Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters news, races, teams, drivers, and motorsport discussion.
KiwiRob
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The Aussies never really liked Jim, probably because he is a kiwi and awesome!! Just like they don't like Scott and Shane today who are kicking Aussie butt.
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Yeah, I think it was mostly the car
The Group A E24's sounded glorious, heard a couple at full chat at Silverstone.
KiwiRob
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Yeah, I think it was mostly the car
The Group A E24's sounded glorious, heard a couple at f...
I'm old enough to have watched the JPS 635 race at Pukekohe in the early 80's before it was replaced with the M3. I never realised the Group A 635's were CSI's not M635's, they didn't use the Msport twincam 24v engine.
Group A was the best era of touring car racing, DTM, Japan GT, V8 Supercars, BTCC don't come close. It was also the best ear for rallying after Group B.
Wunderkind
Chicane Challenger
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Not really, Jim was and is still well liked by many Aussies (myself included). I think many Aussie V8 Supercar fans turned on him because he won so many races in the Nissan GT-R in the 1990's, including two Bathurst 1000 victories (he famously told the V8 fans off by calling them a pack of a-holes on the winners podium).
KiwiRob
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I remember the pack of arseholes speach, I watched it live.
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It was a different era, the way the cars move around on track is unlike anything we have today. It didn't always make for the best racing, but you could really see the drivers working for it. Downforce levels and tyre tech make modern touring cars look absolutely on rails by comparison.
KiwiRob
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It not as much fun to watch today.
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Seems Audi saw this picture and got scared.
From Touring car Times:
Just for clarity, they're saying a bid to realign its racing commitments towards becoming a carbon-neutral footprint manufacturer.... and Audi AG stated it has made this decision taking into consideration the economic and financial challenges ahead due to the COVID-19 pandemic.
So, an alternate translation might be.. Since our parent company is still busy getting done dry by the cactus of Dieselgate in it's rear-end thanks to the continual legal cases against it, we're going to use COVID-19 as an excuse to leave, and pretend it's because we care about our brand's emission related image... even though we evidently, don't.
It goes without saying this leaves DTM in a near fatal situation. Your move BMW.
KiwiRob
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I party agree with you but I also think C19 will have changed so many people opinions on global warming, we can see the effects of turning off industry and less vehicles on the road. Motorsport will suffer until more manufacturers and fans get on board with BEV’s. If DTM were smart (ditto V8 Supercars) they would jump straight into a BEV touring car formula, really what do they have to loose, both series are dead after his season.
M.N.D
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WOW! I was between expecting this at some point and trying to have a bit of hope for DTM
What will happen now? Will ITR try to bring some of the Japanese into participating? All of these efforts of class one and unifying the platforms will go into the rubbish bin if DTM will die out.
I'm not going to assume that DTM is officially out even though the prev indications said otherwise, as a motorsports fan I'm sad, and as a BMW Motorsport fan, I'm also sad, but as long as WSR is invloved with BMW in BTCC, that's more than enough for now...
I'm trying to get into e-sports and e-racing, but I don't know, I'm not having the same excitement as I get the feeling that I'm watching some recorded replay... 'll try to watch it again and see if I'll change my mind.
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Audi have been itching for an excuse since the Mercedes announcement. I don't doubt for a second C19 is going to take it's toll on motorsport, but it's not the reason why Audi find themselves where they are.
I'd suggest prioritising R & D budgets means motorsport is already suffering somewhat because of the shift to electrification.
I doubt it's that simple, even on paper. EV's simply are not able to produce racing to anything like the format DTM or Supercars needs, I was looking forward to E-TCR, but the format's a joke, and the [Tesla] Electric GT series has run out of juice... And the road relevance - paper thin already - would be even smaller since these types of cars don't exist yet as EV's. DTM needs something now, and EV's are not yet ready for 'proper' circuit racing. Formula E barely manages on the type of circuits they race... and frankly, without proper - purpose built - circuits being included, motorsport loses a lot of its appeal, for me at least...
A lot rests on BMW, and Gerhard Berger now.
