Vs EVO: RS4 vs M3 V8 (including C63 review)

[klier]

The design it far from outdated. It's a very well designed and good looking interior. Some people wants buttons to some functions or the car to be easily accessible rather than having to navigate an annoying iDrive. Then again the current A4 does have quite some years on it's neck and the new model will off course have less buttons like the A5.
Personally I find the RS4 interior to be way more better looking compared with the C63 and M3 which have rather non inspiring looking interiors. Just look at the official pictures.

It's very outdated. You're used to different things perhaps, but I think it's very outdated. And I don't have to look at any pictures, I know exactly how the 3er and A4 look for the inside....and the A4 probably moreso than the 3er

The A4 is nothing more than a rip off from BMW's pre bangle design. Just more modern than that...slightly.

Aint much you can do about nothing as far I can see! It's a damn shame the critics feel the new M3's a bore in the looks department, with all the time they had this is the best they could come up with?! It outperforms the dated RS4 by the slimmest of margins! Did BMW know that Audi was coming out with a new RS4 which would perform even better than the current one?

The M3 beats the RS4.

The M3 should beat the S4/S5 only though.

The M3 CSL is meant to go against the A4/A5 line top model, the RS4/RS5

S5 ---> M3 coupe
RS5 ---> M3 CSL

Sorry to burst your bubble

I'll wait for the M3 CSL to go against the RS5...Let's wait and see how that'll turn out.

 

[Mr Robert]

PS, I still dislike BMW for not offering semi-R-tires for the M3 (it would improve the handling a lot) just like Audi and Mercedes are doing for the RS4 and C63. Also I don't like the idea that the M3 V8 is "only" getting 420hp.

You just have to wait for the top model of the 3-series like everybody else

 

[LaArtist]

wow i cant read the article..its to grainy..
would appriciate some better scans.. (C63 part only)

thanx for this though

other than that..i belive the M3 is a great car..EVO has told us..as many other reviews
but the gap is very narrow.. and that is versus a car wich they could benchmark it against..
M needs to rethink their strategy maybe.. if not the C63 then the new RS4 ( wich will come sooner this time) will beat the M3..
so for them to keep this car as it is for 7 more years.. is a NO go..
they could do that before when they kicked the competitions in the nutts..
but now they will have to update the car half way into its life imo

 

[RICHBOY]

It's very outdated. You're used to different things perhaps, but I think it's very outdated. And I don't have to look at any pictures, I know exactly how the 3er and A4 look for the inside....and the A4 probably moreso than the 3er

The A4 is nothing more than a rip off from BMW's pre bangle design. Just more modern than that...slightly.





The M3 beats the RS4.

The M3 should beat the S4/S5 only though.

The M3 CSL is meant to go against the A4/A5 line top model, the RS4/RS5

S5 ---> M3 coupe
RS5 ---> M3 CSL

Sorry to burst your bubble

I'll wait for the M3 CSL to go against the RS5...Let's wait and see how that'll turn out.

"Sorry to burst your bubble" That's funny as hell Klier! It must really suck after waiting so many years for the new M3 to arrive just to hear it's less entertaining to drive then the previous model, what's that like Klier? Doesn't it just eat you up? By the way, have you seen the new C63? It seems the press is loving it! It makes the M3 look dull at best, and there also saying it's a good chance it will outperform the M3 Sedan. It appears the tides have turned on the M3, no more M3 coupe recieving pointless prays for beating to much heavier sedans, now will see if BMW can earn there bones in both segments. I don't know Klier, specially with all the lack luster reviews we've read over the last view weeks!

335i coupe vs. S5
M3 coupe vs. RS5 vs. CLK63 BS
335i sedan vs. S4
M3 sedan vs. RS4 vs. C63 AMG

 

[Mr Robert]

335i coupe vs. S5
M3 coupe vs. RS5 vs. CLK63 BS
335i sedan vs. S4
M3 sedan vs. RS4 vs. C63 AMG

And again the top 3-series may not come and play? The other boys are not afraid, are they?

Why not compare M3 and S5? The difference in power was no problem when the M3 E46 was compared to the RS4 B7.

The comparison could instead have been (if the CSL would not have been ruled out as to good to handle, and that allready before it is presented):
RS5 vs CSL vs CLK BS
RS4 vs M3 sedan vs C63 BS
S5 vs M3 vs CLK 63

Edit: I think its clear that BMW has sought to widen the reach of the M3 marketwise, much like the S-cars from Audi (notably by excluding r-tires (found on RS-cars and AMG) from selectable options and furthermore based on the early reviews (which by the way always come out bad for new M3:s) that point at a more main stream product.

