EVO ECOTY 2011 Results

[Deckhook]

The point I was making was that it's human nature to be swayed by our own experience and preferences, meaning if you own something then you are more inclined to favour that particular product, we all do, I do, you do, everyone on here does it so why assume a motor jornalist wouldn't either. It's as you said, if they bought it with their own money then they clearly prefer it over something else.

 

[Sunny]

if you own something then you are more inclined to favour that particular product.

I don't know about you, but most people with common sense buy things that they already like/prefer. Not own it first and then start liking it.

In the case of Chris Harris, his preference is for raw unadulterated cars, GT3 is a car that offers that in spades, so he likes GT3, in fact he likes it so much he buys it with his own money, meanwhile, he also votes for it ecoty for the exact same reason. The bias in this case is "the type of car he prefers", not the fact that he owns a GT3. If you can't see the distinction between the two, I am sorry I can't help you.

 

[Deckhook]

I don't know about you, but most people with common sense buy things that they already like/prefer. Not own it first and then start liking it.

Couldn't agree more but I think by way you have commented here you must thought I was saying something different, that why I said 'our own experience and preferences', preferences meaning it's what we like and experience comes from ownership. OK maybe I should have reversed these two words but you get the picture.

In the case of Chris Harris, his preference is for raw unadulterated cars, GT3 is a car that offers that in spades, so he likes GT3, in fact he likes it so much he buys it with his own money, meanwhile, he also votes for it ecoty for the exact same reason. The bias in this case is "the type of car he prefers", not the fact that he owns a GT3. If you can't see the distinction between the two, I am sorry I can't help you.

Preferring a raw unadulterated car/s means you are bias to that types which was the point of my post, facts and figures are the ONLY unbiased part of a roadtest everything else becomes one person's preference for a particular style of driving over another.

Do you not think that this is a fair comment.

 

[FromageFrais]

Only a moron would assume the only reason a journalist likes/prefers a GT3 cause he/she owns one when the more commonsense answer is other way around - he/she owns one cause he/she likes it that much in the first place. I can't think of a more profound statement of preference by a journalist than voting with his/her own money.

But that's no different from everyone else in that respect. They all vote with their own money. However when it comes to things like 'feel', that is highly subjective and likely to be based on the feel of vehicles you have become accustomed too.

 

[FromageFrais]

The point is that given the history of eCOTY, it is clearly evident that they believe from the very out-set that a 911 offers the ideal feel. That decision has original foundations not just in ownership but also in professional racing, just as it does for HvS of Sport Auto. Therefore any car that offers something different to the 911 in the way of feel has automatically shot wide of the mark.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the criteria you're being measured against is that of a 911, then you obviously can't beat a 911. It's like auditioning for the part of Brad Pitt in a film based on Brad Pitt. Brad Pitt will win the audition everytime.

 

[Deckhook]

^ I liked the Brad Pitt part. Very funny.

 

[Zafiro]

Porsche are doing well in every test, not only this one. Its funny to read about conspiracy theories in this thread.

LOL

 

[Guibo]

Couldn't agree more but I think by way you have commented here you must thought I was saying something different, that why I said 'our own experience and preferences', preferences meaning it's what we like and experience comes from ownership. OK maybe I should have reversed these two words but you get the picture.
Preferring a raw unadulterated car/s means you are bias to that types which was the point of my post, facts and figures are the ONLY unbiased part of a roadtest everything else becomes one person's preference for a particular style of driving over another.

On the first count, I don't think it's particularly true that ownership or familiarity with each others' cars breeds the bias that will make any difference. Cases in point: the longtermers on Evo's fleet in past years have not done particularly well when thrown into the eCOTY mix. Some were deemed so dynamically off-pace as to not even merit consideration (370Z). Some longtermers have placed poorly (Mazda MX-5 2.0, 11th out of 13 cars). Others have done well, like the Renaultsport 200 Clio; but is that bias? Not necessarily; in the same year, AutoExpress and Car also put that car within the top 5 or 6 out of 20-30 cars too. And I can't think of Autocar nor AutoExpress editors who actually own a GT3 RS or 458 that likewise placed on top of McLaren.
On your second point, are you suggesting that the winner should be picked based purely on objective statistics? If you say that facts and figures are unbiased, you'll find quite a lot of fans at McLaren life believing quite the opposite whenever an MP4-12C loses in a track test. Our resident McLaren fan here said the only way McLaren can possibly lose is if Ferrari cheated, or if they used a prototype vs a production car, if the sun was in Ben Collins's eyes, etc...

Ok, so a magazine whose tagline is "The Thrill of Driving" (and not "The Thrill of Wafting") has a bias toward raw unadulterated cars...surprising? I think you guys are still missing the point: Other cars (McLaren, Lotus, Cayman R) all fell down on reasons other than ownership/bias. Does one have to own a McLaren to understand it will not make the kind of noises an RS 4.0 makes? Does one have to own a McLaren to understand that the car in test felt like an unfinished product?

It's like auditioning for the part of Brad Pitt in a film based on Brad Pitt. Brad Pitt will win the audition everytime.