If Berger can get an agreement from another manufacturer, probably one of the Japanese ones, to run a full contingent of cars (albeit with some independent support), I'd imagine BMW would remain committed. If there is no sign of anything, I do not think BMW will stick around beyond 2021, and maybe only if it's feasible to run DTM as a one marque series... which it may not be if interest drops off considerably, which it might.
BMW could reassign a smaller effort to Super GT, for the sake of keeping the embers of the regulation set alive.
The other option is DTM Trophy is promoted, in its first proper season, to the top line series, and DTM becomes a GT4 based series.
Or, just stop the series.
My big fear for the latter - and I've got no direct evidence for this, but based on the BTCC - is circuit closures. The smaller circuits that don't get a really big ticket event need the higher profile "domestic" series as their flagship events. The fact DTM was considering running behind closed doors, to at least honour sponsorship and TV agreements, and generate some revenue is evidence of this to me.
It's all very sad really. Teams come and go, manufacturers come and go, drivers rise and fall... but when circuits close, they are gone, and the land is given over to housing developments, or is snapped up to be locked away as a private manufacturer logistics location. They don't come back. And new ones are few and far between. Without government backing and an F1 contract, new circuits barely happen... and when those ones do, they are short lived, quickly become irrelevant and unsustainable, and are pretty **** for anything slower than F1 anyway. Granted, I'm tired, and am nearly at the end of my first bottle of wine for the evening, but I can only recall two new circuits in Europe that aren't connected to F1, and both of them happen to be in Romania (Motorpark Romania outside of Bucharest, and Transilvania-Ring in Transylvania (obvs)..)... there might be more.. but... errr... wine.
As a fan of games like Gran Turismo since day 1, and as someone that spends a lot of spare time racing on the PS4 - e-sports and e-racing are ****ing garbage. The manufacturers are lapping it up at the moment because online social media interaction is likely running the same as usual, or higher, and it's coming without actually having to field any cars.. just a few sim rigs. As I think I said earlier, motorsport is in for a tough time at the moment, it already was before C19, it's even worse now... and e-sports is sneaking along to stab it in the back using a shiv made from on old PS4 controller.
M.N.D
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There were rumors and speculations about DTM going the hybrid route as a start, but now, their main concern is if they'll survive.
I agree with what @Matski mentioned. The electric platform isn't that simple, and Formula E is a global series that's obviously better financially supported and has the budget to spend on developing pure EV racers better than what DTM can provide.
From a personal perspective, I still cannot get myself to like Formula E. Their circuits simply SUCK. I don't know about E-TCR, so let's wait and see (not that I'm having high hopes).
I remember we talked about Audi's possible withdraw previously on this thread after Mercedes pulled out. I was skeptical at the time as Audi was very strong in the series, and along Formula E, DTM is the only platform that involves Audi's motorsport division directly.
Regardless of Audi's decision, I think this is such a blow to DTM and (maybe to a lesser extent) Super GT, but more so to Berger who's already struggling to make the class one unification more viable. Such a shame to see it struggling so much, because at last the racing has improved when they decided to reduce the downforce.
I'm not a marketing expert by any means, but from what I read here and there, part of going racing is to promote the product. I know that the German market isn't the strongest one for the Japanese companies, so, will any of them really want to go there? I'm just speculating without much background info to backup what I'm saying.
I just don't like one-make series, especially if it's not a single seater. I've tried watching Ferrari challenge series or Lamborghini Super Trofeo, and didn't stick to either even though I'm a big Ferrari fan. I don't recognize the drivers, and there's no rival brands to give me the competition feeling. I know it could be huge fun, but sometimes it doesn't work. And for BMW, they will just say it's not worth it.
Not only I cannot find your No Business Case GIF, but even Kruger is out now
ADAC GT Masters already exist with their GT3 machines, so they only need to add a GT4 division if they don't have one already. DTM is supposed to be Germany's top motorsport platform, so I don't think they'll convert it into a feeder series.
