Press Release Global sales : November 2012 : Audi, BMW, MB

[K-A]

K/A,

What would be the reason for Audi then? Look at the A4 and the A6, they have never sold at the heights they did back in the early 2000s, only the A8 does that now. Yet Audi breaks sales records every month, it is because of totally new models they've added since, like the Q7, Q5 since then. Again, look it up:

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/p/sales-stats.html

What is holding the A4 and A6 back from selling at their previous rates? Design, market competition, what is it?

M

Ok, so we're talking about product dilution to help a brand. With Audi their lineup is small enough to where they don't have higher end cars in danger of that "harming", therefore they were ready and poised to build on their lineup. M-B was known for being a brand consisting of only high end cars, therefore the new models that are carrying the weight of their sales portfolio can be culprits as to why higher end M-B's aren't selling as strongly anymore, if that is indeed the case?

If the CLC comes out and starts helping further dilution to pull sales away from the CLS, M-B brand sales can go up, but their higher end lineup will continue to fall, therefore changing M-B's positioning as a high-end-brand to a more economical-premium-centric brand.

Not saying it's good or bad, but it's what's happening.

Not all high end cars are selling less than they used to. Porsche is selling in record numbers, for example. If you think about it, those who's portfolios are being heavily expanded with cheaper newer cars are seeing it the most.

 

[Merc1]

First of all you're running around in circles.


The reason as to why replacement high end models aren't doing as well could be due to a couple of reasons. One is that M-B and BMW have expanded their brands too large too fast, with too many lower priced offerings which give people less incentive to want to spend big bucks with them (not to mention parts bin sharing, etc. with much lower priced cars), OR, economic woes pushing people into lower priced cars.

If I remember correctly, some uber-Luxury brands like RR have posted record years lately, so that would make probability #1 plausible.

BINGO! You finally get it. There are other factors than just DESIGN. That is my point. Not going in circles, trying to get you see how ridiculous this whole sales is related soley to design argument is.


Again, Rolls Royce posted their best year ever, but it based on the Ghost, a totally new model that is like a 100K less than the Phantom, only proves what I stated earlier.


I'm not running in circles you are. One minute bad design kills sales, next min it makes sales soar. You're changing positions with every post, but you seems to grasp it now that design doesn't make or break sales since no one is selling at the same rate with the same models. The sales records are being made with totally new models being added to the brand.


M

 

[Merc1]

Ok, so we're talking about product dilution to help a brand. With Audi their lineup is small enough to where they don't have higher end cars in danger of that "harming", therefore they were ready and poised to build on their lineup. M-B was known for being a brand consisting of only high end cars, therefore the new models that are carrying the weight of their sales portfolio can be culprits as to why higher end M-B's aren't selling as strongly anymore, if that is indeed the case?

If the CLC comes out and starts helping further dilution to pull sales away from the CLS, M-B brand sales can go up, but their higher end lineup will continue to fall, therefore changing M-B's positioning as a high-end-brand to a more economical-premium-centric brand.

Not saying it's good or bad, but it's what's happening.

Not all high end cars are selling less than they used to. Porsche is selling in record numbers, for example. If you think about it, those who's portfolios are being heavily expanded with cheaper newer cars are seeing it the most.

Part of that is true, but Audi is diluting anything, they didn't have a presence at the high-end, the A8 never, ever sold in the U.S.

The CLA isn't going to take sales from the CLS. Anyone serious about dropping 80K on a CLS isn't going to buy a FWD CLA for 30K. If they do, they weren't serious about the CLS anyway.

K/A, Mercedes hasn't been a truly high-end brand in years. Not sure why you can't sell that. They expanded years ago with the 190E, ML, CLK and SLK, all at the lower end than back in the day when they only had the E, S, SL type cars. They're only high end compared to BMW on down, not upwards.


M

 

[K-A]

BINGO! You finally get it. There are other factors than just DESIGN. That is my point. Not going in circles, trying to get you see how ridiculous this whole sales is related soley to design argument is.


Again, Rolls Royce posted their best year ever, but it based on the Ghost, a totally new model that is like a 100K less than the Phantom, only proves what I state earlier.


I'm not running in circles you are. One minute bad design kills sales, next min it makes sales soar. You're changing positions with every post, but you seems to grasp it now that design doesn't make or break sales since no one is selling at the same rate with the same models. The sales records are being made with totally new models being added to the brand.


M

Ok of course I don't think design solely makes or breaks sales. Plenty of hideous cars sell great or nice cars don't. There are so many factors.

What I am saying is that my feeling is that we might or will or are or whatever seeing some upper end M-B's suffering in sales due perhaps to design, as M-B is coming correct on pretty much most other fronts right now. Then again, obviously most likely it is expansion of portfolio which however gives people cheaper options which might "steal" some sales from more expensive cars.

As for M-B's market share being taken away, since we all know Dr. Z has expressed all so (too) candidly that he's concerned about that, we can speculate as to why that's happening.... Design? Not sporty enough? Not reliable enough? I guess no one REALLY knows, but my opinion would be design is leading it.

 

[Merc1]

Ok of course I don't think design solely makes or breaks sales. Plenty of hideous cars sell great or nice cars don't. There are so many factors.

What I am saying is that my feeling is that we might or will or are or whatever seeing some upper end M-B's suffering in sales due perhaps to design, as M-B is coming correct on pretty much most other fronts right now.

