Exactly. If you can't drive a supercar then it's likely that one day you'll be embarassed by the likes of a Megane R26.R or a Clio 200 with a driver more comfortable with what they're driving.
EVO ECOTY 2011 Results
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Didn't you see my earlier post? They took delivery of the 370Z in July of '09. That would have given them plenty of time to "get used to it." Yet they deemed it unworthy of consideration for their year-end COTY shootout. So what you're really saying is that none of these COTY or BBDC or whatever tests are valid, because none of them have any meaningful number of cars that have been regularly used by the staff for 6 months. If this is what you have always believed, then why would you bother to read any of these test? That's just wasting your time. As is discussing about them on various forums all over the intraweb.
But you were bragging about how Matt Prior of Autocar was saying the 12C requires an intimate knowledge that someone of the caliber of Chris Goodwin would know. Ie, it seems to be built by racing drivers for racing drivers.
"Embarassed"? You seriously think your typical supercar owner cares that other drivers in other cars can beat him? I think only very few people, yourself obviously included, have such an insecure mentality. So the other guy beats me in his Megane. So what? I'm going home with a supercar.
You're still not getting the point about the real reasons why the McLaren wasn't rated the best. It has nothing to do with familiarity (debunked by their long-termers not being top-ranked, or not even considered for a shot).
Guibo, the intimate knowledge required to drive the 12C can be acquired by a more average driver with practice. Having read reports on mclarenlife, you just have to not be scared off by initial understeer out of bends, apply more steering and more throttle.
We're all human Guibo, and you be surprised what goes through the mind of supercar owners.
There are obviously certain cars that will never make ECOTY but for those that do, familiarity is a huge plus.
We're all human Guibo, and you be surprised what goes through the mind of supercar owners.
There are obviously certain cars that will never make ECOTY but for those that do, familiarity is a huge plus.
Why don't you post up those links? Here's one by someone who's driven it and felt the car lacked confidence and had poor braking response:
McLaren Life - View Single Post - Autocar's best driver's car
Something echoed by multiple sources, not just Evo. It's not like this is the first time Evo had ever driven the 4C either, so you can't blame a lack of experience here. And let's keep some perspective here: In the earlier group test, Evo noted strange handling sensations, as if the car was out to sea, at speeds well below 10/10ths where understeer would never even be an issue (but where the vast majority of enjoyable, fast driving takes place on public roads).
Again, you're missing the point: The McLaren wasn't rated second-best on account of understeer. If you want to follow up on Evo's feeling that the car simply felt like an unfinished work-in-progress, well, I can point to owners on mclarenlife or pistonheads feeling the exact same. By the same token, there are McLaren apologists on that forum who think McLaren are no different than any other manufacturer. Ie, other manufacturers have made bold claims in official press release about unprecedented levels of quality construction and customer satisfaction, and have had their own CEO's come out with public apologies testifying to the fact that such bold claims have thus far failed to materialize. Just like McLaren.
Yes, thanks for stating the blatantly obvious fact that we are all humans. What is also obvious is that, while you can point to plenty of owners suggesting very reasonable explanations for their McLaren purchase (technology, something different from Ferrari, looks, ride quality, adding another McLaren to a collection, possibly better residuals), you can't point to a single instance of a McLaren owner buying it because he's afraid that if he bought something else, he'd be slower in it or that he'd be embarassed by a hot hatch.
The simple fact is, there will be plenty of driver/car/road combos that will see off your typical monied supercar buyer as the slower one. That is just the unfortunate truth, nothing to be "embarassed" about. And in the rare exception that Mr. Moneybags is a half-decent driver, the difference between them will likely only manifest in extremely rare instances that they come upon each other on public roads, and most definitely at speeds that will result in incarceration. Just as the recent supercar comparos have said: "If one was faster than the other, it simply meant one driver was more irresponsible than the other. The sad reality is that today's supercars are simply too fast to properly enjoy at 10/10ths pace on public roads. Most any sane and reasonably enjoyable driving will take place at around 4-7/10ths. (Which is where a Megane driver with intimate knowledge of his own vehicle can exploit closer to its 10/10ths limit and thus be as fast or faster)."
(The odds that the supercar buyer can still pull the hotter ladies out of posh nightclubs or drive his rolling art into his mansion afterward: pretty damn good.)
