DTM DTM and Touring Racing Discussion Thread

Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters news, races, teams, drivers, and motorsport discussion.
It's been a while since I posted anything related to motorsports, but about 3~4 days ago, DTM has announced the revised 2020 calendar:

EZlRS1cWkAAwx5t?format=png.webp


Sadly, I don't feel as excited as I'm supposed to be as a motorsport fan. Maybe it's because of the long lockdown, or maybe because of the jeopardized situation of the series after Audi's announcement of withdrawing next year.

Also, since we're already at it, I think it's good to post the revised BTCC calendar for 2020:

2020 Kwik Fit British Touring Car Championship – Provisional Calendar

Dates | Rounds | Venue (Circuit)

01-02/08 | 1, 2, 3 | Donington Park (National)

08-09/08 | 4, 5, 6 | Brands Hatch (Indy)

22-23/08 | 7, 8, 9 | Oulton Park (Island)

29-30/08 | 10, 11, 12 | Knockhill

19-20/09 | 13, 14, 15 | Thruxton

26-27/09 | 16, 17, 18 | Silverstone (National)

10-11/10 | 19, 20, 21 | Croft

24-25/10 | 22, 23, 24 | Snetterton (300)

14-15/11 | 25, 26, 27 | Brands Hatch (GP)
 
DTM is behind closed doors, and I'm not sure about BTCC yet. :(

Also,

The first BTCC round at Brands has been changed the the GP circuit.

Nuremberg has said Nein to the Norisring round, so DTM starts at Spa.

Sadly, I don't feel as excited as I'm supposed to be as a motorsport fan

2020 is a write off, it really is. The bitter taste of eSports poisoning my news feeds doesn't help. I've actually been catching up on some NASCAR though, I do like NASCAR.

Contemplating trying to better my 2015 race attendance next year to make up for this year being so ******* ****.
 
Wow, too many changes within few days...

The first BTCC round at Brands has been changed the the GP circuit.
Maintenance for the indy circuit or something else? unlike GT3 and DTM, NGTC work excellently on Brands Hatch, but I like small circuits as you feel things are tight and very close where everything is rushed in a good way.

Nuremberg has said Nein to the Norisring round, so DTM starts at Spa.
Norisring 2017 was crazy in all ways. Aside from the horrific crash of Paffet-Rockenfeller, it was among the best races of DTM that year, and sometimes a good track to BMW. Such a shame it's dropped.

I'm not sure about BTCC yet.
Sadly, I'm not as cheerful lately and I don't follow racing news that much these days, so maybe I'm missing something, but is it what you talked about previously, regarding the circuit closure, or is there something else that I'm not aware of?

2020 is a write off, it really is. The bitter taste of eSports poisoning my news feeds doesn't help.
I tried to watch some E-sports, again. It didn't work.

I've actually been catching up on some NASCAR though, I do like NASCAR.
It's good to know that you're following, mate (y) If you have time, please post whatever you may find interesting regarding the series. It'll be interesting, and maybe will be helpful for some (me included) to learn more about the series and to be more involved. Thanks :)

Contemplating trying to better my 2015 race attendance next year to make up for this year being so ******* ****.
I had some plans thatt I intended to accomplish this year, but I have to postpone them as well :unsure:

Also, I'd like some new fantastic wallpapers, man :D(y)
 
Maintenance for the indy circuit or something else?

Because the race is later in the year, the daylight hours are shorter. I think it's easier for them to get it done before dark on the Indy circuit.

Sadly, I'm not as cheerful lately and I don't follow racing news that much these days, so maybe I'm missing something, but is it what you talked about previously, regarding the circuit closure, or is there something else that I'm not aware of?

I just mean that it's not actually been announced what races are open to the public yet. 54 days to go before the season starts so there is time. If they can get the calendar done as you've posted, and they're fully open to the public, hopefully that should help minimise losses.

If you have time, please post whatever you may find interesting regarding the series. It'll be interesting, and maybe will be helpful for some (me included) to learn more about the series and to be more involved. Thanks

I like the sights and the sounds, the rivalries and the characters, I think the cars look pretty good these days and since I first watched it in '06, I've had a basic appreciation of the skill set involved. Sounds silly, but since by NASCAR Heat for the Playstation, it's actually given me a much bigger appreciation for the differences in the tracks also.

