M3/M4 CHRIS HARRIS: WHY ARE PEOPLE BEATING UP ON THE BMW M3?


The BMW M3 is a high-performance version of the BMW 3 Series, developed by BMW's in-house motorsport division, BMW M GmbH. M3 models have been produced for every generation of 3 Series since the E30 M3 was introduced in 1986. The BMW M4 is a high-performance version of the BMW 4 Series automobile developed by BMW's motorsport division, BMW M, that has been built since 2014. As part of the renumbering that splits the coupé and convertible variants of the 3 Series into the 4 Series, the M4 replaced those variants of the BMW M3. Official website: BMW M
There was a time when EVO's editorial team was at its zenith - quite a number of years ago - but now all they have left are Bovingdon, Meaden and Catchpole (each of whom I rate most highly) in contributing editor capacity. For the rest of their writers, especially incumbent editor Nick Trott, I see none of the outright talent of years past. I have been an EVO subscriber since the second year of its publication.
 
I think that ever since Harris exposed how Ferrari 'rigs' reviews to always favour the prancing horse, it has given readers and the interwebz at large, more of a reason to bring out the tinfoil hat whenever a particular car does, or does not win a review. Take it for what it is, an objective opinion - no reason to lose sleep over it.
 
You are right, there are some that are really good. I was talking in hyperbole, but the mags in general aren't what they used to be :).

I wouldn't have thought you were old enough to remember Setright and his generation.

And it makes sense, why would I read some journalists article on a car when it's just as easy to find tons of owners experiences. Those are the ones that hold the real value these days. I don't care all that much about how it's written, as long as I can understand it. For the fine grammar and neat sentences I'll read a novel.

And all owners have vastly different experiences of the same vehicles, I'd rather read a review by someone who is a professional reviewer thanks.
 
what is written is mostly crap by untalented people...........The good people have left


You are right, there are some that are really good. I was talking in hyperbole.......


Klier, why do you always do this? Say one thing, provoke a reaction, and then completely contradict yourself 6 hours later? You clearly don't mean what you initially said, so why do you get offended when (I mainly) react to your post? What on Earth do you expect?

"Talking in hyperbole". No. Hyperbole is when you exagerrate. What you're doing is TROLLING.

You'd have a lot more respect on here and the forum would go smoother if you stopped this bizarre behaviour.
 
I have to say that this is one of my favourite discussion topics when it comes to automotive opinion these days. I have, over the years, having read too many local and international (except, of course, non-English ones) publications, come to form my own view on automotive journalism and car reviews. I won't bore you with the details; whilst I'm certainly no fence-sitter on the matter, I prefer to think of myself as one who sits in a tree, observing from what is both a distance and a vantage point. [A contrived metaphor, I concede, but then I'm not getting paid to write this.]

Aside of raw test numbers I believe that there is no such thing as objective journalistic appraisal of an automotive product. Same goes for wine, golf clubs, condoms and just about any other product - you name it. Human beings, thankfully, by either the grace of God or the nature of chance, (depending on where your belief system resides) have the in-built predisposition for individualised personal preference. This individual preference is founded in millions of unique experiences, circumstances and influences and, in particular, how these experiences make us feel.

Cutting through the philosophical crap and straight to the point: every automotive journalist out there has a particular preference, a unique frame of reference and, also, a specific level of skill. The great thing about automotive journalists is that they can be judged against their peers given that their level of skill, depth of talent and quality of work is out there in the public domain for all to see. And therein lies the value of automotive journalism - the informed public know who they're dealing with, and can assess the level of credibility of the opinion being conveyed. Some journalists are better drivers than they are writers (e.g. Harris) and others, the other way round (e.g. the late and sublimely gifted scribe LJK Setright) and their opinion carries weight in different aspects of the product's evaluation. Simply put, without automotive journalism we have no credible and measurable frame of reference, hence...

The writing in EVO magazine is the best I've come across on any platform or medium. Their youtube channel kills it as well.
I would happily agree that EVO is still the best automotive publication still by a considerable margin. I will also say that they are no longer as incisively brilliant as they were in their heyday. Things change and people move on - when the part-owner and founder jumps ship, that's got to have an impact on the "culture" of the publication. We can only hope that long-standing stalwarts, Bovvers, Dickie and Catchpole continue to imbue the publication with what it is to be "EVO".

