S-Class (W116) Buying MB w116 450SEL, maybe 6.9?

[Giannis]

Do you have any more info/pics about the SLC?

BTW, I know a guy that sells a BMW 2002tii in splendid condition for 5.000€. I know the guy and the car so if anyone is interested

 

[coolraoul]

I'll see the SLC Tuesday evening and will post pics of it. The seller says it's really in a very good condition. It's yellow, second hand it seems, and the guy was member of a club for old cars.

I can't wait to see it...

The Beemers 2002tii are fabulous little cars. Is it orange ? However, I'm much more a Mercedes than BMW guy!

 

[VroomVroom]

Thank you for the comments! I think that, like many of you said, it would be too much of a risk, I can't even drive it to see if the drivetrain, gearbox or steering are right...And surprises are alwyas for the worst in these case...


However... I saw a splendid W107 450 SLC for sale in Paris... 1974, certified 140.000kms, and in a very good conditions. Only minor rust, the car is driven regularly.

It's for sale for 7.400€. I have no idea if it's too much for an SLC, if it's really in a good condition?

It would be less risky to buy such a car, with nothing to fix at all, only rust to take care of. I know it won't be completely reliable, it's 35 years old, but it won't broke every two days will it?

Sounds much more appealing as a daily driver


Oh btw have you got any pics of it?

 

[Merc1]

Nope. I hate the W140, I love the W116 S-Class. The hottest S-Class ever!

Just curious, why do you hate the W140?

M

 

[cawimmer430]

From the pictures, the general condition of the car looks to be ok. The interior looks to be in good condition, just dirty. In fact the interior of our 300SE W126 looks just about in the same condition - very dusty and with a few loose sections. Nothing a few screws and super glue can take care off.

The engine looks fine, again, just a little dusty and dirty. The "rust" you see on the cylinder manifolds are actually heat marks - our 300SE has them too. Did you start the engine? How did it sound? Generally a 4.5-l V8 of that period sounded very rough and almost sports-car-like according to what I've read (and heard at classic car shows).

Your biggest problem will the rust issues. Those need to be taken care of as soon as possible or you can kiss that W116 450SE goodbye. And that won't be cheap, my friend. But if you have the financial resources and really love the W116 and want to preserve and keep at least one more of them alive and on the road, it might be worth it. It all depends on your enthusiasm and of course money!

Would I advise buying this thing? Probably not if you don't want to spend a lot of money on fixing it up. The 450SLC you're talking about sounds good, but the issues they experience are the same as with most MBs and cars of that time: RUST.

Would you like to perhaps buy our 300SE W126? It has only see one winter and has NO RUST.

 

[cawimmer430]

Just curious, why do you hate the W140?

M

I always thought it looked so bloated and fat and extremely bland compared to its predecessors. But I guess I hate the C140 Coupes even more. Probably one of the ugliest and blandest MBs ever made.

 

[coolraoul]

I did start the SEL, it sounded quite rough, uneven, very American-V8 in fact. Dirty and fabulously appealing noise. Even more than "usually" because of an exhaust leak around the front doors. However the motor dies after a few minutes, and the car couldn't move (brakes stuck).

I don't love the 116 enough to invest a lot in it, I prefer a Coupe.

As far as your 300SE is concerned, Christian...well, if I make a move and buy such an old Merc, I'll go for a V8! There's no replacement for displacement, you see... And didn't it experiece some motor problems?

I'll go seeing the 450 SLC tomorrow, and see if it's in a good condition, drive it a bit, and report the result here with pics. Does the price (7.600€) seem okay if the car is as good as the seller says (very good, only minor rust)?

 

[cawimmer430]

I did start the SEL, it sounded quite rough, uneven, very American-V8 in fact. Dirty and fabulously appealing noise. Even more than "usually" because of an exhaust leak around the front doors. However the motor dies after a few minutes, and the car couldn't move (brakes stuck).

Doesn't sound that bad actually. Perhaps a small engine tune-up will fix the roughness aspect. In fact the engine bay might need a few new things like a new air- and oilfilter and timing belt etc. New spark plugs and a professionally done engine calibration will work wonders too!

As far as your 300SE is concerned, Christian...well, if I make a move and buy such an old Merc, I'll go for a V8! There's no replacement for displacement, you see... And didn't it experiece some motor problems?