Every time. So how is it possible that various Ferraris (599, 458), Lotus, Pagani, BMW, Honda, Lamborghinis (Murciealgo and Gallardo), TVR, and Nissan have beaten 911s in eCOTY?

Repeating to mc_h/FromageFrais:

Is it your contention that the winner should be decided on the basis that it's easier for the average person to extract the most from it? Ie, faster pace in the hands of normal people?

:all ears:

 

[Sunny]

Preferring a raw unadulterated car/s means you are bias to that types which was the point of my post, facts and figures are the ONLY unbiased part of a roadtest everything else becomes one person's preference for a particular style of driving over another.

Yes, Evo is biased towards cars that offer a more unadulterated drive - it is no secret, they have said it time and time again. They have even coined a term for it - "evoness". So if you don't share there taste for cars, don't read the magazine, let alone be in a thread that discuss the result from that magazine. I don't share the criteria "consumer report" uses to compare cars, so I don't read that magazine nor diss the reason why they picked car A over B . So do the people who do appreciate what Evo stands for and stop posting in this thread. The same shift has come up when you were "footie". You are just doing it all over again.

It's like auditioning for the part of Brad Pitt in a film based on Brad Pitt. Brad Pitt will win the audition everytime.

A better analogy would be - a director has an audition for a raw role, Danny Day Lewis wins the role like he won the previous few times, Arnold Schwarzenegger fans start crying foul - "oh look, Arny didn't win despite the 43" biceps".

 

[Deckhook]

You aren't right in that if you don't like what they preach then don't read it because their evaluation of a car is still worth reading.... even if you don't always agree with their outcome.

 

[martinbo]

And that's what it boils down to, the EVO culture either resonates with you or it doesn't. If you don't like what they stand for, don't buy it and don't read it. I'm miles away from being a "great" driver in the Harris, Barker, Meaden, Catchpole, Green and even Sutters idiom but what I am still is an enthusiastic driver who has had the great privilege to be involved with various forms of advanced driver instruction over the last 8 or 9 years.

Just the other day I had the opportunity to hoon about the skidpad and exercise my skills in power oversteer in an STI. I know for a fact that I'd be better off in a Cayman R or a 1M or even a C63 but hey, beggars can't be choosers. The point is, I've had the good fortune to drive more cars than Joe Average and I've been amazed at how my experiences and impressions have tracked those of my favourite publications / journos.

What many people are missing is that not all of EVO's writers placed the Porsche first or ranked the 1M as highly - even their team has different camps of likemindedness. The McLaren scored commendably within the panel and could easily have won it if, let's say, Bovvers was still on the payroll and not Monkey Harris. But, this is the essence, the current pervasive culture within EVO at present and given the broad spread of talent, knowledge, acumen and experience of the panel as a whole, the ECOTY verdict is as definitive as one can get from any performance car publication available. You have to be an EVO regular to get it.

 

[Cashmere]

Chris has used his own cars several times in other reviews. e.g. the one below where he puts his own M3 against the GT3 and a R35. There is no hint of a bias and he simply points out the flaws of the M3 (despite it being his own) and even the GT3 when comparing it to the R35.

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[FromageFrais]

Every time. So how is it possible that various Ferraris (599, 458), Lotus, Pagani, BMW, Honda, Lamborghinis (Murciealgo and Gallardo), TVR, and Nissan have beaten 911s in eCOTY?

Maybe they got the part of Brad Pitt as a child??

 

[Mr Robert]

Given the fundamental attributes of the actor that is mr Pitt, I'd say he was a lot harder to beat 10 years ago... but hey, that's just me... some even think that later Porsches are better than earlier. Strange thing

 

[Guibo]

Maybe they got the part of Brad Pitt as a child??

Or maybe you need to think up better analogies??

3rd time, "Fromage": Is it your contention that the winner should be decided on the basis that it's easier for the average person to extract the most from it? Ie, faster pace in the hands of normal people?

 

[Zafiro]

I can't wait when EVO get their hands on 2013 Ford Shelby GT500

 

[FromageFrais]

The chances of them being overly impressed by something with a solid rear-axle is somewhere between zero and zero.

 

[FromageFrais]

Or maybe you need to think up better analogies??

3rd time, "Fromage": Is it your contention that the winner should be decided on the basis that it's easier for the average person to extract the most from it? Ie, faster pace in the hands of normal people?

I think the winner should be decided after they've owned each car for 6 months and driven it everyday. That is obviously not possible but it's the only way to eliminate the 'what you're used to' factor.

 

[Zafiro]

I think the winner should be decided after they've owned each car for 6 months and driven it everyday. That is obviously not possible but it's the only way to eliminate the 'what you're used to' factor.

Its impossible yes but I listen to whats been done. It least its not some amateurs that doesnt know how to drive that did this test.

 

[Deckhook]

I'm all on for a car challenging it's driver (up to a point and depending on their skills) but too many people buy these so called sportscars car on pure bragging right and the notion of what they are capable of in the right hand without themselves being even able to get within a 60% of what the car is actually capable of.

The best laugh is going to a trackday and watching the big exotic leaving the little guy for dead down the straights only to get swallowed up in the corners........ talk about over estimating their ability.