I had some plans thatt I intended to accomplish this year, but I have to postpone them as well

That sucks. Hopefully you can get them done next year.

Also, I'd like some new fantastic wallpapers, man

I spent a lot of money on a new lens late last year... then motorsport gets cancelled. :p:(:cry:
 
DTM options.. from Daily Sportscar

After earlier proposals featuring GTE spec cars were rejected, and with little enthusiasm for a switch to TCR spec cars either, the latest options are laid out by German publication Motorsport Total

The favoured option, as previously referred to on DSC, appears to surround GT3 cars but an additional proposal has also been tabled suggesting that LMDh prototypes could be considered from 2022.

The GT3 proposal would see all-Pro grids with single drivers per car and a retention of the Sprint race format currently seen in DTM. The cars would be performance balanced at a higher level than at present in order to match the lap times with DTM having their own Balance of Performance formula.


DTM boss Gerhard Berger suggest that the costs would be met by the manufacturers/partners and sees the potential DTM offer as being different to ADAC GT Masters where Pro-Am pairings are welcomed, the ‘Hobby’ drivers as described by Berger bringing a different dynamic and funding package to the Series.

The initial LMDh proposal was brought to the table by Hans Stuck earlier this year in light of the high level of manufacture interest in the new global prototype formula.



It’s a formula that has also had public support from Gerhard Berger himself for its cost reduction via the use of common components – in particular for LMDh the proposed ‘spec’ hybrid system and four licensed chassis suppliers.

Again the proposal would be for the cars to be used in single driver sprint races, not unlike the Group C, and earlier Gp 2, 4 and 5-based DRM series in the 1970s and 1980s

The LMDh cars though will not be available until 2022 at the very earliest. Such a move would likely bring substantial potential savings when measured against current Class One budgets, and for that matter, if customer cars were involved, would increase the sustainability of manufacturer LMDh plans.

So that leaves the DTM with the option of trying to struggle through 2021 (and probably 2022 too) with either the Class One format on life support or some form of GT3 bridging plan.
 
I think it's dead in the water, going GT3 is pointless, there are many GT3 series around the world, is an interim series I think TCR would be best, it's exciting racing and there are multiple chassis manufacturers.
 
going GT3 is pointless, there are many GT3 series around the world, is an interim series I think TCR would be best, it's exciting racing and there are multiple chassis manufacturers.

There are multiple GT3 chassis manufacturers and there are many TCR series around the world. I don't see TCR being a better option than GT3 at this point, based on that reasoning anyway.
 
DTM is for touring cars not GT3, at least TCR is a touring car. But I think the series is dead, I can't see how they can revive it.
 
DTM is for touring cars not GT3, at least TCR is a touring car. But I think the series is dead, I can't see how they can revive it.

With VW pulling the plug in its TCR cars, and no TCR cars from BMW or Mercedes, it certainly wouldn't look much the DTM, and with other nations having domestic TCR series already, I'm not sure how much interest there'd be in a European calender. Certainly wouldn't be worth coming to the UK anymore, we already have BTCC and TCR UK, and nobody bothers to go and watch the latter already.

My suggestion is promote the DTM Trophy entries to the main series, run alongside Class One entries from BMW for a couple of years, and if no-one comes back - or no Japanese teams enter, knock Class One on the head. The multiclass system would be akin to what happens in SuperGT (Class One, GT3 and JAF-GT), and not the first time DTM would have been multi-class either.

DTM Trophy allows for quite a wide range of cars to be used, it's predominantly GT4 entries, but it's actually for FIA Group E Cat II SH and SC cars, which includes all kinds of silhouette racers which offer a fairly cheap entry point. You'd still have BMW in class one, and with a reduced budget they could then easily add a few more quick and easy DTM titles to their roll of honour without really breaking a sweat - it'd make up for the one that Cecotto lost in 1990 when some nobody in Mercedes wiped him out.

This at least offers a fairly unique USP and a sensible entry point cost wise, with no manufacturer needing to develop a new platform.
 
