Daimler & BMW Partnership Talk Thread


Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

^Yes .....but it wasn't so long ago when analysts were talking about breaking up Daimler and selling it in bits.
from 2005 said:
........But German bankers and private-equity guys are already doing the math. Bernstein's Cheetham estimates Daimler's commercial-truck business, which earned a huge $1.5 billion in the first six months of 2005, is worth $11 billion to $28.7 billion. Mercedes itself could bring $36 billion, assuming the operating margin of 6.5% it has averaged over the last nine years. The price Chrysler could fetch would depend on its performance at the time of sale. Cheetham figures it could bring around $6 billion based on a "normal operating margin" of 3%. "We expect the calls for a breakup to become even louder," he says.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

If something more drastic to happen it'll be the opposite,Daimler is twice as big.

And currently, MB seems to earn quite a lot more money than BMW. So I wouldn't fear a takeover by BMW. Even if you look at Porsche, it's quite particular and unlikely to happen with Daimler and BMW.

BTW for me the danger is not in BMW, but in private-equity funds, possibly driven by Russia, Middle- or Far-East countries and so. Private equity funds such as Cerberus already prooved they had the guts and means to buy a carmaker.

There were also rumours that Toyota would be interested in Daimler... Daimler has no other protection than a high share price, so they are quite vulnerable, but it does not mean that they will be bought, the action has to make sense. It's not really about proud or anything, such an enormous takeover has to bring advantages to the table.

For BMW to buy Daimler would be completely ridiculous. For Daimler to buy BMW would be completely ridiculous.

For a Chinese private-equity fund to buy Daimler would open them the world of automotive finest engineering, but be sure that neither the Germans nor the EU would let them do easily. Then, and only then, could we imagine a takeover from Daimler by BMW, to "protect" Daimler.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

If something more drastic to happen it'll be the opposite,Daimler is twice as big.
How much cashflow do they have ?
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

^Yes .....but it wasn't so long ago when analysts were talking about breaking up Daimler and selling it in bits.

True but that when there was Chrysler,now MB is much better thank heaven,they were better almost instantly after ditching it:D

How much cashflow do they have ?

Can't remember but one of our fellow members post it somewhere in another thread and Daimler made more,also don't forget the commercial vehicle MB makes trucks,buses ect...a whole big sector.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

I dont care who buys who. I just want to see two of the worlds greatest car makers in the world colaborating together to make the best cars in the world.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

And currently, MB seems to earn quite a lot more money than BMW. So I wouldn't fear a takeover by BMW. Even if you look at Porsche, it's quite particular and unlikely to happen with Daimler and BMW.

BTW for me the danger is not in BMW, but in private-equity funds, possibly driven by Russia, Middle- or Far-East countries and so. Private equity funds such as Cerberus already prooved they had the guts and means to buy a carmaker.

There were also rumours that Toyota would be interested in Daimler... Daimler has no other protection than a high share price, so they are quite vulnerable, but it does not mean that they will be bought, the action has to make sense. It's not really about proud or anything, such an enormous takeover has to bring advantages to the table.

For BMW to buy Daimler would be completely ridiculous. For Daimler to buy BMW would be completely ridiculous.

For a Chinese private-equity fund to buy Daimler would open them the world of automotive finest engineering, but be sure that neither the Germans nor the EU would let them do easily. Then, and only then, could we imagine a takeover from Daimler by BMW, to "protect" Daimler.


Mercedes is much further down the road than BMW in terms of cost cutting measures and parts commonality/sharing than BMW. The difference in the profit margin between the two marques can be attributed to these two factors. BMW is playing catch up to Mercedes and this task is made even tougher because the global economy is slowing.

As for the threat posed by Private Equity funds. Highly unlikely at this moment and for the forseeable future simply because P/E firms cannot arrange the jumbo financing packages to do a >US$10 billion deal. Let alone Daimler or BMW. The days of easy credit are gone.

Even the top-tier Private Equity funds such as Blackstone, KKR, and Carlyle are having their hands full managing their existing portfolio companies. I have excluded other prominent P/E funds such as Permira, CVC, Clayton Dubilier & Rice, Providence Equity Partners, Texas Pacific Group, Thomas Lee, Apollo, Silver Lake because they are focused on other industrial sectors or in the case of Silver Lake and Providence Equity Partners, they are focused or the technology, media, telecommunications businesses.

Most of the purchases they made during the private equity boom between 2006 to the middle of 2007 are proving troublesome and some have already filed for bankruptcy in Europe or chapter 11 restructuring in the US (eg Damovo, Linens 'n' Things). The frothy prices paid for these assets were based on easy credit, blue-sky valuations, and fierce competition among P/E firms. Without going into the technicalities of the private equity business, many P/E firms have had problems getting the financing in place to complete the purchases made in 2007. There were and still are cases pending where P/E firms are suing the banks pledged to provide finance but are backing out or sellers suing P/E firms for failure to complete the transaction. One relevant case is KKR's purchase of Harman Corporation. Harman (Harman & Kardon, Becker) is the company that manufactures the audio and satnav systems you see in most Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and Ferrari. KKR walked refused to complete the purchase because Harman had tripped a MAC (material adverse change) clause concerning Harman's R&D expenditure. They went to court briefly and settled out of court. KKR ended up buying US$350 million of preferred stock in Harman. Harman's shares have dropped more than 50% since.