This is where the 911's unique steering feel comes into play: it is apparently more involving and more consistent more of the time, so you can enjoy those sensory inputs at far less than 10/10ths pace. Of course, instant throttle response can also be felt and enjoyed at sane speeds (as can the sound), whereas by the time the turbos spool up, you might be nearer those ludicrous/jailbait speeds (without even enjoying the sound as much). In the similar sense that 300 mph in a Boeing jumbo jet can be less than thrilling than 300 mph in an Ariel Atom, a 70-mph corner may feel faster in the Porsche because you get the sensation of the speed (the sound, the movement of the suspension reacting to the road) whereas the McLaren, in all of its technical brilliance to muzzle these sensations, just might not be as enjoyable, despite carrying similar or even faster speeds. The context of how that speed arrives is more important than the actual speed itself. Evo is not alone in saying this. Car, Autocar, TopGear, Autoweek, etc, have all echoed similar sentiments about speed and what it's real-world ramifications should be to the enthusiast driver (not the enthusiast numbers cruncher).
Why is it so obvious that a 370Z would never make eCOTY? It's not like that's a horrible car to drive, is it?
If you have always felt that 6 mos of ownership is a minimum for all cars to be considered, then you shouldn't even have read this comparo, let alone post about it. You're just wasting your time even to merely comment on a foregone, biased conclusion that you shouldn't even have read in the first place.
Why don't you waste your time finding sources so your day can be as unproductive as mine?
Okay I will.
Had a test drive - oh dear.... - McLaren Forum at McLaren Life
Oh the Evo E911OTY competition? LMFAO.
Is ECOTY now a farce?
"Is ECOTY a farce now?" discussion on Evo Community
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/other-british-cars/256150-test-drove-mp4-12c-today.html
Ha. All you have is subjective nonsense from magazines about a car you've never been in.
Okay I will.
Had a test drive - oh dear.... - McLaren Forum at McLaren Life
Oh the Evo E911OTY competition? LMFAO.
Is ECOTY now a farce?
"Is ECOTY a farce now?" discussion on Evo Community
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/other-british-cars/256150-test-drove-mp4-12c-today.html
Ha. All you have is subjective nonsense from magazines about a car you've never been in.
I should not have to look for them as your post indicates you know exactly where they're at.
Looks like you can even stay on topic, for the topics that you yourself raise. In your previous post, you talked about owners learning to deal with the understeer, yet I don't see a single post in any of those threads talking about on-the-limit behavior as it relates to learning how to drive the car. Resentment/vandalism for Ferraris, yes, and a sidetrack discussion about the demographics of Tesco/Wal-Mart customers, but nothing about learning to push past the initial understeer. There is some talk about the on/off nature of the 12C's carbon brakes, so it looks like Evo/etc are not full of BS after all. And in fact, one of the guys says explicitly:
"I drove the MP4 on the streets so of course all I can say relates to spirited driving on the street, not at 10/10 on the track."
As for the 6speedonline thread, it looks like SRoser does a fair job of parotting you, if he is indeed not you under yet another alias. Same posting habits as mc_h/Mr.Ree/Z07/etc:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/other-british-cars/248582-mclaren-mp4-12c-test-drive-results.html
MP4-12C Acceleration Exposed
Ditto for the Evo thread, initiated by someone using the same creepy-faced avatar that your other username "mc_h" uses on nagtroc. Simply because someone starts a thread, that actually means Evo's credibility is undermined? No, that's just dissention at work, and more proof of crybabies who apparently didn't have any problem with Evo verdicts before.
I've never said that McLaren is a bad car or that it's a POS, which also reflects the opinions of multiple reputable sources who have driven the MP4-12C. As merely a passenger, you are in no position of greater authority than they are. This is also the exact opposite of you, who has never even seen the LFA and concluded that it was a POS. You can't argue yourself out of your blatant hypocrisy.
If you spent more time reading and less time posting you'd find them.
McLaren Life - View Single Post - Autocar's best driver's car
McLaren Life - View Single Post - Autocar's best driver's car
McLaren Life - View Single Post - Autocar's best driver's car
McLaren Life - View Single Post - Autocar's best driver's car
Off topic but did any of you see the BBC2 program of the building of a supercar - McLaren MP4-12C, very interesting I thought.
BBC iPlayer - How to Build...: Series 2: A Super Car
BBC iPlayer - How to Build...: Series 2: A Super Car
Hang on Guibo. I thought I was Mycroft on Evo forums? You're losing it bra'. What has the LFA done for motoring? By comparison McLaren have offered a car that can't be touched to 150mph, beats its competitors on the majority of tracks and glides over bumps whilst beating gas guzzler tax and offering GT equipment levels. There isn't another car that does all those things.
Deckhook - I did watch that and a lot of others should watch it too, particularly people who think brake steer is the same as an e-brake diff or ASM.
Deckhook - I did watch that and a lot of others should watch it too, particularly people who think brake steer is the same as an e-brake diff or ASM.
