Politics Brexit Politics

[Big Sam]

They record your GPS location, that's all that was required, some record of them being there during 2020 or before. Macron was aware of the deal being negotiated and as the French President it's clearly up to him to relay that information. A former French MP was the lead negotiator FFS, so zero excuses there.

Didn't blame them, I said, "it's because of that type of protest..." Having said that, the yellow shirt protest clearly spread.

They put themselves under duress by trying to please Remainers and existing exporters too much. In hindsight the correct Brexit was a no deal Brexit. Any halfway fair-minded person would see the EU's NI demands as BS. The EU is a $14tr economy and they pretended they were bothered about $200m-worth of cross-border trade from NI to ROI, just to screw RoUK out of ~$1.5bn of internal trade with NI and perform a land grab. If they're not prepared to undo that, f*ck the deal and f*ck them.

A few weeks ago you didn't even understand how the backstop worked, and now you're an expert on the whole deal?

 

[WBarnes]

A few weeks ago you didn't even understand how the backstop worked, and now you're an expert on the whole deal?

Regardless, the entire NI problem is based on the EU's pretence that somehow £200m of goods crossing from NI to ROI is going to break their $14tr economy. It's just a lie, there is no problem, only the EU scheming for a land grab.

 

[Big Sam]

Regardless, the entire NI problem is based on the EU's pretence that somehow £200m of goods crossing from NI to ROI is going to break their $14tr economy. It's just a lie, there is no problem, only the EU scheming for a land grab.

Nurse! Nurse!

 

[WBarnes]

Nurse! Nurse!

I think you've confused the internet with the button at the side of your bed.

 

[KiwiRob]

Regardless, the entire NI problem is based on the EU's pretence that somehow £200m of goods crossing from NI to ROI is going to break their $14tr economy. It's just a lie, there is no problem, only the EU scheming for a land grab.

Wait until Scotland gains independence and joins the EU, that's another hard border, trade between the two nations is in the billions.

 

[WBarnes]

Wait until Scotland gains independence and joins the EU, that's another hard border, trade between the two nations is in the billions.

The SNP don't have a budget for an independent Scotland, even if you factor out the fact that 63% of their exports go to RoUK and 90% of the rest pass through RoUK and increased borrowing rates for their new currency. Their deficit is preposterous even now, even before COVID-19. Sturgeon refuses to even talk about the budget for an independent Scotland because there isn't one, not without slashing government spending and massively increasing taxes. They have things real good right now despite their deficit too, free prescription drugs, free higher education, free elderly care, higher social benefits in general, all paid for by England. I swear Sturgeon must be on the Kremlin's payroll for wanting to leave.

 

[KiwiRob]

The SNP don't have a budget for an independent Scotland, even if you factor out the fact that 63% of their exports go to RoUK and 90% of the rest pass through RoUK and increased borrowing rates for their new currency. Their deficit is preposterous even now, even before COVID-19. Sturgeon refuses to even talk about the budget for an independent Scotland because there isn't one, not without slashing government spending and massively increasing taxes. They have things real good right now despite their deficit too, free prescription drugs, free higher education, free elderly care, higher social benefits in general, all paid for by England. I swear Sturgeon must be on the Kremlin's payroll for wanting to leave.

Budget or no budget I don't see the Scots remaining in the UK if given a second referendum.

You can say exactly the same about the UK in the EU, the UK had the best deal out of all the EU nations with opt outs on many key EU polices, Schengen, economic and monetary union, charter of fundamental rights, freedom security and justice, but that didn't stop idiots voting for it, now look at the shit the UK is in, it's not getting better it's getting worse, it's no wonder the Scottish and with a bit of a prod the Welsh will choose to leave.

You can see how desperate the UK is, the recent FTA with NZ was massively in New Zealand's favour.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[klier]

You lying PIECE OF SHIT.

YES! But which one is not a lying piece of shit?

Our Dutch PM is just as bad. Joe Biden is a half dead puppet. Putin a Gangster. Xi a communist criminal, Bolsonaro a combination of them all, etc. etc.

We are doomed. Glasgow is doomed and the world is doomed as long as humans are alive.
But the good thing is that 10 million years after we're gone, the world will have healed itself and new species will have emerged.

 

[WBarnes]

Budget or no budget I don't see the Scots remaining in the UK if given a second referendum.

You can say exactly the same about the UK in the EU, the UK had the best deal out of all the EU nations with opt outs on many key EU polices, Schengen, economic and monetary union, charter of fundamental rights, freedom security and justice, but that didn't stop idiots voting for it, now look at the shit the UK is in, it's not getting better it's getting worse, it's no wonder the Scottish and with a bit of a prod the Welsh will choose to leave.

