Gearboxes: Manual or Automatic?
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Mr Robert
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Let me try and interpret this, manually operated clutch pedals and/or levers are not allowed on cars that are to be regarded as automatic, correct?
I can very well understand if there is a lot of confusiuon regarding this in the UK as per these rules, DCT, SMG and DSG are clearly automatic.
coolraoul
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Well if I read well...
"they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually"
The difficulty is "lever". It seems to mean that a manually operated lever means the car is a manual. Does that mean any car with a ,anual lever is a manual, thus including any car bar maybe the recent Ferraris?
Grammatically speaking, it is not "a clutch pedal or a lever" but "a clutch pedal or lever". So it only concerns a clutch lever as both pedal and lever are referring to the clutch.
If the car has a manual clutch pedal or a manual clutch lever, it is a manual.
Any car with a clutch that is operated by the driver is a manual; any car with no clutch/a clutch operated by a motor is an automatic.
A slushbox, a sequential automatic, a automated manual, a double clutch automated manual... All are automatics.
No difference between the tech, if the driver doesn't clutch it's an auto.
"they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually"
The difficulty is "lever". It seems to mean that a manually operated lever means the car is a manual. Does that mean any car with a ,anual lever is a manual, thus including any car bar maybe the recent Ferraris?
Grammatically speaking, it is not "a clutch pedal or a lever" but "a clutch pedal or lever". So it only concerns a clutch lever as both pedal and lever are referring to the clutch.
If the car has a manual clutch pedal or a manual clutch lever, it is a manual.
Any car with a clutch that is operated by the driver is a manual; any car with no clutch/a clutch operated by a motor is an automatic.
A slushbox, a sequential automatic, a automated manual, a double clutch automated manual... All are automatics.
No difference between the tech, if the driver doesn't clutch it's an auto.
south
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I'm quoting posts from the other thread, would be great if these could be moved here. 
I don't know about the official interpretation of the UK DVLA (didn't find any), but the text doesn't hold the interpretation to classify DCT/DSG cars as manual cars.
Like coolraul said, the textual interpretation tells us to read it as "clutch pedals or clutch levers". I suppose the driving licence order is also valid for bikes, so it might be necessary to mention clutch levers. DCT/DSG cars don't have any clutch pedal or clutch lever, so they're automatic.
Even if you'd have to consider any kind of lever (and hence a gear lever like the DCT paddles), they're still not being operated manually. If any kind of gear lever would fall in this definition, there weren't "any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes". Hence it wouldn't be necessary to define two different situations as done in (i) and (ii). So only these levers could be considered to be manual levers which really do the gear change manually. DCT paddles don't do this, they only provide an electric signal for the automatic gear change. IMO that's a big difference here.
No matter which one of the above interpretations you prefer (I'm for the first), DCT cars always are considered to be automatic cars. Any other interpretation is not compatible with the UK driving licence order.
Best regards,
south
I don't know about the official interpretation of the UK DVLA (didn't find any), but the text doesn't hold the interpretation to classify DCT/DSG cars as manual cars.
Like coolraul said, the textual interpretation tells us to read it as "clutch pedals or clutch levers". I suppose the driving licence order is also valid for bikes, so it might be necessary to mention clutch levers. DCT/DSG cars don't have any clutch pedal or clutch lever, so they're automatic.
Even if you'd have to consider any kind of lever (and hence a gear lever like the DCT paddles), they're still not being operated manually. If any kind of gear lever would fall in this definition, there weren't "any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes". Hence it wouldn't be necessary to define two different situations as done in (i) and (ii). So only these levers could be considered to be manual levers which really do the gear change manually. DCT paddles don't do this, they only provide an electric signal for the automatic gear change. IMO that's a big difference here.
No matter which one of the above interpretations you prefer (I'm for the first), DCT cars always are considered to be automatic cars. Any other interpretation is not compatible with the UK driving licence order.
Best regards,
south
Manual. Almost 40 years of owning manual transmission cars exclusively for my use. The Boss drives automatics as do the kids.
I've stirred gears in an epicyclic two speed Model T, unsynchronized three speed, three-on-the-tree, four speed, five speed, six speed, SMG, DCT and the best shifting of the bunch was the five speed Miata I owned. The worst was the VW Karman Ghia I learned to drive a stick on. ; -)
Still want to drive a Cotal (nee Wilson) pre-selector before I kick the bucket though. Preselector gearbox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've stirred gears in an epicyclic two speed Model T, unsynchronized three speed, three-on-the-tree, four speed, five speed, six speed, SMG, DCT and the best shifting of the bunch was the five speed Miata I owned. The worst was the VW Karman Ghia I learned to drive a stick on. ; -)
Still want to drive a Cotal (nee Wilson) pre-selector before I kick the bucket though. Preselector gearbox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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^ Semantically Pedantically.
Actually, the correct concept is that of an automated manual transmission. To the general auto license holder the fact that the car can be shifted into "D" and driven off and will change gears of its own accord makes no difference to them.