^ Never seen the building of a Ferrari or Lamborghini but what I took from this program on the MP4-12C was how incredibly engineered this car was, the attention to detail was astonishing. 
In my mind it's an F1 driver's type of car were the final millisecond is more important than anything else. Knowing how well received the orginal McLaren was I can't believe that this one is devoid of the same kind of thrill to drive, is it less enjoyable than a GT3RS or 458 who knows but I would guess it's a more complete and versatile motor car than either of them.
In my mind it's an F1 driver's type of car were the final millisecond is more important than anything else. Knowing how well received the orginal McLaren was I can't believe that this one is devoid of the same kind of thrill to drive, is it less enjoyable than a GT3RS or 458 who knows but I would guess it's a more complete and versatile motor car than either of them.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
Perhaps you should read it. 
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
You linked to the same user twice. That user roundincircles said:
"The stiff chassis also need acclimatisation as you have to trust where the limit is as it's on a different level but a track session would answer a lot of questions."
Erm...these mags have had multiple track sessions. Pretty much all the major British press tested the car at the intro on the Portimao circuit. Evo had a shot again on Bedford, then back again at Portimao for eCOTY. Autocar's own Matt Prior recounted the method to extract the best out of the McLaren, so it's not exactly a mystery to them. Yet the 12C still finished well down on the list of BBDC. There goes the theory about a lack of familiarity.
And by admission in your quote, the cars aren't sorted. In other words, McLaren released an unfinished product. But anyone with an ounce of objectivity would have realized this the moment that the company's own CEO admitted his company had thus far failed to deliver on the promise.
You have been multiple characters within the same thread before...
I can. The F1 has one of the most truly epic roadcar engines. A monster of a naturally aspirated motor, built by arguably the best in the business, with the kind of electric throttle response via individual throttle bodies and a sound that turbo motors can only dream of, even to this day. Many who have experienced it say it sounds like a Le Mans racer, not just in the timbre of the motor but in the sensation of induction that sounds like its coming from the roof. Which it is, and the relationship is not a tenuous one. Secondly, there's the lack of power steering, which can aid in road feel. Thirdly, the central driving position is largely unique, outside of a rare prototype like Ferrari's 1966 365P (which likewise had a mid-mounted V12):^ Never seen the building of a Ferrari or Lamborghini but what I took from this program on the MP4-12C was how incredibly engineered this car was, the attention to detail was astonishing.
In my mind it's an F1 driver's type of car were the final millisecond is more important than anything else. Knowing how well received the orginal McLaren was I can't believe that this one is devoid of the same kind of thrill to drive, is it less enjoyable than a GT3RS or 458 who knows but I would guess it's a more complete and versatile motor car than either of them.
Fourthly, the lack of electronic controls (like ABS, traction control, ESP) means it's totally up to the driver's brain and quick reflexes to control all of that power. The upshot, as it relates to the 12C, is more consistent responses.
Fifthly, the two cars are largely the result of two very different men. It's apparent from reading Gordon Murray's remarks and Ron Dennis's through the years that the two have very different ideas about what they value in road cars. Murray understands the value of the subjective and realizes that sports cars should be about the passion for fun. He blasted the Veyron for its somewhat silly pursuit of an objective performance metric, top speed, and praises cars like his Lotus Elan. The F1 also had a supple suspension, as it was more designed to be a great road car rather than built for track work, but it didn't exactly hide bumps the way the 12C apparently does.
Contrast that to Ron Dennis, who stated in TopGear about the 458:
"But choose any value, any measure, and our car will exceed it. We have always been passionate about measuring things scientifically. And we can prove scientifically that ours is the best sports car in history."
I know certain McLaren fanboys will probably get a woody from hearing that, but it sorta makes my skin crawl. When the chief test driver says he prefers testing in the company's F1 simulator rather than actually driving on a real road or track, you can kind of understand the end result.
It may be more complete and versatile than other cars, but some would say that's entirely not the point of a supercar or one that is engaging and thrilling to drive. Some would say a car that actively tries to hide an aspect of the sensation of speed is taking a step backward. A car like the GT3 RS or 458 probably feels more fun more of the time, as it relays those sensations that the 12C filters out.
Beemer B773ER
Tire Trailblazer
Reading that, I'd say the 12C has no soul. It's sterile, it's clinical, it's robotic and completely quantitative. That's great if all the driver cares about is numbers.
But some of the greatest sport/super cars in history weren't necessarily the fastest, but rather the most stirring, the most emotive and the most exciting to drive.
This reminds of the Top Gear episode where the self-confessed Porsche fanboy Richard Hammond preferred the Ferrari F40 over his beloved Porsche 959.