You can see how desperate the UK is, the recent FTA with NZ was massively in New Zealand's favour.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

It's a tight call, a lot more Scots took part in the last independence referendum than the Brexit referendum. A higher number of Scots voted to remain in the UK than EU. Clearly the former was just a larger issue for them.

No! It really didn't, we were the second highest net contributor to the EU budget even with the rebate despite having a lower population and less MEP seats than France. We also had an EU migration rate 4 times larger than France's at the point of the referendum, which has associated costs and social impacts too. Schengen exemption only gave us the right to check individuals, not stop them if they were from the EU. Justice? What? The ECJ still had precedence over all UK courts.

Scotland in the UK
Scotland has 63% of its exports going to RoUK (only 18% to the EU), 90% of the rest passing through it and received £13-15bn/year from us over the last decade. Additionally they get lower borrowing rates whilst on the GBP and we pretend we accumulated the debt they rack up evenly across the country. Nobody in history has ever had such a good deal.

The UK in the EU
Britain had ~40% of its exports going to the EU after allowing for the Rotterdam effect and paid the EU £11bn net each year. Subsidisation of student tuition fees added yet more, both through direct subsidisation and payment into the Erasmus fund, which was supposedly part of the £7bn we got back, except we didn't, it went to EU students in the UK. Cost of Polish and Romanian convicts in UK prisons because the ECHR won't let us sent them home, not even counting the cost of the actual crimes. Yeah, that's right, the Lisbon Treaty saw countries brought into the EU that have ECHR-non-compliant prisons. Other social impacts like illegal wages, slave gangs.

So give me a break even comparing the British position in the EU to Scotland's position in the UK. The only way Scottish independence stacks up is if the EU is going to pay Scotland the same amount that we currently do, which would raise a more than a little anguish among other members.

Says who? That's just an opinion, it's likely that the NZ FTA was mutually beneficial, and nobody had to pay either party any money, nor rape their political system in the process, nor surrender fishing rights, nor have EU customs plonkers stationed between two parts of their country. It was the EU that screwed up the UK-NZ relationship in the first place.

This is the second such trade deal struck by the post-Brexit United Kingdom, after one agreed with Australia, and represents a back-to-the-future closer trade relationship that was severely curtailed when the UK joined the then European Economic Community in the 1970s. UK High Commissioner to New Zealand Laura Clarke has called it “the great abandonment” narrative.

 

[Big Sam]

The SNP don't have a budget for an independent Scotland, even if you factor out the fact that 63% of their exports go to RoUK and 90% of the rest pass through RoUK and increased borrowing rates for their new currency. Their deficit is preposterous even now, even before COVID-19. Sturgeon refuses to even talk about the budget for an independent Scotland because there isn't one, not without slashing government spending and massively increasing taxes. They have things real good right now despite their deficit too, free prescription drugs, free higher education, free elderly care, higher social benefits in general, all paid for by England. I swear Sturgeon must be on the Kremlin's payroll for wanting to leave.

I hesitate to give you credibility by responding, but here I go again...

The UK voted to leave the EU despite virtually unanimous agreement it would make the country poorer. These warnings have proven to be true based on hard facts, and with the Office of Budget Responsibilty (OBR) saying only six days ago that Brexit will hit the UK "twice as hard" as COVID. Despite this, the UK still voted for Brexit. Brexiters have been quoted as saying they wanted Brexit "at any cost". I can't think of anything less patriotic than willfully inflicting the economic damage that Brexit has done and will continue to inflict on the UK, at the same time as removing the freedoms and opportunities that millions of Brits have enjoyed for the last 40 years.

Scotland will vote to leave the Union, and I don't blame them.

 

[Big Sam]

We also had an EU migration rate 4 times larger than France's at the point of the referendum, which has associated costs and social impacts too.

Why do you continually ignore the proven facts that EU migration had a net benefit to the UK? This is why it's pointless discussing anything with you because you wilfully ignore facts.

Scotland in the UK
Scotland has 63% of its exports going to RoUK (only 18% to the EU), 90% of the rest passing through it and received £13-15bn/year from us over the last decade. Additionally they get lower borrowing rates whilst on the GBP and we pretend we accumulated the debt they rack up evenly across the country. Nobody in history has ever had such a good deal.

Why do you seem so upset at the prospect of an independent Scotland then?

Says who?

Well, UK farmers for one...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...news-UK-farmers-reaction-BBC-Radio-4-Today-vn

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-10-20...-huge-downsides-to-pms-new-zealand-trade-deal

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-new-zealand-deal-disgrace-b1943993.html

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...ort-exposes-boris-johnsons-shoddy-trade-deal/

Oh, and the Kiwis seem to walking away smiling if this TV report is anything to go by...