 

[RICHBOY]

And again the top 3-series may not come and play? The other boys are not afraid, are they?

Why not compare M3 and S5? The difference in power was no problem when the M3 E46 was compared to the RS4 B7.

The comparison could instead have been (if the CSL would not have been ruled out as to good to handle, and that allready before it is presented):
RS5 vs CSL vs CLK BS
RS4 vs M3 sedan vs C63 BS
S5 vs M3 vs CLK 63

The weight and size of the M3 E46 should be off set by the RS4's Power. Honestly I never liked such comparisons, why not start comparing the CL63 and the M5 or the RS6 against the M6? That's stupid! This will be the first time the comparisons make sense imo.

 

[Mr Robert]

That's stupid! This will be the first time the comparisons make sense imo.

Agree! But I just wonder why the CSL can't come and play? I'm guessing it will be out about the same time as the RS5. They will probably have quite different characteristics but they will both be top noch at what they do best... They will both be very Audi and very BMW.

 

[RICHBOY]

Agree! But I just wonder why the CSL can't come and play? I'm guessing it will be out about the same time as the RS5. They will probably have quite different characteristics but they will both be top noch at what they do best... They will both be very Audi and very BMW.

I welcome the comparison! The new frame Audi's using is far more capable then the previous one, and you saw what Audi was able to achieve with that one! I honestly don't believe the M3 CSL will be anymore capable then the RS5, don't forget where not comparing coupes and sedans anymore. The RS4 came and took the top position from the M3 and I expect nothing less from the RS5!

 

[Mr Robert]

I welcome the comparison! The new frame Audi's using is far more capable then the previous one, and you saw what Audi was able to achieve with that one! I honestly don't believe the M3 CSL will be anymore capable then the RS5, don't forget where not comparing coupes and sedans anymore. The RS4 came and took the top position from the M3 and I expect nothing less from the RS5!

Yes, the RS4 is a piece of work, on standard tires it is just as fast as an E46 M3 around a track!

Well, that is your opinion and since there is reviews saying both that the RS4 beat the E46 M3 (time around the ring (r-tires) and straigt line performance) and those saying it did not (Car & Driver and EVO for example), we can just leave it there

And now, even as Audi has come up with a coupé that we can compare with the new M3 we still have to compare it to the RS4 because it is the best A4 by far.

I think it will be a very interesting time up ahead. When BMW is designing the new CSL I think the hardest competitor to beat will be the old CSL. Audi does not have anything to live up to in the coupé department so they have much more freedom. My guessing is that the upcomming RS5 will not be built by the same principles as the CSL. Time will tell. I would wish for a slightly lighter version of the S5 with a pumped up RS4-engine. That would have made a nice RS5!

The glove is thrown as it seems, i believe the goal for both contenders, but especially for BMW, will be 7:50 on the ring!

 

[RICHBOY]

No, no more coupés against sedans, Audi is in the game now!

Well, that is your opinion and since there is reviews saying both that the RS4 beat the E46 M3 (time around the ring (r-tires) and straigt line performance) and those saying it did not (Car & Driver and EVO for example), we can just leave it there

And now, even as Audi has come up with a coupé that we can compare with the new M3 we still have to compare it to the RS4 because it is the best A4 by far.

I think it will be a very interesting time up ahead. When BMW is designing the new CSL I think the hardest competitor to beat will be the old CSL. Audi does not have anything to live up to in the coupé department so they have much more freedom. My guessing is that the upcomming RS5 will not be built by the same principles as the CSL. Time will tell. I would wish for a slightly lighter version of the S5 with a pumped up RS4-engine. That would have made a nice RS5!

So what purpose does the RS5 serve if you still feel the M3 coupe and the RS4 are rivals? I'm sure you've noticed that the critics also feel that it makes more sense to compare the CLK63 BS against the M3 coupe, rather then continueing the previous trend of comparing the C63 against it? I'm quit sure if the press was to compare the RS5 and the CLK63 BS against the M3 sedan, and they both outperformed it, as I expect they will, I'm pretty sure most the bimmer boys would cry foul! So why shouldn't that same idea apply with the M3 coupe, RS4, C63 comparisons? I see no better time then now for those bogus comparisons to stop!

 

[Mr Robert]

So what purpose does the RS5 serve if you still feel the M3 coupe and the RS4 are rivals? I'm sure you've noticed that the critics also feel that it makes more sense to compare the CLK63 BS against the M3 coupe, rather then continueing the previous trend of comparing the C63 against it? I'm quit sure if the press was to compare the RS5 and the CLK63 BS against the M3 sedan, and they both outperformed it, as I expect they will, I'm pretty sure most the bimmer boys would cry foul! So why shouldn't that same idea apply with the M3 coupe, RS4, C63 comparisons? I see no better time then now for those bogus comparisons to stop!

