Politics Brexit Politics

[WBarnes]

But it's not money that would otherwise come to the UK!! Stop changing the argument. If the UK isn't part of the customs union, it doesn't suddenly get the tariffs that would otherwise go to the EU!! That's the point!




"Probably". Typical, blinkered "I'll assume my situation is typical" view. You have no idea whatsoever how other people are affected.




Again, you have absolutely no idea. You're just guessing. Judging by some of the comments you make, it sounds like you're a very small-minded individual. Besides which, this isn't about people who live in two countries. The border issues affect far more demographics than that, and trade and commerce.




You have no idea how often I'm in the UK. This month I'll be in the UK for roughly 50% of the month. I'm travelling back to the UK on Thursday. Next month I'll be in the UK more than I'm in the Netherlands. You talk utter crap.

WTF are you talking about? Of course the customs duties we collect come to the UK when we're not in the EU customs union. Where do you think they go?

I know my situation is typical. Most people do not have the time or money to spend more than a couple of weeks abroad each year, if that. For many it's not really even a proper holiday, they just have to fit the work they would have done during those weeks into the week before and the week after.

Well I did reference delays on exports as a negative. You have the blinkered view, your situation is completely atypical and you're complaining as if it affects everyone.

And that situation isn't typical and doesn't apply to 99% of people.

For someone who's continually demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the most basic elements of Brexit, such as the now defunct "backstop", you seem to have all the answers.

It's simple really, EUR200m worth of goods is irrelevant in the broad scheme of things, the EU should just grow up and deal with it and stop using it as leverage to try and make Brexit bad.

EU leaders denied a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, which expanded the bloc and introduced many disagreeable rules. Now part of that expansion is refusing to comply with those very rules. Poetic justice.

 

[Big Sam]

WTF are you talking about? Of course the customs duties we collect come to the UK when we're not in the EU customs union. Where do you think they go?

The UK in or out of the customs union are not either side of the same coin. I'm tired of having to explain this to you. Outside of a customs union the UK would set its own tariffs, and in fact have said they would remove tariffs on most goods, which would also hit domestic producers, but that's another story.

I know my situation is typical.

You really don't.

Most people do not have the time or money to spend more than a couple of weeks abroad each year, if that.

The rise of low-cost airlines such as Ryanair, EasyJet, WizzAir, Jet2 etc. suggests this is utter horseshit. I know because I control most of them. 18 million Brits visited Spain alone in 2019. On average, each Brit takes 3.9 holidays per year (2019 figures). In 2017 it was around 3 holidays per year. Just because you're living a pitiful existence, it doesn't mean other people are.

For many it's not really even a proper holiday, they just have to fit the work they would have done during those weeks into the week before and the week after.

Completely made up out of thin air.

You have the blinkered view, your situation is completely atypical and you're complaining as if it affects everyone.

And that situation isn't typical and doesn't apply to 99% of people.

I've frequently referred to the consequences of Brexit affecting British Citizens as a whole. In fact, there are some consequences of Brexit that benefit me, such as financially to the tune of tens of thousands of Pounds thanks to the Pound tanking in value. I've saved thousands on my British mortgage and buying British cars because I get paid in Euros.

Because I have morals, I would swap all that to have the UK remain in the EU, because it's better for the country as whole.

It's simple really, EUR200m worth of goods is irrelevant in the broad scheme of things, the EU should just grow up and deal with it and stop using it as leverage to try and make Brexit bad.

1) The EU doesn't need to do anything to make Brexit look bad. Brexit IS bad, as was predicted.
2) The deal was negotiated by Johnson and Lord Frost. Johnson won an election based opon it, and he described it as "fantastic" and "oven ready".
3) Johnson gave parliament very little time to scrutinise the deal. Johnson knew that if he did that, people would realise it was an awful deal.
4) Frost was given a peerage and is now Lord Frost, with a seat in the House of Lords, a group of unelected bureaucrats. The irony is unreal.

Despite all of this, you think it's up to the EU to solve it?

Tell me. Why don't you hold Johnson and Frost to account? They told everybody it was a fantastic deal. So, either they were lying, or they didn't understand the deal they'd just signed and was "oven ready" and would "get Brexit done".

Why are you not blaming them?

 

[Big Sam]

the EU should just grow up and deal with it and stop using it as leverage to try and make Brexit bad.

Vote Leave won the referendum. The Tories won a majority in parliament based on "getting Brexit done" and an "oven ready deal". It's nearly one year since the UK left the EU. The UK is apparently "independent" again (even though they were always independent). Yet the UK is asking the EU to help them out?

Welcome to life outside of the EU and being a small country.

 

[WBarnes]

They said they'd remove tariffs on most goods, not all.

My situation is definitely more typical than yours.

On average each of 65 million Brits took 3.9 holidays abroad? Can't wait to see you back that up with facts. 3 holidays does not mean 3 holidays abroad. Horseshit, no way. Frankly I would refuse to believe that even if you came up with some links, because I know it to be wrong. The fact you'd even think it might be right, shows how out of touch you are.

No. I can tell by the amount you type that you do f**k all.

The EU would have made any deal bad to prove Brexit was bad. This is why many aren't happy with Brexit and want no deal.

 

[Matski]

On average each of 65 million Brits took 3.9 holidays abroad? Can't wait to see you back that up with facts. 3 holidays does not mean 3 holidays abroad. Horseshit, no way. Frankly I would refuse to believe that even if you came up with some links, because I know it to be wrong. The fact you'd even think it might be right, shows how out of touch you are.