Cerberus was the only P/E firm that owned a car company (Chrysler). The business is not working out and is bleeding cash daily. Steve Feinberg (Senior Partner of Cerberus) brought Bob Nardelli and Jim Press (the ex-president of Toyota) to steady the ship. It will be years before they see daylight with this deal (if at all). The car business is essentially a long-cycle business meaning that cycles revolve around the life cycle of models and mistakes cannot be undone easily. On top of that you have the economic cycle to deal with.......................................

Cerberus also bought General Motors' financing auto and mortgage business called GMAC. You don't need me to tell you this is blowing up in their face. But it did look like a great deal before the US housing market blew up.

The Sovereign Wealth Funds (SWF) won't buy a brand such as Daimler or BMW because they are not strategic and these SWF's have no experience in running a car company. The Kuwait investment corporation does have a big stake in Daimler and they have had it for decades. But they are silent shareholders.

Cross shareholding to protect one another among the German marques is possible but not at this time. VW approached Daimler four years ago to take a stake in VW to protect VW from unwanted takeover attempts. Then Porsche swooped in to buy VW and we all know what happened.

Toyota does not need Daimler, BMW, or anybody else. They are doing fine and Lexus is doing great in North America. Europe is still a work in progress for Lexus though.

The co-operation between BMW and Mercedes are purely driven by financial considerations and survival. The scope of the co-operation is quite limited at this stage. Also car companies do multilateral deals and not limited to one partner only. BMW has a deal with Fiat and an engine deal with Peugeot also (I think).
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

Thanks a lot for this very interesting and informative post! Karma given!

I've read that Daimler's value is currently down to €40 billions and that the main carmakers have lost one quarter of their value in the past 6 months because of the US crisis...

According to a study, the world's strongest carmaker is Toyota (€1.500 benefit for each car sold, compared to €900 for VW, €312 Renault, €250 Peugeot)... Toyota earned €95 billions in the last 7 years, more than VW, BMW and DaimlerChrysler/Daimler together...

The secong strongest carmaker is VW, and they are improving a lot faster than Toyota.
The third is Daimler.

They're mostly lagging in productivity: VW makes €330.000 with each employee, whereas Porsche makes €637.000!

The same study says that even if Daimler is the world's thirs strongest carmaker, the fact that their value is down to €40 billions can mean that a takeover could be possible...

However I think that, like Wunderkind said, such an expensive company is quite unlikely to be bought, especially in such a crisis period!

Found these infos, and the pic, on Automobilwoche.de

http://imageshack.us
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

Darn,Toyota is untouchable :eusa_doh::D
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

It's a good idea to share the V12 engine given the small production volume and lack of differentiation. They are still able to customise the engines to their individual needs.

Most of the BMW, Mercedes, and even Audi engines of the same capacity are within 2-4% of one another in terms of horsepower, torque, and fuel consumption. Don't be surprised if they collaborate on the V8 engines also. Mercedes will probably not use BMW's in-line six cylinder engines due to its length.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

I would surely hate to see them share V12s.

M
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

That would have been a blow to brand personality.

Things are not as dark as they seem. Mercedes and BMW can still customise their engines with their own cylinder head designs and with or without forced induction as they see fit.

The output and character of the engine can be tuned. That's not really a big problem.

We have to understand that the combined sales volume of the V12-engine models of both marques are below 10,000 annually. And that is including Maybach and Rolls Royce. There's no economic rationale for them to have two V12 engines that are of different designs that are hardly distinguishable in performance.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

Mercedes' old turbo V12 stomps a mutthole BMW's V12 so I wouldn't say that they aren't distinguishable in performance. The Mercedes V12 couldn't be more distinguished. BMW's V12 has never been the upgrade it should have been over their V8s, at least in the 7-Series.

M
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

^ Certainly u have some valid points but sharing on V12s level isn't a bit far?
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

MB have already considering selling their V12 engines to Aston Martin, and so did BMW ... supplying their V8 & V12 engines to some low-volume brands.

V12 engine is a fossil in these times ... The sales of V12-engined cars are dropping sharply yet MB & BMW are keeping them in portfolio due prestigious reasons only. Otherwise V12 engine production is not profitable at all. As said: both companies sell less then 10,000 V12-engined cars per year! Yet both companies develop their own engine. What a waste of resources!

Sharing V12 bi-trubo engines sounds very reasonable. Of course they can be tweaked to eg. deliver more torque - less power in MB, while eg. less torque - more power in BMW. Also the engine response can be tweaked: more cultivated in MB, a bit more lively in BMW. Of course versions for RR & Maybach can be tweaked even further ...


*****

There will aslo be a cooperation in future on new-fuel & clean energy soulutions: new generation hybrids (incl. diesel hybrids), hydrogen internal combustion engines, diesotto engines, H2 fuel cell cars, electric cars, etc.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

Mercedes' old turbo V12 stomps a mutthole BMW's V12 so I wouldn't say that they aren't distinguishable in performance. The Mercedes V12 couldn't be more distinguished. BMW's V12 has never been the upgrade it should have been over their V8s, at least in the 7-Series.

M

I agree, a V12 engine and everything that follows with that are core Mercedes values and from my ignorant point of view I get a feeling that BMW have only equipped their cars with V12:s in order to, at least on paper, compete with Mercedes.
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

I dont like this..
Cause it aids BMW much more than MB..
Cause to be honest the V12´s bmw rocked for these last years arent great..

Besides the Mclaren one..but that is not used in BMW´s ..
 
Re: Daimler and BMW to announce possible partnership at the end of November

There are plenty of areas for collaboration before talking engines. Raw materials are a large part of car companies' cost. There is no reason these two giants should not team up their purchasing chains. From then on, each can put their own magic touch, and compete. It is very smart indeed, and a great case of the win-win concept.
 

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