Vs Edmunds Inside Line - Comparison Test: 2007 Audi RS 4 vs. 2007 BMW M5 Manual

[Merc1]

It's a terrifically bad idea to design a car with the weight of a V8 engine hung entirely over the front axle. It hurts weight distribution, generates a lot of polar moment of inertia, overworks the front tires and brakes, upsets ride quality and makes the steering heavier.

None of this seems to matter in the 2007 Audi RS 4. Using just such a layout, Audi has managed to out-fun the 2007 BMW M5, one of the world's most respected driver's cars. And it's done so for tens of thousands of fewer dollars.

The RS 4 didn't succeed all alone, though. It had help from the competition.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=119784#2

M

 

[Deutsch]

Marcus!

You're the biggest P-I-M-P ever for posting this story. You dah man, man!!!

 

[bmer]

Just shows how much of a mistake is was for BMW to make the manual version. DCT is the only way to go in the future for M5.

 

[Zafiro]

I blame the americans for forcing BMW to develop Manual gearbox for M5. There is a reason why manual M5 wont be offered in Europe.


Oh, but we switched off the stability control, right? Sour news, Jack; the DSC cannot be defeated in a BMW M5 when it's equipped with the manual transmission. No powerslides or burnouts, and you can also forget about the kind of throttle inputs that might influence the M5's cornering attitude.

 

[Osnabrueck]

Sometimes you have to watch what you wish for. We all thought a manual M5 would be a Godsend. Boy were we wrong.

 

[Zafiro]

I cant wait to see the new M3 rape the more heavier M5. Once again, M3 will be the ultimate M car, the drivers car thats why M3 always been my favorite BMW

 

[Tumbo]

Audi has managed to out-fun the 2007 BMW M5, one of the world's most respected driver's cars. And it's done so for tens of thousands of fewer dollars.

What a perfect start on my day. Amen!

 

[cawimmer430]

I blame the americans for forcing BMW to develop Manual gearbox for M5. There is a reason why manual M5 wont be offered in Europe.


Oh, but we switched off the stability control, right? Sour news, Jack; the DSC cannot be defeated in a BMW M5 when it's equipped with the manual transmission. No powerslides or burnouts, and you can also forget about the kind of throttle inputs that might influence the M5's cornering attitude.

In fairness, BMW could also have developed a capable manual transmission solely for the M5 instead of simply sourcing one from the stock models. Kind of seems a little half-hearted, don't you think?

Here's what people are saying on Carspin about this comparison.

http://www.carspin.net/forums/the-fast-lane/m5-vs-rs4.0.html

 

[bum-man]

Americans got what we wanted just half assed attempt...It's BMW's fault for not doing it right.

 

[Zafiro]

In fairness, BMW could also have developed a capable manual transmission solely for the M5 instead of simply sourcing one from the stock models. Kind of seems a little half-hearted, don't you think?

Here's what people are saying on Carspin about this comparison.

http://www.carspin.net/forums/the-fast-lane/m5-vs-rs4.0.html

SMG is built around the M5 engine, a manual was never even going to go into production. BMWs intention was not to give the M5 a manual, only SMG. Its thanks to pressure from some "enthusiasts" that forced to BMW to build the Manual. There was no time to wait and develop the manual further, just through it out on the market and get rid of the pressure. A manual wont come to Europe becuase noone is whining there.

Luckily a manual is coming from the start for M3 so now BMW dont need to hurry up with a manual if someone whine.

 

[EnI]

M5 with manual transmission is not a real M car!


E60/1 was not designed to feature manual transmission.

From the start of development the goal was to pair engine & SMG perfectly.
Then, when M5 was launched BMW NA started to complain BMW could lose some image of "Ultimate Driving Machine" in USA due not offering a manual transmission in M5. And they were very persistent due "great" interest in manual gearbox - despite all data showed SMG II in M3 was very well received, and so was SMG III.

BMW AG than decided to offer manual just for the sake of it - not developing new gearbox to fit S85 engine & M5 chassis, but offered a compromised solution.

Potential customers who wanted manual gearbox in M5 for any price were told in advanced that with that specific gearbox M5 would lose quite of its performance ability. But majority of the customers didn't mind and wanted manual anyway - just for a sake of stick & clutch pedal. And they got it.

M engineers can tell you manual M5 is an "unwanted child" - even more: a child not conceived by M///. Kind a foster child nobody really wants / likes.


On the other hand E92 M3 is designed to feature a manual transmission - so the result will be MUCH better than in M5 case.

 

[bmer]

It's BMW's fault for not doing it right.

I don't think there are many manuals on the market that can handle such power and torque as well as being enough dynamic by M standards.

 

[cawimmer430]

SMG is built around the M5 engine, a manual was never even going to go into production. BMWs intention was not to give the M5 a manual, only SMG. Its thanks to pressure from some "enthusiasts" that forced to BMW to build the Manual. There was no time to wait and develop the manual further, just through it out on the market and get rid of the pressure. A manual wont come to Europe becuase noone is whining there.