You are right, there are some that are really good. I was talking in hyperbole, but the mags in general aren't what they used to be :)

And it makes sense, why would I read some journalists article on a car when it's just as easy to find tons of owners experiences. Those are the ones that hold the real value these days. I don't care all that much about how it's written, as long as I can understand it. For the fine grammar and neat sentences I'll read a novel.

I can't disagree with you more on this, klier. As I've said above, at least automotive journalism has much more of a semblance of credibility than people posting on the internet. I couldn't care less if someone owns a Ferrari yet posts on a forum under the shroud of anonymity. Who are they? I'll tell you - they're nobody. And, hence, their opinion carries no credibility because there simply is no measurable frame of reference. Harris has alluded to this in a number of his online postings. At least with a chap like Andreas who so passionately posts about his driving experiences, we have a frame of reference - we know he's not Ken Block behind the wheel (he has never claimed to be) - but we also know where he fits in to the scheme of things and this makes his opinion that much more credible than Mr I've-owned-30-cars-in-the-last-ten-years Anonymous. With a journalist, like Chris Harris in this context, we can readily determine where he fits into the scheme of things.

Being a good writer and writing in fine grammar and neat sentences is equally important because the better the quality of the writing, the better the nuances of the entire experience are conveyed to us, the interested - and, thusly informed, mind you - readers.

I think that ever since Harris exposed how Ferrari 'rigs' reviews to always favour the prancing horse, it has given readers and the interwebz at large, more of a reason to bring out the tinfoil hat whenever a particular car does, or does not win a review. Take it for what it is, an objective opinion - no reason to lose sleep over it.

It should come as no surprise that a car maker in the business of making the best sports cars in the world would do their utmost to ensure the maximum outcome possible given the importance of such an outcome. If it were my product I wouldn't leave it to pure chance and journalistic whim in order to realise the best possible result when this result has a tangible effect on how my product is perceived in the market. Consistently good results creates a reputation and reputation sells cars.

I am personally bemused by a number of UK publication's stance on the new M3/M4 as their views are inconsistent with those from far and wide - including those of Chris Harris.

And, on the topic of journalistic consistency, I'd like to leave you on a lighter note with this, surely my favourite piece of automotive insight ever.

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I have to say that this is one of my favourite discussion topics when it comes to automotive opinion these days. I have, over the years, having read too many local and international (except, of course, non-English ones) publications, come to form my own view on automotive journalism and car reviews. I won't bore you with the details; whilst I'm certainly no fence-sitter on the matter, I prefer to think of myself as one who sits in a tree, observing from what is both a distance and a vantage point. [A contrived metaphor, I concede, but then I'm not getting paid to write this.]

Aside of raw test numbers I believe that there is no such thing as objective journalistic appraisal of an automotive product. Same goes for wine, golf clubs, condoms and just about any other product - you name it. Human beings, thankfully, by either the grace of God or the nature of chance, (depending on where your belief system resides) have the in-built predisposition for individualised personal preference. This individual preference is founded in millions of unique experiences, circumstances and influences and, in particular, how these experiences make us feel.

Cutting through the philosophical crap and straight to the point: every automotive journalist out there has a particular preference, a unique frame of reference and, also, a specific level of skill. The great thing about automotive journalists is that they can be judged against their peers given that their level of skill, depth of talent and quality of work is out there in the public domain for all to see. And therein lies the value of automotive journalism - the informed public know who they're dealing with, and can assess the level of credibility of the opinion being conveyed. Some journalists are better drivers than they are writers (e.g. Harris) and others, the other way round (e.g. the late and sublimely gifted scribe LJK Setright) and their opinion carries weight in different aspects of the product's evaluation. Simply put, without automotive journalism we have no credible and measurable frame of reference, hence...


I would happily agree that EVO is still the best automotive publication still by a considerable margin. I will also say that they are no longer as incisively brilliant as they were in their heyday. Things change and people move on - when the part-owner and founder jumps ship, that's got to have an impact on the "culture" of the publication. We can only hope that long-standing stalwarts, Bovvers, Dickie and Catchpole continue to imbue the publication with what it is to be "EVO".



I can't disagree with you more on this, klier. As I've said above, at least automotive journalism has much more of a semblance of credibility than people posting on the internet. I couldn't care less if someone owns a Ferrari yet posts on a forum under the shroud of anonymity. Who are they? I'll tell you - they're nobody. And, hence, their opinion carries no credibility because there simply is no measurable frame of reference. Harris has alluded to this in a number of his online postings. At least with a chap like Andreas who so passionately posts about his driving experiences, we have a frame of reference - we know he's not Ken Block behind the wheel (he has never claimed to be) - but we also know where he fits in to the scheme of things and this makes his opinion that much more credible than Mr I've-owned-30-cars-in-the-last-ten-years Anonymous. With a journalist, like Chris Harris in this context, we can readily determine where he fits into the scheme of things.