The purpose the RS5 serves is that we no longer have to compare the E92 M3 with the S5 since the Audi-fans does seem to think its not fair - for some reason. But then again there is the CSL that could be compared to the RS5. Last time around the CSL could not come and play because it was too good at the things that is awarded in this type of forum but this time Im sure that Audi has moved up positions making the CSL welcome. The RS4 should be compared to the E90 M3, when that arrives, but by that time the RS4 B7 will no longer be in production. Maybe the RS4 B8 is close by then? As of today RS4 against E92 M3 is the closest thing we get whitout massive complaint...

In reading reviews on the S5 i think one could, between the lines, find something really good. Audi seems to have numbed the S5 a bit (quite like BMW has done to the M3) in order to make way for a model above it. In an interview Audi said that they intentionally made the S5 a bit more like the typical Audi customer is used to in its behaviour than the technicians wanted - I take this as a direct positioning one step below the upcomming RS5, and a good way to make sufficient room.

Black Series feels like a move at what BMW does with their CSL:s so that comparison is obvious when it is posible.

 

[martinbo]

Uhh, this question everyone's asking as to why only 420hp in the M3...

Anyone here heard of the concept of contigency?

The old S54 straight six was at the limit of its capacity and output when it maxed out in the E46 CSL.

The new 10 cylinder and 8 cylinder blocks are just the beginning of a whole new range of M Power. Isn't it obvious that such a glaringly undersquare engine is nowhere near the limit of its potential?

I'm a massive fan of both the RS4 (I'm a vociferous proponent of AWD for those of you who didn't know...) and the M3.

If you're going to measure these cars in the correct context then one needs to consider the message sent out by the manufacturer of each one of these cars.

From Audi the message is this: This is the RS4, the ultimate and final incarnation of a long-standing stalwart. A fitting swan-song for the pinnacle A4. In short the RS4 is the night-watchman for the end of the line and it's an exceptional achievement.

From BMW the message is this: This is the new M3, the beginning of a whole new take on the super sports coupe theme that's become a long standing BMW tradition. It represents the best of what's here and now as well as giving a taste of better things to come.

Perspective isn't everything, but it's a big thing...

 

[RICHBOY]

The purpose the RS5 serves is that we no longer have to compare the E92 M3 with the S5 since the Audi-fans does seem to think its not fair - for some reason. But then again there is the CSL that could be compared to the RS5. Last time around the CSL could not come and play because it was too good at the things that is awarded in this type of forum but this time Im sure that Audi has moved up positions making the CSL welcome. The RS4 should be compared to the E90 M3, when that arrives, but by that time the RS4 B7 will no longer be in production. Maybe the RS4 B8 is close by then? As of today RS4 against E92 M3 is the closest thing we get whitout massive complaint...

In reading reviews on the S5 i think one could, between the lines, find something really good. Audi seems to have numbed the S5 a bit (quite like BMW has done to the M3) in order to make way for a model above it. In an interview Audi said that they intentionally made the S5 a bit more like the typical Audi customer is used to in its behaviour than the technicians wanted - I take this as a direct positioning one step below the upcomming RS5, and a good way to make sufficient room.

Black Series feels like a move at what BMW does with their CSL:s so that comparison is obvious when it is posible.

I disagree with your position on the CSL being to good to be compared, there simple wasn't a model offered by Mercedes and Audi for comparison. That's like saying the S65 AMG is simply to good for comparison, that wouldn't be true, it's just that BMW and Audi don't offer models in that segment. I believe the chief difference in are point of views will remain that you feel that C63, RS4 and the M3 coupe make for a fair comparison, and I don't. The achievements of the M3 CSL were outstanding, but there weren't any competitive models offered by Audi or Mercedes to compare it to imo. It was a car which required you to sacrifice comfort for performance, for that kind of money there shouldn't be any compremise! If the new CSL requires the same sacrifice from it's owners, and the RS5 and CLK63 BS offer both high performance and cruise ability then what has BMW achieved?

 

[Mr Robert]

If the new CSL requires the same sacrifice from it's owners, and the RS5 and CLK63 BS offer both high performance and cruise ability then what has BMW achieved?

We just have to se what happens! The CSL will probably be something like the Porsche GT3 in terms of concept - acceptable for road use just like the last one.