Luckily a manual is coming from the start for M3 so now BMW dont need to hurry up with a manual if someone whine.

Yep, I know about that. BMW reacted to the pressure from America. Still, something like this should not have happened in the first place. I mean, didn't BMW's market research tell them that M fans expect a manual transmission?

Need to go, Swedish vampire movie on TV now.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbiten

 

[Centurion]

I blame the americans for forcing BMW to develop Manual gearbox for M5. There is a reason why manual M5 wont be offered in Europe.


Oh, but we switched off the stability control, right? Sour news, Jack; the DSC cannot be defeated in a BMW M5 when it's equipped with the manual transmission. No powerslides or burnouts, and you can also forget about the kind of throttle inputs that might influence the M5's cornering attitude.

Any idea why BMW didn't put a DSC switch in the Manual M5?

 

[Zafiro]

Yep, I know about that. BMW reacted to the pressure from America. Still, something like this should not have happened in the first place. I mean, didn't BMW's market research tell them that M fans expect a manual transmission?

Need to go, Swedish vampire movie on TV now.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbiten

BMW sold more SMGII for M3 E46 than they sold manuals in europe. In US its about 50/50.

I've seen that movie and it sucks bad Caw

 

[Zafiro]

Any idea why BMW didn't put a DSC switch in the Manual M5?

I read the explanation but cant remember where, probably somewhere on m5board.com

EDIT: Only thing I found for now is this;

Without the benefit of computer control for the opening and closing of the clutch plates, M division’s engineers couldn’t eliminate axle tramp under hard take-offs. The only solution was to make it impossible to fully switch out the DSC stability system, although you can still employ the half-way house M Dynamic mode which is probably enough for all but the most crazed sideways obsessives.

But punters in the US aren’t happy at what they see as a compromised M car. Which must be incredibly frustrating for M boss Gerhard Richter, who never believed a manual box was right for the car and was only bowing to commercial and boardroom pressure.

BMW has no plans to bring the manual M5 to Europe. And it doesn't sound like we should be too upset.

 

[EnI]

YI mean, didn't BMW's market research tell them that M fans expect a manual transmission?

Such "fan" base was really marginal - that's why BMW decided not to offer manual in the first place. M5 was all about F1 technology: active chassis (EDC, launch control), V10 high-rev engine, SMG gearbox etc. When tested that decision on focus group & targeted population sample responses were very positive. In such vehicle a majority preferred an ultra performance semi-auto gearbox with steering wheel shifting paddles, and not a stick.

Mind that manual in M5 is there mainly due the image, and has nothing to do with a "huge demand". It is there to support "Ultimate Driving Machine" claim - in a way traditionalists see it: with a stick & clutch pedal.

A vast majority of M5s sold in USA is equipped with SMG, not manual.

I really do not know what was the BMW NA's problem.

They also caused "troubles" when BMW announced 335i would feature N54 bi-turbo.

I guess there is a circle of very influential ultra-conservative traditional BMW aficionados in USA who reject new tech in BMW vehicles, and want BMW to stay deep in 20th century with noisy gas-guzzling engines, manual gearboxes, without electronic nannies etc.

Such aficionados are usually called "The guardians of the past".

Or, like I love to call them : Opas.


The fact is the BMW customer base is changing, and so are the demands - and according to demands so do the vehicles.

(Un)Fortunately the company has to follow the future trends & tech - and react to the general demand. But doing this within the core brand values, and with a lot of respect to the past, tradition & history.

 

[cawimmer430]

BMW sold more SMGII for M3 E46 than they sold manuals in europe. In US its about 50/50.

I've seen that movie and it sucks bad Caw

I see, thanks.

Yep, this movie sucked. I hate horror films which are funny. And the cops were the worst actors in this movie.

 

[Merc1]

I guess I don't see how BMW could think that going from a manual only car (the previous M5) to no manual at all in the new M5 was the right thing to do, no matter what their "research" told them. Part of BMW's charm is a precise manual gearbox so cancelling it for the new M5 was a huge mistake IMO. A rare mistake by BMW's M division. They should have just developed and offered both from the very beginning of M5 development, like on other M cars.

M

 

[Deutsch]

BMW sells the bulk of it's car here, I don't know what share of E60 M5's the U.S. mkt. accounts for but I'm more than sure it's a nice slice of total production. That said, BMW has an immensely strong and loyal following here in the states, there isn't a shortage of BMW's anywhere here, so it only makes sense that BMW wanted to cater to American M enthusiast because they knew there were actually buyers for this car, waiting w/ blank checks in hand. Can't say that this will happen in the future though, especially w/ the fine tuning that is currently being done on the dual clutch gearbox as it is readied for production.