You'd be surprised at how agile and quick the 300SE is. It is much lighter than a 6-cylinder W116 280S/280SE (SEL) and I've personally maxed it out at 225 km/h (instruction manual says top speed is 205 km/h ). W126 experts claim the 300SE is the best of the bunch as it provides spirited performance with sensible fuel economy. The 260SE is slug and the 420SE (SEL) is fast but thirsty. Forget the 500 and 560 models.

As for the engine, it works fine. The only problem is a rocker on the third cylinder which is slightly deformed and causes a light clanking noise when the car is idling. When you drive, you don't hear it. A single rocker will cost € 76.00 to replace.

I'll go seeing the 450 SLC tomorrow, and see if it's in a good condition, drive it a bit, and report the result here with pics. Does the price (7.600€) seem okay if the car is as good as the seller says (very good, only minor rust)?

The price sounds about right. According to an article on the SLC in Mercedes Enthusiast the prices for these cars are very high (provided they are in good shape) because they're very rare these days. Basically good ones will fetch high prices. Poorly taken care off models will be cheaper but they will have rust problems, guaranteed.

Ultimately the condition will be deciding factor as well as the extras onboard and of course the mileage. Need to look for SLC articles in my Mercedes Enthusiast magazines.

By the way...

450SLC Scans
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=450slcrb7.jpg

450SE (SEL) Scans
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=450seup0.jpg


These are from one of my smaller MB pocket books. Still need to find the bigger articles from Mercedes Classic etc.

 

[Gullwing]

Just curious, why do you hate the W140?
M

Because it is big, plain, and pigish.
I can't stand the way it handles, or lack there of.
The design is not very good, even Sacco doesn't like it.

W126 and W220 are both much better.

 

[cawimmer430]

Here are the 450SEL 6.9 scans you wanted from Mercedes Classic.


The Scans
http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=450se6901tm0.jpg http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=450se6902ey7.jpg http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=450se6903tz2.jpg http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=450se6905xp8.jpg http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=450se6906sc1.jpg

 

[coolraoul]

Doesn't sound that bad actually. Perhaps a small engine tune-up will fix the roughness aspect. In fact the engine bay might need a few new things like a new air- and oilfilter and timing belt etc. New spark plugs and a professionally done engine calibration will work wonders too!

The motor seemed quite fine indeed. It ran with 2 years-old petrol (surely water condensated in the tank too) and with the old filters, so I think the main problem came from here.

You'd be surprised at how agile and quick the 300SE is. It is much lighter than a 6-cylinder W116 280S/280SE (SEL) and I've personally maxed it out at 225 km/h (instruction manual says top speed is 205 km/h ). W126 experts claim the 300SE is the best of the bunch as it provides spirited performance with sensible fuel economy. The 260SE is slug and the 420SE (SEL) is fast but thirsty. Forget the 500 and 560 models.

As for the engine, it works fine. The only problem is a rocker on the third cylinder which is slightly deformed and causes a light clanking noise when the car is idling. When you drive, you don't hear it. A single rocker will cost € 76.00 to replace.

I'm not at all interested in performance, I will never take it to the topspeed. I'd be interested even if it was quite slow...My concern is more the noise (V8...mmhhh), the character. I'm a cruiser! So when I heard the 450, wow.. Sounded almost like an old Mustang...

The price sounds about right. According to an article on the SLC in Mercedes Enthusiast the prices for these cars are very high (provided they are in good shape) because they're very rare these days. Basically good ones will fetch high prices. Poorly taken care off models will be cheaper but they will have rust problems, guaranteed.

Ultimately the condition will be deciding factor as well as the extras onboard and of course the mileage. Need to look for SLC articles in my Mercedes Enthusiast magazines.

The SLC has A/C, leather, sunroof and alloys, so it's quite well equipped. It seems to have certified 140.000kms.

The SEL had sunroof, 4 electric windows, but no leather, no alloys, no A/C. 180.000kms on the clock.

Are the SLC as sensitive to rust as the W116? I heard they were not as rusty generally, when good serviced and maintained, is that true?

Are there ways to preserve an old car from rust? I keep reading "Hohlraumkonservierung", what is it in English (and French), how is it done, and at what cost? Have you any info about that?

