F1 Ferrari determined to quit F1 if 2010 rules stand

[Remy Zero]

F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of of motorsports, not a budget one. I understand the economic situation now, but, the economy will always rise and fall.

Now, rather than attracting big manufacters, F1 is attracting small spenders, and budget teams. No offense, but i think this is not the place for them. They have other series to suit their budgets.

Personally, i think both Max and especially Bernie, are greedy people. They have totally destroyed F1. I really hope to see Ferrari develop a diesel and take the fight to Audi and Peugoet at Le Mans, with Schumacher 'tagging' along.

 

[Centurion]

I understand the economic situation now, but, the economy will always rise and fall.

That's my point as well, this isn't the first recession that motor sport has experienced and to be honest it's a fairly mild one. F1 and The Victoria's Secret Show are all highly appealing because of the exclusivity and for being the absolute best. By allowing anyone with money to participate, the attraction would erode.

€40 million is peanuts in the business world and would result in random drivers with inheritance money starting up a team that would just wreck other cars and waste time on the circuit. Like it has all been stated, those who are whinning about money are very free to join GP2.

Ferrari and Mercedes have transferred a lot of knowledge gained in F1 to their production cars. And if they are prohibited by budget restrictions in pushing technological boundaries, then F1 become nothing but a market circuit. Thankfully fans and manufacturers stand united on this so Mosley better take his thumb out of his ass and realise that he and Bernie are just wasting people's time and money now.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Dieter Rencken's, Autosport.com, rumors & speculations regarding the possibility of 7 abandoning teams buying the A1GP franchise?

For their money they would acquire an FIA-approved series with the required international infrastructure, circuit contracts with the likes of Mugello, Kyalami, Portimao, Surfers' Paradise, Zandvoort, Brands Hatch and Sepang, with plans to go to Interlagos, Laguna Seca, Montreal and India. And, hang, one look at the Automobile Club de Monaco's long term commitment to the IRC rather than the FIA's WRC shows which way the principality may jump, particularly given the allure of Ferrari...

Factor in the immediate availability of one (or both) German circuits, Silverstone, Magny-Cours, Toyota-owned Fuji, the Red Bull-controlled A1-Ring and either Jerez or Valencia's permanent track, plus previous A1GP circuits such as Brno, Shanghai and Estoril, and a ready-made calendar stares one in the face, one in which the manufacturers can accommodate their own series (having sold or scrapped A1GP's race hardware), with support programmes made by their own junior formulae – FBMW, FRenault or even DTM and touring cars.

autosport.com

 

[Centurion]

^^
Amazing news and I pray that teams are considering the option. It would unlock the handcuffs forever tying F1 to the tyranny of Max and Bernie. Finally the sport could be ruled by democracy and reopen the ports to technological breakthroughs.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

McMerc needs right now to officially, that's to say verbally, support the Ferrari/Renault/Toyota/Red Bull camp.

 

[bmer]

Max's proposal for 2010 season:

 

[chonkoa]

I am glad more teams are openly discussing pulling out of F1.
I am getting tired of the constant changing of the rules.
I think the big teams need to form their own championship.

 

[Remy Zero]

MILAN, May 13 2009 - What now? After the revolt of Ferrari and the other main constructors, which refuse a two-tier Formula 1, Max Mosley can not remain unyielding on his positions. It has to come in the open and decide whether he wants a championship with many small teams accepting to "spend less" or whether to go ahead with the big ones, which are willing to reduce costs but won't accept a championship made up of "Mayor" and "Minor" league teams, the latter (the "spend less"), being favoured by a number of technical facilities for the whole car, from the engine, to the aerodynamic and even 4-wheel drive machines.

The big five (Fiat-Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota) seem to be ready with an alternative WC outside FIA, with the commitment to deploy three machines each. And with none other than Valentino Rossi, who has already done several tests with the Maranello's cars. It would be an extraordinary move, both from a marketing point of view as for the sport.

Pino Allievi.

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formul...99643380.shtml

 

[Sunny]

I think there will be a Max-Bernie feud if Max doesn't give in. Max probably wants the teams out cause they wanted him out after the hooker scandal. But I doubt Bernie wants that, he is the holds the commercial rights and it is bad for business to loose Ferrari.

