollah militants.

In a speech to the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, Olmert said Israel's conditions for stopping the fighting include "bringing home the soldiers, complete peace and quiet, removing Hezbollah from the area."


......

 

[LaArtist]

what?? is this recording of the conversation real??
it doesent make sense to me..

 

[Michael]

what?? is this recording of the conversation real??
it doesent make sense to me..

It is realy and you can see the video at CNN.com, it should still be on the front page but if not look here: javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/07/17/sot.bush.expletive.affl','2006/07/24');

 

[LaArtist]

LOL i noticed just after i read your post..
lol man that was really funny.. bush is one of a kind..
still you gotta give him kudos for bringing us comedy at such a criticall world situation.. gotta love it

 

[Michael]

I think we have reached the end of the life of this thread (which probably should have come a while ago.)

I would like to apologize for those of you who in any way or form were offended by this thread. I truly apologize.

I post these threads in the hopes that I can attract objective, not subjective posts, but no one can ever attempt to do such a thing since these situations are more emotionally driven than anything else. We are all human after all. So, I would like to thank all of you for participating, but unfortunately I feel that the end is past due.

Once again my apologies to any member on this forum that may have been offended, those were not my intentions.

I truly pray and hope for the best possible outcome in this situation.



Regards,


-BMWFREAK