Being a good writer and writing in fine grammar and neat sentences is equally important because the better the quality of the writing, the better the nuances of the entire experience are conveyed to us, the interested - and, thusly informed, mind you - readers.



It should come as no surprise that a car maker in the business of making the best sports cars in the world would do their utmost to ensure the maximum outcome possible given the importance of such an outcome. If it were my product I wouldn't leave it to pure chance and journalistic whim in order to realise the best possible result when this result has a tangible effect on how my product is perceived in the market. Consistently good results creates a reputation and reputation sells cars.

I am personally bemused by a number of UK publication's stance on the new M3/M4 as their views are inconsistent with those from far and wide - including those of Chris Harris.

And, on the topic of journalistic consistency, I'd like to leave you on a lighter note with this, surely my favourite piece of automotive insight ever.

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Brilliant @martinbo totally agree with you, great write up. I love the way Chris Harris evaluates or does a review on a car cause he actually does it on how the car makes him feel and how it satisfies him as a driving machine. He is pure entertainment himself driving the cars with rear end out and opposite lock on each corner, laughing and grinning like a Cheshire cat.
 
@martinbo how do you rate the local South African publications and journalists? CAR SA is always my favourite (I have been collecting it for more than 30years), although I think it has lost its shine compared to 10 years ago, losing Hannes Oosthuizen, John Wright and John Bentley and latest changes to its once fantastic road test data formats. TOPCAR is good, much better than before. I would say the best era was early 90's and the 80's when their was CAR, WIEL, DRIVE, TOPCAR and the annual WHEELS
 
Aside of raw test numbers I believe that there is no such thing as objective journalistic appraisal of an automotive product. Same goes for wine, golf clubs, condoms and just about any other product - you name it. Human beings, thankfully, by either the grace of God or the nature of chance, (depending on where your belief system resides) have the in-built predisposition for individualised personal preference.

That whole post is great Martin. One of your best. But I just want to quote this part.

I completely agree that there is always going to be certain level of subconscious "bias" from a reviewer, or even just downright preference. What I DO have an issue with is when people then take a MASSIVE leap and conclude they're being paid to write a certain thing. I just don't see it. Ironically, it's the people making these accusations that are the biased ones, because they take objection to their favourite car not winning a group test, even when they (most of the time) haven't even driven any of the cars in the test! For every example people cry "bias", there is an example of that car NOT doing well in a test, but that gets ignored. "Autocar are a paid mouthpiece for JLR". Really? Why would they then place it second from bottom in a major article, the "Driver's Car of The Year"? As much as some verdicts don't make a lot of sense, that CERTAINLY doesn't make sense.

My own personal view is that car reviewers aren't looking at these products in the same way an average consumer is. Take the F-Type for example. Would I buy one? Not a chance. I don't like the brand, I don't like the old tech, I don't like the way the sat nav works. But if someone gave me one for a few days to just hoon around in, I'd probably think it was great fun. Old school, more raw than a 911 or M4. I drove one for half an hour and I can see why someone would give it a thumbs up.

That's what I think is happening in tests. Which journalist is thinking about the cold hard reality of ownership and actually PARTING with money? I don't think very many at all. They're just thinking about which car puts a smile on their face for the short time they have the keys.

Ultimately, it's just someone's opinion and the way some people get worked up about test results is bizarre. I respect EVO more than any magazine, but does the fact that the M4 came second from bottom in ECoTY put me off buying one? NO! It's still at the top of my list because it's right for ME.
 
That's what I think is happening in tests. Which journalist is thinking about the cold hard reality of ownership and actually PARTING with money? I don't think very many at all. They're just thinking about which car puts a smile on their face for the short time they have the keys.

Ultimately, it's just someone's opinion and the way some people get worked up about test results is bizarre. I respect EVO more than any magazine, but does the fact that the M4 came second from bottom in ECoTY put me off buying one? NO! It's still at the top of my list because it's right for ME.

Which is why many magazines have long term tests in the back of the magazine, living with the car for 6-12 months gives a totally different impression than a test which lasts for a couple of days or a few hours at a product launch. Car, EVO and TopGear run 15-20 cars for long term tests. Which is one of the reasons the first car I buy when I win Lotto will be a Range Rover 4.4 TDi, all the magazines appear to love it.
 