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That's just an opinion, it's likely that the NZ FTA was mutually beneficial,

Why is it likely? On what basis do you make that assumption? You don't think that the UK would accept a bad deal and then push the "we've just signed another trade deal" narrative, with a complicit Tory-sympathetic press? It's not like they have any credibility left after the almost daily lies of the last four years.

 

[Levi68]

new species will have emerged

and repeat the same mistakes...

it's a long boot loop

 

[KiwiRob]

It's a tight call, a lot more Scots took part in the last independence referendum than the Brexit referendum. A higher number of Scots voted to remain in the UK than EU. Clearly the former was just a larger issue for them.

No! It really didn't, we were the second highest net contributor to the EU budget even with the rebate despite having a lower population and less MEP seats than France. We also had an EU migration rate 4 times larger than France's at the point of the referendum, which has associated costs and social impacts too. Schengen exemption only gave us the right to check individuals, not stop them if they were from the EU. Justice? What? The ECJ still had precedence over all UK courts.

Scotland in the UK
Scotland has 63% of its exports going to RoUK (only 18% to the EU), 90% of the rest passing through it and received £13-15bn/year from us over the last decade. Additionally they get lower borrowing rates whilst on the GBP and we pretend we accumulated the debt they rack up evenly across the country. Nobody in history has ever had such a good deal.

The UK in the EU
Britain had ~40% of its exports going to the EU after allowing for the Rotterdam effect and paid the EU £11bn net each year. Subsidisation of student tuition fees added yet more, both through direct subsidisation and payment into the Erasmus fund, which was supposedly part of the £7bn we got back, except we didn't, it went to EU students in the UK. Cost of Polish and Romanian convicts in UK prisons because the ECHR won't let us sent them home, not even counting the cost of the actual crimes. Yeah, that's right, the Lisbon Treaty saw countries brought into the EU that have ECHR-non-compliant prisons. Other social impacts like illegal wages, slave gangs.

So give me a break even comparing the British position in the EU to Scotland's position in the UK. The only way Scottish independence stacks up is if the EU is going to pay Scotland the same amount that we currently do, which would raise a more than a little anguish among other members.

Says who? That's just an opinion, it's likely that the NZ FTA was mutually beneficial, and nobody had to pay either party any money, nor rape their political system in the process, nor surrender fishing rights, nor have EU customs plonkers stationed between two parts of their country. It was the EU that screwed up the UK-NZ relationship in the first place.

Scotland will leave it’s as inevitable as the sun rising tomorrow morning.

British farmers will lose out because NZ lamb is better and our dairy products are of a much higher standard.

The UK doesn’t gain anything because NZ has been import tariff free since 84. Nobody in NZ will buy UK lamb, the only dairy products might be cheeses like Stilton which can’t legally be made in NZ. There is nothing NZ can give you that you don’t already have.

 

[WBarnes]

Scotland will leave it’s as inevitable as the sun rising tomorrow morning.

British farmers will lose out because NZ lamb is better and our dairy products are of a much higher standard.

The UK doesn’t gain anything because NZ has been import tariff free since 84. Nobody in NZ will buy UK lamb, the only dairy products might be cheeses like Stilton which can’t legally be made in NZ. There is nothing NZ can give you that you don’t already have.

Only if they're really, really stupid and want to pay a shedload more for everything and higher taxes. And the EU would be taking on another Greece. If the EU was paying the UK an amount equivalent to 10% of our GDP every year, i.e. £150bn, there's no way we'd have left. JFC, UKIP wouldn't even have existed with that kind of subsidy in place.

Yeah but the deal is services heavy and the UK majors on services, so wins all round. Lamb and beef tariffs remain for 15 years, which will give UK farming time to improve/adapt, assuming what you're saying is correct..

Whenever the deal is signed, New Zealand will immediately remove all tariffs on incoming UK goods and services.

I think it's a good deal for all.

 

[Big Sam]

Only if they're really, really stupid and want to pay a shedload more for everything and higher taxes. And the EU would be taking on another Greece. If the EU was paying the UK an amount equivalent to 10% of our GDP every year, i.e. £150bn, there's no way we'd have left. JFC, UKIP wouldn't even have existed with that kind of subsidy in place.

I'm pissing myself that you think the average UKIP voter has a clue about the ins and outs of the financial relationship between the UK and the EU. U-Kippers voted to leave the EU because of a rabid fear of foreigners, and an overinflated feeling of self-worth as Brits.

 

[WBarnes]

I hesitate to give you credibility by responding, but here I go again...