 

[Merc1]

I always thought it looked so bloated and fat and extremely bland compared to its predecessors. But I guess I hate the C140 Coupes even more. Probably one of the ugliest and blandest MBs ever made.

I see. I wanted a W140 for years, but most seem to be in such bad shape now compared to other Benzes or similar years. The upkeep on them is as expensive as all getout and that might be the reason why a lot of W140 owner "let them go" downhill. I guess I'm the only one that really liked them, but ultimately they're just too big, too much car for me at this point.




M

 

[cawimmer430]

Are the SLC as sensitive to rust as the W116? I heard they were not as rusty generally, when good serviced and maintained, is that true?

All Mercedes' from that period are sensitive to rust. There was no real anti-rust guarantee in those days. Most of the rust on European Mercedes' actually tends to come from exposure to salt during the winters. In that sense you're quite lucky if you go for a Mercedes or any older car that spent most of its time in Spain, Italy or Southern France (warmer climates).

Are there ways to preserve an old car from rust? I keep reading "Hohlraumkonservierung", what is it in English (and French), how is it done, and at what cost? Have you any info about that?

You're thinking of Hohlraumschutz which literally means body cavity protection.

Hohlraumversiegelung ? Wikipedia

Eine Hohlraumversiegelung ist eine Konservierungsmaßnahme an Kraftfahrzeugen.

Dabei wird in Hohlräume von Fahrgestell und Karosserie, in die bei normalem Betrieb Wasser oder (feuchte) Umgebungsluft eindringen können, ein Rost-Inhibitor eingebracht. Dieser sollte gut kriechfähig sein und eine dauerhaft wasserdichte Oberfläche ausbilden. Bei Neufahrzeugen wird heute durchweg ein Hohlraumschutzwachs verwendet. Dieses kann auch bei Altfahrzeugen eingesetzt werden, hat allerdings den Nachteil, nach einigen Jahren brüchig zu werden. Alternativ werden Fette eingesetzt, die sich bei Erwärmung im Sommer verflüssigen und stets elastisch bleiben, die erste Wahl bei Altfahrzeugen.

 

[cawimmer430]

I see. I wanted a W140 for years, but most seem to be in such bad shape now compared to other Benzes or similar years. The upkeep on them is as expensive as all getout and that might be the reason why a lot of W140 owner "let them go" downhill. I guess I'm the only one that really liked them, but ultimately they're just too big, too much car for me at this point.




M

I always thought the C140 Coupes were "quickly designed" because they simply lacked elegance and were too bulky to even appear elegant. I got to drive one once from my town to a customers house an hour away. Boy, I had trouble driving this car because the steering wheel gave ZERO feedback. Even keeping it in a straight line on straightaways was a challenge. The steering feedback was that bad.

 

[Merc1]

Yeah they were very big and took a firm hand on the wheel to keep them on course. Kinda like a ship I guess...lol.

M

 

[coolraoul]

Yep that's it, Hohlraumversiegelung. I'll search a bit about that, could be a good idea if it's not too expensive!

I don't like these W140 much, either. A friend of my Dad had a W140 600SEL with Brabus kit and carbon brakes, quite impressive car! Never drove it though. I was very impressed by it back in time, it even had a fridge, and these little antenna going out in reverse...

 

[cawimmer430]

Yeah they were very big and took a firm hand on the wheel to keep them on course. Kinda like a ship I guess...lol.

M

Exactly!

 

[Gullwing]

M

I "like" the coupe better then the sedan.
If you can find a coupe for cheap then cut off the roof from behind the driver all the way back and make that space like a truck bed. CL Camino

 

[Merc1]

Wouldn't that be something. I don't know why but there are several older Benzes I want right now, but nothing could be more impractical for me right now. The upkeep on one like the W140 would be horrific! The R129 SL is the one I must have though.


M

 

[cawimmer430]

Yep that's it, Hohlraumversiegelung. I'll search a bit about that, could be a good idea if it's not too expensive!

The price will probably depend on who does it. A garage specializing in classic cars will more likely ask for more than your average run-of-the-mill garage that can do it but probably won't be as enthusiastic about it as the other garage (specializing in classics). Just an opinion.