That is sad
I can understand how circuit closing hurt the series. Sometimes the best circuits are the ones that aren't well supported.Only hardcore racing fans understand that high speed and downforce are not the main factors in making a good racing series. F1 is unintentionally (
) screwing smaller series, and that sucks.I want to rant about F1 just for the sake of ranting, but I don't have the energy
LOL
Couldn't agree more. I like sim racing WHEN I PLAY IT, even though it's been years since I did.
Sadly, Manufacturers like the idea because it'll save them tons of cash, and people like it because it's a trend and can be linked to the social media, all at the cost of watching a real race. Part of the excitement in real life scenarios is the unpredictability of the situation.
I enjoy watching real cars racing (Not F1. There, I ranted a bit).
Flight simulators (basic training ones, at least, not even X-Plane or Microsoft) are great tools and they do help a lot, but from my experience, they'll never replace being in a real one, regardless of the intention of flying (fun, training)...
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If they do stick with Class One, the Japanese will now call the shots, DTM has no bargaining power.
I agree, the series was very close to achieving a new era of entertaining racing. It's not the BMW fan in me saying this, but Merc delaying the Class One engines, and now Audi pulling out... it does frustrate me. Berger had a mammoth task infront of him, and frankly Stuttgart and Ingolstadt have done little to help.
I had an idea for a new one... but we'll see what Zipse does first...
99 times out of 100 I'd agree. But the Trophy series is already in place... and we know GT4 is capable of some good racing. I can't help but wonder what a GT4 PLUS kind of category might look like. Keep GT4 levels of downforce, bump up the power, and mandate a slightly less grippy tyre (infact, as I type this, SRO GT2 formula, but not for GT cars?)
Indeed, the virtual world brings it closer, but it's no replacement for the real thing.
KiwiRob
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How difficult would it be to produce a Class 1 chassis replacement with electric power? It's a one make chassis, the teams supply there own battery and motor, instead of there own engine like they do today.
I have tried watching formula E you're right it's crap, but I believe that's mainly due to the circuits they use, if they raced on proper circuit and not street circuits the racing would be better. Like Monaco is by far the worst F1 race in the season, in general street circuits don't make for good racing. The cars all looking identical doesn't help either.
I have tried watching formula E you're right it's crap, but I believe that's mainly due to the circuits they use, if they raced on proper circuit and not street circuits the racing would be better. Like Monaco is by far the worst F1 race in the season, in general street circuits don't make for good racing. The cars all looking identical doesn't help either.
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From a technical point of view, probably not that difficult. Though probably a length process and expensive. Even with Audi, BMW, DS, Jaguar, Mercedes, Nissan and Porsche spending money on Formula E... they're still cost controlling car development, and the tender process for the next gen car is 2-3 years.
But... if DTM move away from Class One it means they have a series specific chassis again, and as of now, only 1 customer for it. Let's say BMW did pony up the dosh, and Dallara built a suitable tub, and BMW adapted the Formula E drive train, and paid for whatever costs that incurred (I suspect including some contractual stuff too)... and they managed to do it in a miraculously short time, then you have one entrant.
You also have a car that is either incapable of doing the same race distances or is much much slower... and is at least, a combination of both. And, that would be based on using regen friendly circuits like Formula E does... put them on the tracks paying fans want to visit, and they'd be even worse... Electric TCR races are going to be 8-10km long! That's only 2-3 laps of most circuits! And although I'm sure it's not true across the board, I've spoken to plenty of tracksiders that shun the idea of electric motorsport... which I kinda get, the sounds (and the smells) are a big part of the experience...
... so, you have an expensive new platform, one entrant running 8 cars (max), dramatically shorter and slower races, or even races on street circuits like the London ExCeL one, and a portion of your existing fan-base alienated and not interested.
The principle of BEV racing has a lot of potential, if they don't give the cars too much rubber, and keep them fairly low down force (low drag = greater range) all that instant torque could make for some really fun racing. But until they can build a car that can go as fast, and as long, as an ICE powered one, it's just not suitable for most circuit racing series.
edit: just did some quick numbers... average Formula E speed 77mph vs DTM's 126mph. DTM races would typically be about 100 miles-ish, in total. Formula E would be roughly half that. I might do a full comparison later, but that points to Formula E... the pinnacle of Electric racing, with massive manufacturer involvement, at 56% of the speed and 50% of the distance... so I'll reiterate, I don't think BEV's are there yet.