I was planning to join the conversation here, but as usual, it has to be late :facepalm:

I just mean that it's not actually been announced what races are open to the public yet. 54 days to go before the season starts so there is time. If they can get the calendar done as you've posted, and they're fully open to the public, hopefully that should help minimise losses.
Now that the real motorsport is trying to get its gears back, hopefully there is no changes on the BTCC calendar, so far, and according to touring car times, fans will be allowed to access the circuits in about less than 2 weeks from now!

www.touringcartimes.com/2020/06/30/motorsport-vision-set-allow-fan-access-11-july/

I spent a lot of money on a new lens late last year... then motorsport gets cancelled. :p:(:cry:
This is so frustrating, mate :( hopefully if it's safe to visit some of the circuits if you can, maybe you can put some of the equipment to good use so you won't feel a complete loss (y) looking forward to these pix :sneaky: I'm thinking of a new avatar, and the new livery of the 330i is nice ;):D

While we're talking BTCC for now, I'd like to share a couple of things.

First is an article published by Autocar about a report on WSR. The article is nice to read and with many interesting details to those like me who're still learning about the series:

www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/west-surrey-racing-team-behind-bmws-btcc-success

10-bmw-with-trophies.webp

9-colin-turkington.webp

7-colin-turkington.webp

5-bmw-3-series.webp


It's interesting to know that they started as a F3 team, and F3 is my favourite single seater platform. Also, never expected that Senna and Hakinnen are among their alumni!

Another interesting topic is how the series balance the field with controlling the boost, which is I believe is the norm for every sportscar series out there that adopts a BoP system, but I give extra credit for BTCC as it has both FWD and RWD platforms.

It's interesting that even though they've been in collaboration with BMW Motorsport since 2006, it wasn't until 2017 when BMW UK agreed to provide sponsorship and support.

Man, last year's season was crazy, even though it was technically my first season to follow, but it's simply among the best I've seen.

However, a sad bit of news is that Andrew Jordan decided to withdraw from the 2020 season:

www.touringcartimes.com/2020/06/30/andrew-jordan-withdraws-2020-season/

This is somehow a hard blow to WSR and to the series :( I don't know if he's withdrawing for this season only or for good. Either way it's sad to see him out, even though I'm a fan of Turkington. It's unkown yet who's going to take his seat, but WSR need a good driver, as I don't think that Tom Oliphant is going to be enough to help the team compete for the teams title.

I'll reply about DTM later on so I won't make my post too long :)
 
I've never particularly liked AJ, I think he's a bit of a dick, but, he's clearly a talented driver and it will be a blow to the teams chances loosing him. Oliphant is a waste of a seat, BMW UK need to step up with enough money that WSR don't have to rely on such drivers, but you're right, WSR do have an interesting history.

I'm booking tickets for Donington as soon as I know what the deal is with Camping at the circuit is (it's changed since I was last there). Not sure if I'll be able to do Brands Hatch the following week, but I'd already made arrangements to get up to Scotland at the end of August for the Knockhill round, provided the people I'm going with are still going, I should be there too.
 
@M.N.D

I don't have too many thoughts on NASCAR at this point. It's a few years since I watched it before, and the race format, the cars, and a number of the drivers have changed. The season so far has been beset by weather issues, with lots of delays and postponements, which makes it tough (race broadcast time here is Sunday night... it can easily be 2-3am when the races finish, which has always been a problem for me). I also don't really have a driver/team to support yet. Before I'd always been a Montoya fan, but obviously he's not there anymore so... I thought about following 7 time champ Jimmie Johnson, but he's retiring from NASCAR at the end of the season - and is having a tough final year!

The races are now divided up into three segments, if you do ever get round to dipping your toe into NASCAR, you can probably just watch the 3rd segment to begin with... often the most excitement is with 20 laps to go or so. As you begin to understand it a little more, you might find it more interesting to see how the whole race unfolds... there's also the chance that you'd find it dull. I find it pretty track dependent personally.

It's also kinda funny that between two of the commentators, there's a personal net worth of around $600 million dollars (DEJ and Jeff Gordon)... just makes me smile.
 
@M.N.D

I've been completely into NASCAR since the start of the '08 seasons, so it's been a while now. It is very different to all the other forms of motorsports. To a casual observer going around in circles seems stupid and pretty easy to do, but as with anything, the easier something is to do, the harder it is to differentiate yourself from the next person, so you then start focusing on very small details that make very small differences. As @Matski alluded to, while many of the tracks look very similar in terms of layout/dimensions/size/shape, they all are quite different in terms of how flat (or banked) the corners are, the turning radius, and also how smooth or rough the racing surface is. Again, these aren't huge differences, but when you're focusing or small details, a small change makes a big difference.