 

[Mr Robert]

The big five (Fiat-Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota) seem to be ready with an alternative WC outside FIA, with the commitment to deploy three machines each. And with none other than Valentino Rossi, who has already done several tests with the Maranello's cars. It would be an extraordinary move, both from a marketing point of view as for the sport.

Pino Allievi.

I'm really hoping this will happen!

 

[klier]

I am glad more teams are openly discussing pulling out of F1.
I am getting tired of the constant changing of the rules.
I think the big teams need to form their own championship.

Bingo! That's exactly what they should do.
Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault....they should all quit everything, leave Bernie and Max, and start their own race with their own rules.

 

[Gullwing]

start their own race with their own rules.

Turbo charged 6 liter V20 engine min(max rpm) at 25,000 running on Uranium 235.
Adjustable aero, brake, front/rear power bias...

 

[Imhotep Evil]

>
^ According to the latest the FIA-FOTA meeting failed and Ferrari is to go to the French courts where it will take out an injunction against the FIA's proposed rule changes.

 

[Deleted member 25]

This how it happened, Ferrari & Toy screwed it up royally.

On Friday at 11:00 the ten team principles met in a hotel at Heathrow Airport. FOTA president Di Montezemolo couldn't take part because his father had passed away a day earlier. The FOTA meeting was a stormy affair. Howett (FOTA vice president), Briatore and Domenicali wanted to convince the others of their opinion. The tenor: we speak with one voice and when Mosley starts talking about a budget cap we'll stand up and leave the room. Parr, Brawn and Mallya rejected this proposal. Their point of view: let's hear what Mosley has got to say. That's what this meeting has been summoned for. We're here to build racing cars and take them to races, not to do politics.

Divided as the teams were, three hours later they met with Mosley and Ecclestone for the supposed showdown. Mosley opened the meeting with a surprising offer: ''For the purpose of an amicable solution I make you a proposal. We give up on the idea of having a two-tier championship. This was created only to attract new teams anyway. We relinquish the monitoring of the cash flows within the teams to a specialised company (Deloitte). The FIA will not intervene. And, in case there are sound proposals for it, we're prepared to gradually introduce a budget cap. In case we're able to sort out everything then the FIA will be prepared to extend the 1998 Concorde Agreement to 2012.''

Having heard this Howett acted out of character. Up till that point he had expressed himself in a rather moderate way as far as a budget cap is concerned. But Toyota is the one that's got the most to lose. The Cologne based team would have to cut its budget by 80% to get to ₤ 40 million. He told Mosley: ''We will not talk about budget caps. We'll leave if this is to be an issue today.'' Howett stood up, so did Briatore and Domenicali. The rest of the principles remained seated. Mosley kept his cool addressing the Toyota boss: ''We've all got a lot to do. This meeting has been summoned to discuss all issues. Those that stand up behave in a childish way. When you're not willing to discuss this issue then let's all go home and not waste any time here.''

The three 'rebels' sat down again when they noticed that they were not being backed up by the others. Afterwards, one of the FIA-abiding men remarked: ''Howett isn't aware he's being used by Ferrari and Renault. They've sent him ahead in order for them not having to confront Mosley themselves.'' Then Mosley started asking the decisive question: ''There's no way back. We have to save and we need new teams. What are your arguments against a budget cap ? It rewards the most clever ones, not those that have the most money.''

The objectors of the budget cap didn't know what to answer. Instead, they made a counterproposal: ''We will discuss the matter and in two weeks time we'll come back with a solution that will save the same amount of money as a budget cap of ₤ 40 million.'' Mosley accepted this proposal on one condition: ''You only have one week. There's been enough talking.'' So on Friday in Monaco we might see the next episode of this theater. Unless Ferrari's judicial move against the FIA messes things up completely. The meeting in London was interrupted promptly when Mosley was notified about the fact that Ferrari had made an application against the FIA to a Paris court to block the 2010 rules. For Mosley this was very much an assault on the consolidation talks.