As for M-B's market share being taken away, since we all know Dr. Z has expressed all so (too) candidly that he's concerned about that, we can speculate as to why that's happening.... Design? Not sporty enough? Not reliable enough? I guess no one REALLY knows, but my opinion would be design is leading it.

And what I'm saying there is nothing factual to back that up since BMW and Audi are in the same boat regarding sales, their gains vs the early 2000s are being made by new models in most cases, not existing ones reaching new heights. That combined with a different market would explain a lot of it. Why do you think Audi, BMW and MB are rushing to add models at the lower end? Actually you should be happen because Mercedes plans the same type of model expansion at the top end, with their Maybach replacements. Places where the Audi and BMW brands can't go.

Not really concerned with the rest of the debate, that was my point. Clearly MB is losing share and sales vs Audi and BMW, but that wasn't my point of posting, to debate that.

M

 

[Sunny]

So I helped a co-worker shop for a car recently - a complete non car person. She had a Lexus (her parent's) before that was totaled in a crash. She wanted a 2 door coupe - so she was looking at A5, C350 and 3 coupe.

Here is how her thought process went -

A5 -
She loved the A5 design the most. But it only has 4 cylinders. Also it cost the most and the lease deals sucked.

C350-
Not crazy about the looks. Has old man's car image. 6 cylinder engine. Awesome deals - 8k off and awesome lease deals.

3er - Dealer sucked, didn't help her much. Also she didn't want anything too sporty, but something with softer ride - though she never test drove it, she associates BMW with sporty/harsher ride.

So in the end she ended up with C350 coupe cause of the awesome deal. My point, for non petrol heads, financial aspect trumps pretty much everything else.

 

[EnI]

Is there a YTD on Global sales between the two?

I've checked financial reports & sales press releases to get some info:
2012 Jan-Nov:
5-series: 320,374 (~6% up)
E-class segment: 261,132 (excl. October sales - data N/A!!!!) (~10% down) ... but let's say MB sold 28,000 E-segment vehicles in October 2102 ... making the total figure of 289,132 ... still 31,000 vehicles less sold than 5-Series in 2012 YTD.

And mind CLS annual sales worldwide are about 30,000 vehicles. Which indicates the E-class sedan sells much worse than 5er sedan worldwide.

Mind:
5-Series = 5er sedan (~77%), 5er touring (~17%), 5er GT (~6% of total 5-series sales)
E-class segment = E- class sedan , E- class wagon, E- class coupe, E- class cabrio, CLS

 

[K-A]

I've checked financial reports & sales press releases to get some info:
2012 Jan-Nov:
5-series: 320,374 (~6% up)
E-class segment: 261,132 (excl. October sales - data N/A!!!!) (~10% down) ... but let's say MB sold 28,000 E-segment vehicles in October 2102 ... making the total figure of 289,132 ... still 31,000 vehicles less sold than 5-Series in 2012 YTD.

And mind CLS annual sales worldwide are about 30,000 vehicles. Which indicates the E-class sedan sells much worse than 5er sedan worldwide.

Mind:
5-Series = 5er sedan (~77%), 5er touring (~17%), 5er GT (~6% of total 5-series sales)
E-class segment = E- class sedan , E- class wagon, E- class coupe, E- class cabrio, CLS

Well, no wonder M-B have to do such an about-face with the E, lol. I guess in 3 years we'll see another one when their "almost redesigned facelift" got beat in sales by a carefully and subtly facelifted F10 again.



Seriously though, the F10 sells too much, literally. In the U.S and Europe I see so many W212's it got me eventually too bored with the car. The F10 selling so much more probably makes it tooooo common for a car that is still technically considered "expensive".

 

[EnI]

Yep, this generation of 5er is THE MOST SUCCESSFUL 5-series EVER. Especially the sedan. And another benchmark will be set in year 2012, beating the 2011 record. And mind 5-series is THE series that brings the most money to BMW (heaviest profit margin + second best selling model just behind 3er = the biggest revenue & profit generator for BMW AG). I guess E-class has the same status in MB Cars Division, regarding profit & revenue.

It seems E-class is not only loosing it to 5er, but also to A6 lately. So, it's not a surprise MB invested A LOT in quite extensive E-class facelift. Last chance to close the gap to 5er & A6. Especially since A6 & 5er facelifts won't be as radical.

 

[K-A]

Yep, this generation of 5er is THE MOST SUCCESSFUL 5-series EVER. Especially the sedan. And another benchmark will be set in year 2012, beating the 2011 record. And mind 5-series is THE series that brings the most money to BMW (heaviest profit margin + second best selling model just behind 3er = the biggest revenue & profit generator for BMW AG). I guess E-class has the same status in MB Cars Division, regarding profit & revenue.

It seems E-class is not only loosing it to 5er, but also to A6 lately. So, it's not a surprise MB invested A LOT in quite extensive E-class facelift. Last chance to close the gap to 5er & A6. Especially since A6 & 5er facelifts won't be as radical.

That's why IMO the F10 and A6 will go down in history as more successful cars, even aside from the sales. M-B showed they NEEDED to do drastic changes to the E-Class, which will deem it a historic failure. BMW and Audi will probably do very subtle changes to their Midsizes, showing they felt not much needed to be done.

So indeed there are current cars that are still breaking their own previous sales records.

 

[Merc1]

So indeed there are current cars that are still breaking their own previous sales records.

Yeah there are exceptions as I stated, but most don't.


M

 

[Deleted member 25]

(heaviest profit margin).

More than the 7,6, x6 and x5 ?

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

More than the 7,6, x6 and x5 ?

That is correct.