I will say, NASCAR does put a greater focus on the entertainment value of motorsports, rather than purely focusing on 'the fastest car wins' like F1 or DTM. While many endurance series use some sort of BoP to level the playing field, NASCAR just has the teams operate in a very tight box of rules, so again, very small differences can make all the difference after going around in circle for 3.5 hours.

If you'd like to learn more, just list a bunch of questions you have about NASCAR, and how it differs to other racing series, and I'd be glad to give my thoughts. (y)
 
^ Further to this, the last few laps at Kentucky could the starting point for a few questions... pay particular attention to the 21 car taking the restart in 6th position... then watch it again and watch the 21 car that starts behind him (and gives him a push at the green).

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A push, four wide, cars on the traction compound, contact, tyre rub, and a win for a rookie that's 6th with two to go.

It sounds cheesy, but when people say it's a chess game at 200mph, they're not wrong (figuratively at least!), you have to look at how and why people are where they are on the track, how they got there, and how they might get further up the pack, and you can do that throughout the pack... it looks processional, it looks simple, but it really isn't.

they all are quite different in terms of how flat (or banked) the corners are, the turning radius, and also how smooth or rough the racing surface is. Again, these aren't huge differences, but when you're focusing or small details, a small change makes a big difference.

Firstly, I hate Pocono.

Secondly.. .absolutely what you just said, when I followed it before I knew all the stats for the tracks.. layout, front stretch and back stretch length and angle, bank angles etc. etc. but honestly, it wasn't until I played NASCAR Heat 4 on the Playstation with my wheel that differences became truly apparent, honestly it all clicked into place like it never had done before.

Thirdly, I hate Pocono... and Martinsville too... but mostly Pocono. Each of the tricky triangle's corners are different, but they're pretty wide, so you think they're fast, but the banking is shallow, so the wait to get on the power is tortuous... Martinsville, the Paperclip, is similarly flat, but with much tighter corners, so I just find it understeer city.

@Beemer B773ER I feel really bad for Johnson, I'd love to see him go out on a high... as it is.. a winless season just sucks.
 
That Kansas finish was wild (as far as non-restrictor plate tracks go). Not a guy I wanted to win it, but exciting nonetheless.

Hahaha, Pocono isn't called the Tricky Triangle for nothing. I'm still playing NASCAR HEAT 2, and playing Championship Mode at the highest difficulty I think I've now figured how to get around that place. Yes, a LOT of off-throttle time rolling through the corner just waiting till you get that point where you know you should get on the gas...or you try to peddle the gas a bit early to keep the revs up until you feel the rears finally grip (I've found the former driving style works better for these 'momentum' tracks). Granted, I still only use a controller (Xbox), not a steering wheel setup, so that's why things might be less complicated for me.

Martinsville is downright difficult. On the Xbox controller, the brake and the steering are controlled by buttons on the same hand, so its very difficult to focus on your braking while also steering that tight radius corners. Similar issue with road courses, but I've got the groove at Watkins Glen now. On the flip side, I absolutely love the Intermediate tracks where you run very hard. Places like Texas, Atlanta, Michigan, Fontana, and even the likes of Vegas and Kentucky. Dover is also on my list of favorites because of how on edge you are every corner, every lap.
 
@Beemer B773ER

The controller thing is an interesting one. I wouldn't, infact probably couldn't play the game on a controller (I tend to Zig-Zag around corners on the PS4 controller), and the wheel gives clues to the grip limits that the controller just can't. The downsides though are noticeable too, transition off corner banking can often push significant feedback through the wheel.. you have to be really on your toes to not get a tank-slapper, and road courses are undriveable. The wheel receives a kick through the force feedback with every camber change... on an oval, you really appreciate the feedback.. on a road course it means even leaving the pits to get to the track can be like an arm-wrestle with Pop-eye whilst he's having a steroid induced muscle spasm fit.

My current set-up anyway... still moving house, so a little temporary.

upload_2020-7-22_22-3-31.webp
 
Nice! Yeah, I'd like to eventually get a wheel. I feel I'd have a much greater 'feel' for controlling the car, especially making finer movements for steering, and also a more linear application of the gas rather than on-off with the controller where I have to keep taking small taps on the gas until I'm ready to mash it to the floor on corner exit.