I think the CLK63, S5 and M3 makes a great comparison! CLK63 BS, RS4 and M3 does not. When the engine from the RS4(?) finds its way into the S5-shell the RS5 could easily replace the S5 in the comparison against CLK63 and M3. But where to put CSL and BS? Again, we have to se what happens! If my expectations are met the RS5 should absolutely outperform the E92 M3. The question is by how much and if by enough to justify piting it against the CSL instead of the regular M3. These things I do not know but i looking forward to finding out just how these six cars (S5 and RS5, CLK63 and CLK BS, M3 and M3 CSL) positions themselves against each other.

The best thing would ofcourse be if Audi and Mercedes would make something like the old CSL - I really like that type of car!

On the old CSL, no, the others did not make such a car from their A4 or C-class but then again, BMW did not make any 4WD V8 either: Different manufacturers + different philosophies = different cars.

 

[RICHBOY]

We just have to se what happens! The CSL will probably be something like the Porsche GT3 in terms of concept - acceptable for road use just like the last one.

I think the CLK63, S5 and M3 makes a great comparison! CLK63 BS, RS4 and M3 does not. When the engine from the RS4(?) finds its way into the S5-shell the RS5 could easily replace the S5 in the comparison against CLK63 and M3. But where to put CSL and BS? Again, we have to se what happens! If my expectations are met the RS5 should absolutely outperform the E92 M3. The question is by how much and if by enough to justify piting it against the CSL instead of the regular M3. These things I do not know but i looking forward to finding out just how these six cars (S5 and RS5, CLK63 and CLK BS, M3 and M3 CSL) positions themselves against each other.

The best thing would ofcourse be if Audi and Mercedes would make something like the old CSL - I really like that type of car!

On the old CSL, no, the others did not make such a car from their A4 or C-class but then again, BMW did not make any 4WD V8 either: Different manufacturers + different philosophies = different cars.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but won't the CLK63 BS have between 440-500hp? It's bad enough that the M3 weights less then the S5 but it also has a 66hp advantage! I just don't see any justification for such a comparison.

M3 420hp
CLK63 BS 440-500hp
S5 354hp (And possible heavier then both!)

I hate that Audi doesn't offer a RS4-R or RS5-R to combat BMW's M3 CSL and Mercedes CLK63 BS but they don't! So I guess the RS5 will have to do double duty.

 

[Zafiro]

CLK63 BS has 507hp and cost almost 3 times more than M3 and RS4. CLK63 BS also cost more than a M6.
CLK63 BS doesnt compete with M3 or RS5, thats nonsense. Dont forget there is a "normal" CLK63 with 481 hp.

 

[Mr Robert]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but won't the CLK63 BS have between 440-500hp? It's bad enough that the M3 weights less then the S5 but it also has a 66hp advantage! I just don't see any justification for such a comparison.

M3 420hp
CLK63 BS 440-500hp
S5 354hp (And possible heavier then both!)

I hate that Audi doesn't offer a RS4-R or RS5-R to combat BMW's M3 CSL and Mercedes CLK63 BS but they don't! So I guess the RS5 will have to do double duty.

I do not think your wrong and if you got the impression that I thaugt S5 vs CLK 63 BS is a good comparision I must say that i don't.

Ordinary CLK63 has 481 PS (CLK63 Black Series have a tad over 500) and that of course that too is a bit hard to handle for both the S5 and the M3. But from what I have understood both the S5 and the M3 are more driver oriented and therefore the comparison might work, of course it would be better if the S5 had gotten the engine from the RS4.

Reason why S5 vs M3 vs CLK63 is ok by me is that its the best two of the manufacturers got at this time. Black Series is just way out there in terms of price and power.

 

[RICHBOY]

CLK63 BS has 507hp and cost almost 3 times more than M3 and RS4. CLK63 BS also cost more than a M6.
CLK63 BS doesnt compete with M3 or RS5, thats nonsense. Dont forget there is a "normal" CLK63 with 481 hp.

That's true, I didn't realize it was the normal CLK63 AMG that competes with the M3 and RS5! So you see Dr. Dunkal, there's no way in the world the S5 can compete against such power! It would get murdered with a measley 354hp.

 

[Mr Robert]

That's true, I didn't realize it was the normal CLK63 AMG that competes with the M3 and RS5! So you see Dr. Dunkal, there's no way in the world the S5 can compete against such power! It would get murdered with a measley 354hp.

I think the M3 @ 420 ps will struggle too. But then again, there are other things then outright power to a car and that is where Audi and BMW will have to excell! Degree of enjoyment on the limit and in everyday dashes in the backroads. RS5 will, if the engine from the RS4 is used, have power on par with the M3.

 

[NarutoRamen]

So unfortunate that I don't have the time to read this right now!!! DAMN IT!!! But I will come back to this!