@ Martinbo
aside from the content of your post, thanks for the beautiful constructed english sentences. For me, as a non-native speaker, a joy to read. This
Being a good writer and writing in fine grammar and neat sentences is equally important because the better the quality of the writing, the better the nuances of the entire experience are conveyed to us, the interested - and, thusly informed, mind you - readers.
part of what you,ve written above couldn't be more true. I love this forum!
 
I'm honored being mentioned in Martin's post. Good to know I'm getting noticed.
 
@ Martinbo
aside from the content of your post, thanks for the beautiful constructed english sentences. For me, as a non-native speaker, a joy to read. This part of what you,ve written above couldn't be more true. I love this forum!

Even as a NATIVE speaker, they're a joy to read too! :D
 
I have to say that this is one of my favourite discussion topics when it comes to automotive opinion these days. I have, over the years, having read too many local and international (except, of course, non-English ones) publications, come to form my own view on automotive journalism and car reviews. I won't bore you with the details; whilst I'm certainly no fence-sitter on the matter, I prefer to think of myself as one who sits in a tree, observing from what is both a distance and a vantage point. [A contrived metaphor, I concede, but then I'm not getting paid to write this.]

Aside of raw test numbers I believe that there is no such thing as objective journalistic appraisal of an automotive product. Same goes for wine, golf clubs, condoms and just about any other product - you name it. Human beings, thankfully, by either the grace of God or the nature of chance, (depending on where your belief system resides) have the in-built predisposition for individualised personal preference. This individual preference is founded in millions of unique experiences, circumstances and influences and, in particular, how these experiences make us feel.

Cutting through the philosophical crap and straight to the point: every automotive journalist out there has a particular preference, a unique frame of reference and, also, a specific level of skill. The great thing about automotive journalists is that they can be judged against their peers given that their level of skill, depth of talent and quality of work is out there in the public domain for all to see. And therein lies the value of automotive journalism - the informed public know who they're dealing with, and can assess the level of credibility of the opinion being conveyed. Some journalists are better drivers than they are writers (e.g. Harris) and others, the other way round (e.g. the late and sublimely gifted scribe LJK Setright) and their opinion carries weight in different aspects of the product's evaluation. Simply put, without automotive journalism we have no credible and measurable frame of reference, hence...


I would happily agree that EVO is still the best automotive publication still by a considerable margin. I will also say that they are no longer as incisively brilliant as they were in their heyday. Things change and people move on - when the part-owner and founder jumps ship, that's got to have an impact on the "culture" of the publication. We can only hope that long-standing stalwarts, Bovvers, Dickie and Catchpole continue to imbue the publication with what it is to be "EVO".



I can't disagree with you more on this, klier. As I've said above, at least automotive journalism has much more of a semblance of credibility than people posting on the internet. I couldn't care less if someone owns a Ferrari yet posts on a forum under the shroud of anonymity. Who are they? I'll tell you - they're nobody. And, hence, their opinion carries no credibility because there simply is no measurable frame of reference. Harris has alluded to this in a number of his online postings. At least with a chap like Andreas who so passionately posts about his driving experiences, we have a frame of reference - we know he's not Ken Block behind the wheel (he has never claimed to be) - but we also know where he fits in to the scheme of things and this makes his opinion that much more credible than Mr I've-owned-30-cars-in-the-last-ten-years Anonymous. With a journalist, like Chris Harris in this context, we can readily determine where he fits into the scheme of things.

Being a good writer and writing in fine grammar and neat sentences is equally important because the better the quality of the writing, the better the nuances of the entire experience are conveyed to us, the interested - and, thusly informed, mind you - readers.



It should come as no surprise that a car maker in the business of making the best sports cars in the world would do their utmost to ensure the maximum outcome possible given the importance of such an outcome. If it were my product I wouldn't leave it to pure chance and journalistic whim in order to realise the best possible result when this result has a tangible effect on how my product is perceived in the market. Consistently good results creates a reputation and reputation sells cars.

I am personally bemused by a number of UK publication's stance on the new M3/M4 as their views are inconsistent with those from far and wide - including those of Chris Harris.

And, on the topic of journalistic consistency, I'd like to leave you on a lighter note with this, surely my favourite piece of automotive insight ever.

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Brilliant post, Martin!
 
Interesting to read Road & Track's view on the M3 in THEIR "car of the year" test.