Just out curiosity, for NASCAR and also other racing games, what camera view do you like to use? I'm definitely not a pro because I like the chase view. I should challenge myself and go with the cockpit view. Also, previously I used to just sit on the couch and play (about 4 meters away from the TV), but recently I've put a chair just about a meter away and it's helped. You feel more connected to the car, and of course can see the corner apex/apron with more detail.
 
Just out curiosity, for NASCAR and also other racing games, what camera view do you like to use?

Bumpercam. Been playing that way in driving games since about 1999, hate cockpit view unless I'm literally sat with my nose against the screen, snf I'm hopeless with chase cam. I'm hoping PS5 gives more options for VR.

Anyway folks..

DTM and BTCC both get going this weekend. DTM from Spa-Francorchamps, which may well be available to watch for free on DTM's 'grid' platform (grid.dtm.de).

grid.dtm.com/en-int/playerpage/176534

BTCC will be on ITV4 if you can get that in your region. I was hoping to be at Donington for the BTCC, but they've opted to not allow spectators at the last minute.
 
At last, finally, I'll join the conversation here :facepalm::D

First of all @Matski @Beemer B773ER

Thanks a lot for sharing thoughs and information about NASCAR and keeping this place alive. Not many Non-F1 racing fans around here (y)

I don't have too many thoughts on NASCAR at this point. It's a few years since I watched it before, and the race format, the cars, and a number of the drivers have changed. The season so far has been beset by weather issues, with lots of delays and postponements, which makes it tough (race broadcast time here is Sunday night... it can easily be 2-3am when the races finish, which has always been a problem for me). I also don't really have a driver/team to support yet. Before I'd always been a Montoya fan, but obviously he's not there anymore so... I thought about following 7 time champ Jimmie Johnson, but he's retiring from NASCAR at the end of the season - and is having a tough final year!
Nice! I understand how frustrating it is to have a different time zone affecting your race following. Before moving to the States, that was among the main reasons that prevented me from following, in addition mainly to my big lack of knowledge about the series and the unavailability of a platform to watch the races. Also, driver shuffling is very common on series with large number of cars so it's kinda hard to know to follow, so you usually try to look for the big names.

The races are now divided up into three segments, if you do ever get round to dipping your toe into NASCAR, you can probably just watch the 3rd segment to begin with... often the most excitement is with 20 laps to go or so. As you begin to understand it a little more, you might find it more interesting to see how the whole race unfolds... there's also the chance that you'd find it dull. I find it pretty track dependent personally.
Good to know (y) I'll try to keep an eye on that.

I've been completely into NASCAR since the start of the '08 seasons, so it's been a while now. It is very different to all the other forms of motorsports. To a casual observer going around in circles seems stupid and pretty easy to do, but as with anything, the easier something is to do, the harder it is to differentiate yourself from the next person, so you then start focusing on very small details that make very small differences. As @Matski alluded to, while many of the tracks look very similar in terms of layout/dimensions/size/shape, they all are quite different in terms of how flat (or banked) the corners are, the turning radius, and also how smooth or rough the racing surface is. Again, these aren't huge differences, but when you're focusing or small details, a small change makes a big difference.
Great details and observations, man (y)

A quick story: when I was a teen back in the late 90's and early 2000's I used to play car games (GT, Formula 1 of 1999, NFS, etc...). I was a bad gamer, so when I play something like NFS or other similar games that I can't remember, I preferred to play the oval circuits as I pick a powerful car and drive past the rest and win the race. That's how bad arcade games make you think of oval racing.

My discovery of NASCAR was through a magazine called Sport Auto, which I think is the oldest car magazine in the Middle East. It used to cover different motorsport series, and although I didn't understand much of the technical content I was reading, I was fascinated by the colorful livery of the cars (M & M's, Tide, DuPont, etc...) At that time I remember it was being called Winston series, and Jeff Gordon was the star, but then all of a sudden he stopped winning, and then other stars rose to the top, but that's about it.