The UK voted to leave the EU despite virtually unanimous agreement it would make the country poorer. These warnings have proven to be true based on hard facts, and with the Office of Budget Responsibilty (OBR) saying only six days ago that Brexit will hit the UK "twice as hard" as COVID. Despite this, the UK still voted for Brexit. Brexiters have been quoted as saying they wanted Brexit "at any cost". I can't think of anything less patriotic than willfully inflicting the economic damage that Brexit has done and will continue to inflict on the UK, at the same time as removing the freedoms and opportunities that millions of Brits have enjoyed for the last 40 years.

Scotland will vote to leave the Union, and I don't blame them.

I'd love to see the hard number behind that claim.

I'm pissing myself that you think the average UKIP voter has a clue about the ins and outs of the financial relationship between the UK and the EU. U-Kippers voted to leave the EU because of a rabid fear of foreigners, and an overinflated feeling of self-worth as Brits.

That's like saying that the average Remainer voted to stay in the EU because they thought it would be racist not to.

Like it or not, the number of people/users affect almost every aspect of planning and design. 10% of GDP buys a lot of stuff that would have helped cope with that.

 

[WBarnes]

Why do you continually ignore the proven facts that EU migration had a net benefit to the UK? This is why it's pointless discussing anything with you because you wilfully ignore facts.



Why do you seem so upset at the prospect of an independent Scotland then?




Well, UK farmers for one...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...news-UK-farmers-reaction-BBC-Radio-4-Today-vn

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-10-20...-huge-downsides-to-pms-new-zealand-trade-deal

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-new-zealand-deal-disgrace-b1943993.html

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...ort-exposes-boris-johnsons-shoddy-trade-deal/

Oh, and the Kiwis seem to walking away smiling if this TV report is anything to go by...

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Accept third party cookies

Why is it likely? On what basis do you make that assumption? You don't think that the UK would accept a bad deal and then push the "we've just signed another trade deal" narrative, with a complicit Tory-sympathetic press? It's not like they have any credibility left after the almost daily lies of the last four years.

Because it didn't, and there's no way anyone who actually lives here in a regular job believes that. The UK population has grown by 20% since 2000, where's the 20% extra schools and hospitals and road capacity? All those figures claiming they're a net benefit is utter BS, with gaping holes and omissions. If it were really a benefit then GDP per capita would be increasing at a higher rate than inflation, not that official inflation figures are particularly representative of the basic cost of living, mostly an underestimate.

Because it's incomprehensible. You give someone 10% of their GDP every year in raw revenue and they still want to leave. Like I said, nobody would have left the EU if they were giving us ~10% of our GDP every year, which is actually nearly $300bn - my earlier figure was wrong.

One of the losses from leaving the EU was services trade. All barriers on that between the UK and NZ are now lifted and lamb and beef tariffs remain in place for 15 years anyway. Also, a few unhappy people doesn't make it a bad deal.

 

[Big Sam]

I'd love to see the hard number behind that claim.

Why? So you can dismiss it just like you dismiss any evidence which is presented to you which doesn't fit your narrative?

Because it didn't, and there's no way anyone who actually lives here in a regular job believes that. The UK population has grown by 20% since 2000, where's the 20% extra schools and hospitals and road capacity? All those figures claiming they're a net benefit is utter BS, with gaping holes and omissions. If it were really a benefit then GDP per capita would be increasing at a higher rate than inflation, not that official inflation figures are particularly representative of the basic cost of living, mostly an underestimate.

Because it's incomprehensible. You give someone 10% of their GDP every year in raw revenue and they still want to leave. Like I said, nobody would have left the EU if they were giving us ~10% of our GDP every year, which is actually nearly $300bn - my earlier figure was wrong.

One of the losses from leaving the EU was services trade. All barriers on that between the UK and NZ are now lifted and lamb and beef tariffs remain in place for 15 years anyway. Also, a few unhappy people doesn't make it a bad deal.

So much written here is just utter nonsense. I'm not even going to waste my time even responding, as we've been here many, many times before. When you choose to ignore hard facts and take opinions as factual, it's literally futile even engaging with you.

 

[Big Sam]

That's me done with this thread. WBarnes, you can have it all to yourself. Most people on this forum don't care about Brexit, just like most Europeans now. The UK is irrelevant and they've moved on. It's just a shame Brexiters can't. Anybody would think Brexiters didn't get what they wanted!

It's pointless engaging with you because you have so little grasp of reality. It's like trying to convince you 2+2 = 4 and you're saying "it's Geoff Hurst in the 1966 World Cup!". And seeing as nobody else is here to engage in intelligent discussion from a pro-Brexit stance, it'll just die anyway.

Enjoy your vacuum.

 

[WBarnes]

That's me done with this thread. WBarnes, you can have it all to yourself.
Enjoy your vacuum.

Ditto, I have you on ignore anyway, I just feel compelled to reply to your garbage on this thread. Now that you're vacating it, it can take affect.