I agree. I'm trying to stick with it, because as I indicated in the paragraph above, you do get to see the drivers wrestling the cars a lot more, and the action can be frenetic... but the circuits they're using are terrible in almost every way... especially the London ExCeL arena one!
From a looks point of view, I believe the Gen 3 car due in 2022 will still be a common chassis, so no luck there (Although I do quite like the look of the Gen 2 car).
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Klaus Froehlich be all like smacking dem Audi bishes upside the head, with his savage words...
from TcT:
BMW has found itself alone as the sole manufacturer in the DTM after Audi announced that it will exit the series following the 2020 season.
However, the Bavarian manufacturer is not ruling a continued involvement despite the circumstances and lack of manufacturer competition and has criticised the way Audi announced its departure.
“I believe that the series is still very attractive and has a future perspective,” BMW development board member Klaus Fröhlich told the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
“In the short term, the previous DTM approach has a problem, and we may have to think outside the box. There will certainly be a pause for thought and perhaps an interruption. But the DTM has already stopped in its history and has come back.”
Audi’s announcement to leave the series it has officially been part of since 2004 came as a surprise to both the DTM and to BMW.
“That surprised and disappointed me. And I find it not only astonishing, but also unsportsmanlike to drop out and not talk to us as a second partner before. It really blew me away,” said Fröhlich.
“When Mercedes got out, Ola Kallenius (CEO at the time) called me personally and explained how and why. It was all professional and appreciative. I missed that here at Audi.”
Fröhlich also criticised Audi’s statement of instead switching focus to Formula E, a series BMW is already committed to.
“I can’t understand the statement ‘We are going into Formula E for electric cars instead of staying in the DTM’ precisely because the DTM wants to become fully electric by 2025,” said Fröhlich.
“It is not for me to evaluate another company. But from my point of view Audi is undergoing a far reaching restructuring process. Whether it was sustainable to cut off the DTM pillar and whether Formula E is more viable in the long term to communicate electric mobility, I put a question mark on that.”
... seriously though, it's somewhat reassuring to hear a board member support participation in DTM.
from TcT:
BMW has found itself alone as the sole manufacturer in the DTM after Audi announced that it will exit the series following the 2020 season.
However, the Bavarian manufacturer is not ruling a continued involvement despite the circumstances and lack of manufacturer competition and has criticised the way Audi announced its departure.
“I believe that the series is still very attractive and has a future perspective,” BMW development board member Klaus Fröhlich told the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
“In the short term, the previous DTM approach has a problem, and we may have to think outside the box. There will certainly be a pause for thought and perhaps an interruption. But the DTM has already stopped in its history and has come back.”
Audi’s announcement to leave the series it has officially been part of since 2004 came as a surprise to both the DTM and to BMW.
“That surprised and disappointed me. And I find it not only astonishing, but also unsportsmanlike to drop out and not talk to us as a second partner before. It really blew me away,” said Fröhlich.
“When Mercedes got out, Ola Kallenius (CEO at the time) called me personally and explained how and why. It was all professional and appreciative. I missed that here at Audi.”
Fröhlich also criticised Audi’s statement of instead switching focus to Formula E, a series BMW is already committed to.
“I can’t understand the statement ‘We are going into Formula E for electric cars instead of staying in the DTM’ precisely because the DTM wants to become fully electric by 2025,” said Fröhlich.
“It is not for me to evaluate another company. But from my point of view Audi is undergoing a far reaching restructuring process. Whether it was sustainable to cut off the DTM pillar and whether Formula E is more viable in the long term to communicate electric mobility, I put a question mark on that.”
... seriously though, it's somewhat reassuring to hear a board member support participation in DTM.
CrunchSlaughtered
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He is an ex-board member. I doubt his word counts anymore.
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He's got a couple of months before The Corporate Highlander takes over... though perhaps that's why he doesn't mind smack-talkin' Audi at this stage...
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