"But is it too quick? Senior Editor Jason Cammisa thinks so. "This car is nauseatingly fast. It's also unacceptably traction-compromised. Reducing torque output by 150 lb-ft would do wonders here." He might be right. This car requires rheostat-precise use of the throttle to avoid unpredictable yaw. Or you can just leave the BMW's electronic nannies on, which might be smarter. Two or three generations ago, the M3 gave up on the idea of being the perfect modern 2002tii and decided instead to focus on power and track pace. If that's what you want, it's all here."

"The M3 is the only car to actually scare me at the Motown Mile. Going around the fast final turn, the torque spikes and sends me into a long, lazy, 100-mph slide that I don't recover until well down the front straight. Forget this being a German Trans Am; it's a German Corvette. "This car is nightmarish to control under power," concurs Cammisa. "It's so much work, and there's no joy to be had as a result." Having driven the M3 before, on a larger track, I suggest that it needs a bigger venue to shine. Cammisa agrees."


http://www.roadandtrack.com/features/magazine/2015-road-and-track-performance-car-of-the-year
 
Interesting to read Road & Track's view on the M3 in THEIR "car of the year" test.


"But is it too quick? Senior Editor Jason Cammisa thinks so. "This car is nauseatingly fast. It's also unacceptably traction-compromised. Reducing torque output by 150 lb-ft would do wonders here." He might be right. This car requires rheostat-precise use of the throttle to avoid unpredictable yaw. Or you can just leave the BMW's electronic nannies on, which might be smarter. Two or three generations ago, the M3 gave up on the idea of being the perfect modern 2002tii and decided instead to focus on power and track pace. If that's what you want, it's all here."

"The M3 is the only car to actually scare me at the Motown Mile. Going around the fast final turn, the torque spikes and sends me into a long, lazy, 100-mph slide that I don't recover until well down the front straight. Forget this being a German Trans Am; it's a German Corvette. "This car is nightmarish to control under power," concurs Cammisa. "It's so much work, and there's no joy to be had as a result." Having driven the M3 before, on a larger track, I suggest that it needs a bigger venue to shine. Cammisa agrees."


http://www.roadandtrack.com/features/magazine/2015-road-and-track-performance-car-of-the-year

Evo found the same issue with the M4 with Marino Franchitti (professional racer) at the wheel. Do you have 7+ free minutes?

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^Amazing, go back 2 gens or even 1 and the M3 would be the more benign and easier car than a 911. I wonder how things will change if and when 991 goes Turbo without the aid of AWD. 930s (not to mention the many GT2s) were an handful.
 
Far from the scathing review I was expecting for the M4 from Marino... I suggest that people do watch all 7 mins and then tell me what exactly is so wrong with the M4? All I see is a 3 series based sporting coupe that isn't as fast around a circuit as a much pricier Porsche 991 sportscar or perhaps as precise a steer... wow, that's a surprise. A 911 that's a better drive than an M3 - what a novel concept.

Franchitti, extols the responsiveness of the engine and transmission - no mean feat considering the engine is turbocharged. He also says that, with familiarity, he could go faster... and so on...
 
Far from the scathing review I was expecting for the M4 from Marino... I suggest that people do watch all 7 mins and then tell me what exactly is so wrong with the M4? All I see is a 3 series based sporting coupe that isn't as fast around a circuit as a much pricier Porsche 991 sportscar or perhaps as precise a steer... wow, that's a surprise. A 911 that's a better drive than an M3 - what a novel concept.

Franchitti, extols the responsiveness of the engine and transmission - no mean feat considering the engine is turbocharged. He also says that, with familiarity, he could go faster... and so on...

I don't think there's anything wrong with the M3/4. Rather the sheer amount of torque easily overwhelms the chassis and tires which falls in line with the comments from the Road and Track test as well. The 911 has less torque and a rear weight bias plus wider tires so it can put power down more effectively.
 
The rain on the M3's parade continues:

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BMW M

BMW M GmbH, formerly known as BMW Motorsport GmbH, is a subsidiary of BMW AG that manufactures high-performance luxury cars. BMW M ("M" for "motorsport") was initially created to facilitate BMW's racing program, which was very successful in the 1960s and 1970s. As time passed, BMW M began to supplement BMW's vehicle portfolio with specially modified higher trim models, for which they are now most known by the general public. These M-badged cars traditionally include modified engines, transmissions, suspensions, interior trims, aerodynamics, and exterior modifications to set them apart from their counterparts. All M models are tested and tuned at BMW's private facility at the Nürburgring racing circuit in Germany.
Official website: BMW M

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