I will say, NASCAR does put a greater focus on the entertainment value of motorsports, rather than purely focusing on 'the fastest car wins' like F1 or DTM. While many endurance series use some sort of BoP to level the playing field, NASCAR just has the teams operate in a very tight box of rules, so again, very small differences can make all the difference after going around in circle for 3.5 hours.
Good to know (y) As a racing fan, I grew to appreciate the different racing series, and I don't like the mocking of the series as a left turners that crash into each other, and that people come to watch the accidents. I also remember a long time ago, I got an issue of Auto Week that had the calendar of the series (maybe 2004), and noticed the unique shapes of the ovals.

Although I believe Top Gear had some role in that, Hammond's NASCAR bit was entertaining and fair.

I like the competitiveness of the series and the non stop action. To be fair, I remember seeing a highlights report on TV about some race, and was amazed by the amount of overtaking that possibly outnumbered the overtaking of a whole F1 season. I've said it before, but highly advanced cars, while sound awesome on paper and from a technical point of view, are inversely proportional to the "on-track" action during the race.

I'm a big fan of GT3, but I have to admit that some of the races make me sleep, LITERALLY! DTM had some really bad races until they decided to reduce the downforce levels and simplify the cars, which improved racing considerably, but with current $#!+ situation of the series, I don't know what will happen, which is sad.

Don't get me started about F1 :D

If you'd like to learn more, just list a bunch of questions you have about NASCAR, and how it differs to other racing series, and I'd be glad to give my thoughts. (y)
Awesome, man :) I'll try to do that soon. Looking forward to learn more about it and share something here!

End of part 1 :ROFLMAO:
 
DTM and BTCC both get going this weekend. DTM from Spa-Francorchamps, which may well be available to watch for free on DTM's 'grid' platform (grid.dtm.de).
Race 1 is over for DTM, but their Youtube channel hasn't upload the full race replay, or maybe it's completely blocked in the States, which is bull$#!+ (n)

BTCC will be on ITV4 if you can get that in your region. I was hoping to be at Donington for the BTCC, but they've opted to not allow spectators at the last minute.
This is what I'm actually waiting for :sneaky:

As for the coverage, ITV is geo blocked as usual, so I'm looking for other options at the moment.

I've missed it, but the qualifying results are in. I've put them in spoilers in case anyone is following the series and didn't watch the event.

Races 1,2 and 3 will be held tomorrow.

P/ No/ Independent/ Driver/ Car/ Best/
1.
1 M Colin Turkington BMW 330i M Sport 1:08.998
2. 27 M Dan Cammish Honda Civic Type R 1:09.085
3. 116 I Ashley Sutton Infiniti Q50 1:09.095
4. 80 M Tom Ingram Toyota Corolla 1:09.210
5. 15 M Tom Oliphant BMW 330i M Sport 1:09.309
6. 6 I Rory Butcher Ford Focus ST Mk 4 1:09.329
7. 24 I Jake Hill Honda Civic Type R 1:09.387
8. 66 I Josh Cook Honda Civic Type R 1:09.411
9. 25 M Matt Neal Honda Civic Type R 1:09.563
10. 33 I Adam Morgan Mercedes A-Class 1:09.567
11. 18 I Senna Proctor Hyundai i30N 1:09.588
12. 4 I Sam Osborne Honda Civic Type R 1:09.631
13. 48 I Ollie Jackson Ford Focus RS 1:09.723
14. 22 I Chris Smiley Hyundai i30N 1:09.724
15. 12 I Stephen Jelley BMW 125i M Sport 1:09.818
16. 3 I Tom Chilton Honda Civic Type R 1:09.819
17. 19 I Bobby Thompson Audi S3 Saloon 1:10.118
18. 777 I Michael Crees Honda Civic Type R 1:10.200
19. 180 I James Gornall Audi S3 Saloon 1:10.218
20. 16 I Aiden Moffat Infiniti Q50 1:10.432
21. 44 I Andy Neate Ford Focus ST Mk 4 1:10.692
22. 41 I Carl Boardley BMW 125i M Sport 1:10.758
23. 34 I Ollie Brown Volkswagen CC 1:11.049
24. 32 I Jack Butel Mercedes A-Class 1:11.508
25. 31 I Jack Goff Volkswagen CC 1:11.538
26. 28 I Nic Hamilton Volkswagen CC NO TIME

By the way @Matski

I've noticed that the Manufacturer BMW entry is no longer labeled as WSR, but rather Team BMW. Is just a re-branding or what?
 

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