We need to break this discussion down into its simplest parts. When you're trained as a learner driver to drive only an automatic, the concepts of ratios and gears being shifted (covered when you're taught to drive a manual) are incidental and not taught. What you are shown is: this is the gas pedal - it makes the car go faster and this is the brake pedal - it makes the car go slower.
The concept of shifting down into second gear for a turn or using first gear to pull off is completely and obviously omitted. Pull the lever down to "D" whilst keeping your foot on the brake, slowly release the brake and gently accelerate using the gas pedal. In terms of car control, that's what you're taught in order to pass your license. Torque convertor autos will always behave like torque convertor autos - irrespective of how fancy the gearchange software is and how many paddles the car has.
I'm of the opinion that it's the concept around shifting gears - that stems from experience in a manual - that is required for a driver to have the necessary operator (read licensed) skill in order to be able to legally operate all of the transmission functions safely.
The problem with you lot is that you're all petrol heads - the concept of shifting gears in your minds is logical and simple.
I can tell you now: a learner driver out there who opts to get their license on an automatic by choice instead of going the co-ord (or higher grade) route is lacking in the ability to understand and control all the features of an automated manual gearbox.
Sure, they can operate an SMG or DCT gearbox in auto. But what if, for whatever reason, they somehow end up in full manual mode? Again, remember, I'm not talking about you lot, I'm referring to the hypothetical Mavis the Granny or Suzie the Teenager. Sure, they can pull off, but when the gearbox doesn't change up for them and the engine sits bouncing off the red line? Gear? What's a gear? Are you now telling me that that individual is legally licensed to safely operate all of the features of that vehicle? I disagree - regardless of what the legislation says or doesn't say.
Actually, the correct concept is that of an automated manual transmission. To the general auto license holder the fact that the car can be shifted into "D" and driven off and will change gears of its own accord makes no difference to them.
We need to break this discussion down into its simplest parts. When you're trained as a learner driver to drive only an automatic, the concepts of ratios and gears being shifted (covered when you're taught to drive a manual) are incidental and not taught. What you are shown is: this is the gas pedal - it makes the car go faster and this is the brake pedal - it makes the car go slower.
The concept of shifting down into second gear for a turn or using first gear to pull off is completely and obviously omitted. Pull the lever down to "D" whilst keeping your foot on the brake, slowly release the brake and gently accelerate using the gas pedal. In terms of car control, that's what you're taught in order to pass your license. Torque convertor autos will always behave like torque convertor autos - irrespective of how fancy the gearchange software is and how many paddles the car has.
I'm of the opinion that it's the concept around shifting gears - that stems from experience in a manual - that is required for a driver to have the necessary operator (read licensed) skill in order to be able to legally operate all of the transmission functions safely.
The problem with you lot is that you're all petrol heads - the concept of shifting gears in your minds is logical and simple.
I can tell you now: a learner driver out there who opts to get their license on an automatic by choice instead of going the co-ord (or higher grade) route is lacking in the ability to understand and control all the features of an automated manual gearbox.
Sure, they can operate an SMG or DCT gearbox in auto. But what if, for whatever reason, they somehow end up in full manual mode? Again, remember, I'm not talking about you lot, I'm referring to the hypothetical Mavis the Granny or Suzie the Teenager. Sure, they can pull off, but when the gearbox doesn't change up for them and the engine sits bouncing off the red line? Gear? What's a gear? Are you now telling me that that individual is legally licensed to safely operate all of the features of that vehicle? I disagree - regardless of what the legislation says or doesn't say.
Mr Robert
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No, not really, I agree. But it must have been deemed that the talentless drivers who may only drive automatic cars actually could comprehend the concept of semi-automatic gearboxes. I know, it sounds strange
south
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I hear you Martin. Though, the line between real automatics and semi automatics is blurring more and more. For example, what about the CLK DTM/Black Series? Equipped with a true 5 speed automatic which is programmed to hold the gears in Manual mode. I see someone having an auto licence bouncing off the red line either. Should one not be allowed to drive it with an automatic only licence? For that reason, I concur with Dr. Dunkel that people should know how to flip a paddle to 'order' a gear change, even if they're only entitled to automatic cars.^ Semantically Pedantically.
Actually, the correct concept is that of an automated manual transmission. To the general auto license holder the fact that the car can be shifted into "D" and driven off and will change gears of its own accord makes no difference to them.
We need to break this discussion down into its simplest parts. When you're trained as a learner driver to drive only an automatic, the concepts of ratios and gears being shifted (covered when you're taught to drive a manual) are incidental and not taught. What you are shown is: this is the gas pedal - it makes the car go faster and this is the brake pedal - it makes the car go slower.
The concept of shifting down into second gear for a turn or using first gear to pull off is completely and obviously omitted. Pull the lever down to "D" whilst keeping your foot on the brake, slowly release the brake and gently accelerate using the gas pedal. In terms of car control, that's what you're taught in order to pass your license. Torque convertor autos will always behave like torque convertor autos - irrespective of how fancy the gearchange software is and how many paddles the car has.