Since Alexander Mosley's funeral will take place on Monday (18th of May - AFCA) an exact date for the Monaco is yet to be determined. However, the FIA sees itself in an even stronger after Ferrari has taken legal steps. The FIA is of the opinion that, slowly but surely the others will notice that Ferrari is only fighting for itself and its exclusive rights. At some stage the teams that are now on Ferrari's side will realise that soon they could become a victim of Maranello's claim for power.

Some teams are already slagging off Ferrari: ''Surely, Ferrari is just afraid that they'll have to compete against us under equal preconditions. Till now they always had the most money, the best sponsors, the most expensive drivers.'' Mosley contradicts this perception: ''Ferrari shouldn't be afraid to operate with a budget cap. They have a lot of clever people on board. It's not at all necessary for them to spend three times as much as the others. It's this they simply have to understand.''

So after one and half hours the meeting abruptly came to an end. Just when some convergence between the parties was on the horizon Mosley received a text message from a lawyer that gives advice to the FIA in EU-competition law related matters. What it said was that Ferrari had taken legal steps against the 2010 regulations. Mosley immediately interrupted the meeting. ''There's no point in constructively continuing the talks when we're being taken to court behind our backs.'' Remarkably, Domenicali was just as surprised about the event as Mosley was. The Italian was aware that the Ferrari board of management was preparing to take legal action, but didn't know that the application would be made on that very Friday.

The case will be dealt with next Tuesday (19th of May). Ferrari relies on the power of veto against any rule change that the FIA had granted the Maranello based team on the 17th of January 2005. It was a 'gift' for Ferrari saying goodbye to the planned manufacturer racing serie GPWC. Ferrari's now relying on this veto right arguing that the FIA is willing to introduce a budget cap in 2010 without consulting the teams. According to FIA lawyers Ferrari's chances aren't high. Mosley: ''I'd be very surprised if the outcome will be in their favour.'' On the 17th of March this year Mosley proposed a budget cap of ₤ 30 million per year. There was a no Ferrari veto at all. The same goes for the the 9th of April when the World Council upped the proposed cap to ₤ 40 million.

Mosley defends his politics: ''We had to act after Honda's example made us realise that with the financial crisis more manufacturers could pull out at any time. We told the FOTA that we absolutely had to attract new teams. Thereupon we got the reply that they were willing to strive for guarantees of the manufacturers to stay in Formula 1 till 2012. To date there are no guarantees on the table. We were forced to act. The only chance to make Formula 1 attractive to new teams is the introduction of a budget cap. After the 17th of March we've asked the teams to discuss this issue various times. All of our requests were rejected. The first meeting was yesterday. And what do we hear there ? 'We're not prepared to talk about a budget cap'.''

Ferrari's playing with fire. The veto power they rely upon goes against every competition law of the European Commission. Meanwhile teams like Williams, Brawn GP and Force India have become clairaudient. They could complain against Ferrari's special treatment because the fact that Ferrari has an influence on every single rule change is a clear form of distortion of competition. What's more: Ferrari continues to plead for an open championship without a budget cap. From a competition point of view the budget remains a differentiating factor. Again, this could lead to the mentioned teams complaining against the bonus that Ecclestone pays to Ferrari.

Regardless of where Ferrari ends up in the championship, they get around $ 50 million more than any other team. This is a clear violation of any competition law when there's no cap to the budget. In case the verdict will be in Ferrari's favour next week then the FIA will immediately appeal the decision possibly reviewing their own policy true to the motto: with regard to EU law it was a mistake conceding extra rights to Ferrari.

Mosley can also see things from a positive perspective: ''The fact that Ferrari's taking this matter to court goes to show that they're willing to stay in Formula 1.'' The Englishman is still prepared to extend his hand to Di Montezemolo and co but puts one thing straight: ''A Formula 1 without Ferrari would be worth less than one with Ferrari. But Formula 1 would continue to exist. If we were of the firm opinion that in no case there would be a Formula 1 without Ferrari, then we would allow them to dictate the regulations to us and all the other teams. But that's not the case. If it would then we could hand over the governing tasks to Ferrari straight away.''

 

[Remy Zero]

Jody Scheckter has revealed that he has considered handing back his world championship. The 59-year-old South African, now a highly successful organic farmer, won his drivers' title for Ferrari in 1979 - an achievement not surpassed until Michael Schumacher broke through for the Italian team 21 years later.

As Formula One now grapples with the teams' major fight with the FIA over budget caps and governance methods, Scheckter told the BBC that he is appalled by the sport's leadership.

"The politics that have crept into Formula One, and the way that things are handled now, is very, very disappointing," said Scheckter, who won 10 races and retired after failing to defend his title in 1980.


"There have been stages when I have thought 'I am going to give back my world championship' because I have felt so strongly about it,” he continued.

"Some of the regulations and some of the decisions that have been made by the FIA in the last years I think have been terrible. I think the sport's going through a dictatorship that is going wrong, as most dictatorships go wrong sooner or later."

 

[Mr Robert]

I still hope this will happen. I hate the fact that FIA wants to cripple the competition in a series that should have no limits at all.

 

[EnI]

Limited budget is a good idea. Two-tier competition is not. Either one set of rules for all, or for nobody.

Although $40 million is a bit low number.

Also unified (FIA provided) technical solutions are also not a good idea. Regulations (tech wise) should be in the in the hands of teams - let's teams decide what to do. And then everybody is free to use budget as wished - either more for R&D, or more for driver's fee, or more for marketing etc.

But I guess Bernie & Max have a plan to lure in wealthy individuals to enter F1 circus with their "independent" teams.

The whole problem of the F1 circus is the fact there are both camps present there: manufacturer-owned teams, and private "independent" teams. Both camps with completely different interests & demands.

Therefore FIA should offer 2 Grand Prix series: one for "independent" teams with universal FIA-provided tech solutions (eg. F2 Series), and the other for car manufacturers: with almost no limits - all agreed within the teams themselves (eg. F1 Series).

Trying to have both camps in one single competition camp - via two-tier system - is not a good solution at all.


******

It's obvious F1 have to be divided in two separate competitions ... As said:

Eg. F1 series for "independent" teams with limited budget & FIA-provided unified tech - more focused on a driver then on a car. A race of individuals - driving skills are important, driver in main focus. Only 1 driver & car per team. No refueling during the race - no team tactics. Shorter race. Eg. only 75% of current distances.

The other - eg F2 - should should be about "big players" only - car manufacturers competing with cars & tech - drivers being in second plan. More a team work: 3 cars per team, only team championship counts. So - all 3 drivers scoring points for the team, not for themselves. Refueling allowed, so is tyre changing, and different team tactics. A team play.

One race per Sunday. One Sunday a F1 race, the other Sunday F2 race. On different tracks. Every week a spectacle.

 

[Giannis]

Very well said EnI!

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Statement from Ferrari:



'They couldn't almost believe their eyes, the men and women working at Ferrari, when they read the papers this morning and found the names of the teams, declaring that they have the intention to race in Formula 1 in the next year.

'Looking at the list, which leaked yesterday from Paris, you can't find a very famous name, one of those one has to spend 400 Euros per person for a place on the grandstand at a GP (plus the expenses for the journey and the stay).

'Wirth Research, Lola, USF1, Epsilon Euskadi, RML, Formtech, Campos, iSport: these are the names of the teams, which should compete in the two-tier Formula 1 wanted by Mosley.

'Can a World Championship with teams like them - with due respect - can have the same value as today's Formula 1, where Ferrari, the big car manufacturers and teams, who created the history of this sport, compete? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it Formula GP3?'



...



Jesus, these no names are turning F1 into another low tier no name championship.

Last time such no names where in they where the crashes-for-the-masses pay driver teams.

 

[Centurion]

Jesus, these no names are turning F1 into another low tier no name championship.

Last time such no names where in they where the crashes-for-the-masses pay driver teams.

That brings us back to what I said earlier, 40 million is a very small sum of money. Even a new millionaire or a boxer like Floyd Maywhether Jr can easily afford to join F1 with such budget constraints. It leaves no room for advanced R&D and like already stated it's more of a budget for Formula series where all teams hare chassi and engine.

Most no-name teams are pretty nervous now as starting an F1 team is about as certain as opening up a business in Zimbabwe. Rules change every year meaning that both the top teams and new comers are at risk of having their dreams and plans crushed.