I'm of the opinion that it's the concept around shifting gears - that stems from experience in a manual - that is required for a driver to have the necessary operator (read licensed) skill in order to be able to legally operate all of the transmission functions safely.
The problem with you lot is that you're all petrol heads - the concept of shifting gears in your minds is logical and simple.
I can tell you now: a learner driver out there who opts to get their license on an automatic by choice instead of going the co-ord (or higher grade) route is lacking in the ability to understand and control all the features of an automated manual gearbox.
Sure, they can operate an SMG or DCT gearbox in auto. But what if, for whatever reason, they somehow end up in full manual mode? Again, remember, I'm not talking about you lot, I'm referring to the hypothetical Mavis the Granny or Suzie the Teenager. Sure, they can pull off, but when the gearbox doesn't change up for them and the engine sits bouncing off the red line? Gear? What's a gear? Are you now telling me that that individual is legally licensed to safely operate all of the features of that vehicle? I disagree - regardless of what the legislation says or doesn't say.
Best regards,
south
coolraoul
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Take a good ol' slushbox. Put it in 2 instead of D. The car will break the limiter and explode...
There are slushboxes that hold the gear (C63 AMG, CLK DTM), as I am sure there are DSGs that will shift alone once the rev is nearing (a Golg DSG does that doesn't it?)
Every single car (bar maybe the CVT ones) have gears, the fact it has a slushbox or an automated manual doesn't change anything to that.
If someone doesn't know that a car has different gears, then he shouldn't be allowed to drive.
The difficulty with a manual is to manage the clutch and order of the gears, not that it actually has gears! For me, differentiating between slushbox and automated manual is retarded. Both system have very similar effects to the end user.
There are slushboxes that hold the gear (C63 AMG, CLK DTM), as I am sure there are DSGs that will shift alone once the rev is nearing (a Golg DSG does that doesn't it?)
Every single car (bar maybe the CVT ones) have gears, the fact it has a slushbox or an automated manual doesn't change anything to that.
If someone doesn't know that a car has different gears, then he shouldn't be allowed to drive.
The difficulty with a manual is to manage the clutch and order of the gears, not that it actually has gears! For me, differentiating between slushbox and automated manual is retarded. Both system have very similar effects to the end user.
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It's a debate that will end up in circles. Technology blurs the lines more than ever these days.
Philosophically, what if one person gets their license in an ABS-equipped car and goes and buys a non-ABS car? [Yes, they do still exist in some countries]
Cool, autoboxes of the last 20 years will not explode if you leave the car in 2 and rev it all the way. Unless that's how french cars in Romania still work...
You'll be amazed at how many people on this planet get their license for an automatic and have no idea of what's "going on with the gears".
In any event, I am highly prejudiced in my perception of auto-only licenses and am therefore no longer going to debate this topic as my opinion is biased.
Philosophically, what if one person gets their license in an ABS-equipped car and goes and buys a non-ABS car? [Yes, they do still exist in some countries]
Cool, autoboxes of the last 20 years will not explode if you leave the car in 2 and rev it all the way. Unless that's how french cars in Romania still work...
coolraoul said:
You'll be amazed at how many people on this planet get their license for an automatic and have no idea of what's "going on with the gears".
In any event, I am highly prejudiced in my perception of auto-only licenses and am therefore no longer going to debate this topic as my opinion is biased.
HighestOfHigh
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Hmm...I thought Just_me posted this same topic a few months ago. 
If not, Automatic for me!
If not, Automatic for me!
NarutoRamen
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That is a legit reason for the "Automatic Only" license. Out here, there is just one license. It works because you would have to go in your automatic to get a license if you don't know how to drive a manual. For example at my house, my car is the only one that is a manual and the rest are autos. So, it works out when something is wrong with my car I can drive one of the other cars and do what I need to do. It would suck if my license was Manual only or if I had to get an "Automatic" license as well. That just becomes a huge pain in the ass.
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^ Like here in my country, drivers licence is manual for 99.99% of all people.
LMAO....grapes or a banana 
LMAO....grapes or a banana
MikeJ
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martinbo said:
True. The system is a bit strange though. I took a BE driving test a few months ago, and when booking the test I was asked if the car I was planning to take the test in was a stick-shift - apparently taking the test in an automatic would have meant that I would no longer have been allowed to drive a stick, despite taking my B-class driving test in a manual car years ago!
Mr Robert
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I have now been in contact with the DVLA and they confirm that a person with a B licence limited to automatic only is entitled to drive a car with a DSG style gearbox - right or wrong, from a less formal point-of-view.
The key issue that distinguishes between automatic and manual is the presence of a pedal or lever that allows the driver to manually operate the clutch.
Buttons that are used to change gears have no influence on the assessment.
The key issue that distinguishes between automatic and manual is the presence of a pedal or lever that allows the driver to manually operate the clutch.
Buttons that are used to change gears have no influence on the assessment.