I'm not going to bother trying to back-up those specific claims, but researching data gathered by the ONS myself, the following is clear... in 2019 instances of a British person leaving the country for Holiday or visiting family/friends, was 82 million, 59 million of which was to the EU. Spain is indeed the most frequent destination, France would be second with just over 10 million, though these numbers likely include business travel.

A simple estimate based on total trips abroad divided by nights spent abroad says we go abroad for an average of 9.7 days per visit. If typical holiday entitlement is 5.6 weeks (according to GOV.UK), and assuming holidays will always be taken to encompass weekends, dividing the effective 39 days holiday by 9.7 days average out of the UK per time, would indicate about 4 trips out of the UK a year. It's a statistical average based on a crude model... but it accounts for the base data at least.. which is likely more accurate than just claiming you know what you know.... collectively we spent nearly a Billion nights abroad in 2019, you can't just hand wave that away.

 

[Deleted member 1071]

A simple estimate based on total trips abroad divided by nights spent abroad says we go abroad for an average of 9.7 days per visit. If typical holiday entitlement is 5.6 weeks (according to GOV.UK), and assuming holidays will always be taken to encompass weekends, dividing the effective 39 days holiday by 9.7 days average out of the UK per time, would indicate about 4 trips out of the UK a year.

WHOA !!

The rural areas of England and Scotland can be so beautiful. Why on earth are you Brits travelling abroad so much ?!? Simply must be business related travel, I suppose.

 

[Matski]

Why on earth are you Brits travelling abroad so much ?!? Simply must be business related travel, I suppose.

Business was 9.3% of travel to the EU in 2019.

The rural areas are alright. Snowdonia, the Scottish Highlands, the Lake District can be lovely, when it's not raining, but they can get a bit samey, and it's all fairly familiar culture and experience-wise. I think the fact Spain is the number 1 destination tells most of the story... a lot of British holiday makers just want to go and sit in the sun.

 

[Big Sam]

My situation is definitely more typical than yours.

Comparing either of our situations is irrelevant. The points I make are not specific to my situation.

On average each of 65 million Brits took 3.9 holidays abroad? Can't wait to see you back that up with facts. 3 holidays does not mean 3 holidays abroad. Horseshit, no way. Frankly I would refuse to believe that even if you came up with some links, because I know it to be wrong. The fact you'd even think it might be right, shows how out of touch you are.

I literally included the screen shot where the first two words are "holidays abroad". It doesn't matter anyway, because you even admit you would refuse to believe it even if I came up with some links. I did better than a link and posted a screenshot and you just refuse to accept it. This is why discussing anything with you is pointless, whatever the subject. You think you know better even when confronted with hard evidence.

I don't know why you find it so hard to believe considering you can get flights to Spain for £50. I have friends who have low to average incomes who holiday abroad four or five times per year.

No. I can tell by the amount you type that you do f**k all.

And your point is? I work less hours per week than the average person, but then controlling one of the busiest pieces of airspace in the world is not an average job. When the sectors are at full capacity, which they are now at certain times of the day, I make around five or six safety critical decisions every minute for up to two hours at a time, without a break. With each aircraft having on average 200 passengers, that's 30,000 people in my hands every two hours. You call it doing "f**k all". I call it having a rest. Why I choose to spend it arguing with an ignorant joint of ham is beyond me.

The EU would have made any deal bad to prove Brexit was bad. This is why many aren't happy with Brexit and want no deal.

Stop it with this "no deal" nonsense! The negotiations ended ten months ago!

 

[Deleted member 1071]

Business was 9.3% of travel to the EU in 2019.

The rural areas are alright. Snowdonia, the Scottish Highlands, the Lake District can be lovely, when it's not raining, but they can get a bit samey, and it's all fairly familiar culture and experience-wise. I think the fact Spain is the number 1 destination tells most of the story... a lot of British holiday makers just want to go and sit in the sun.

I've vacationed in the Scottish Highlands and the Lake District. It was a good 40 years ago though. Three weeks in a rented (from Ford Neerpasch in Krefeld, Germany. Yep-Jochen Neerpasch the proprietor) Ford Transit CI camper. Great time. When I was a professional, frequent flights to London and back were a requirement. It could become a bit exhausting and since retirement, I haven't been back. And yes-parts of Fuerteventura (Costa Calma and Esquinzo especially) are full of vacationing Brits.

 

[WBarnes]

I'm not going to bother trying to back-up those specific claims, but researching data gathered by the ONS myself, the following is clear... in 2019 instances of a British person leaving the country for Holiday or visiting family/friends, was 82 million, 59 million of which was to the EU. Spain is indeed the most frequent destination, France would be second with just over 10 million, though these numbers likely include business travel.

A simple estimate based on total trips abroad divided by nights spent abroad says we go abroad for an average of 9.7 days per visit. If typical holiday entitlement is 5.6 weeks (according to GOV.UK), and assuming holidays will always be taken to encompass weekends, dividing the effective 39 days holiday by 9.7 days average out of the UK per time, would indicate about 4 trips out of the UK a year. It's a statistical average based on a crude model... but it accounts for the base data at least.. which is likely more accurate than just claiming you know what you know.... collectively we spent nearly a Billion nights abroad in 2019, you can't just hand wave that away.

Here's why it's wrong. I work from home but nobody in the office I'm contracting too goes abroad more than once per year. That's an office of 30 people, all chartered engineers earning around or above average salary. But aside from that, the economic inactivity rate is 21.1%, that's more than one fifth not earning. 7% on minimum wage or below. Those people are very unlikely to be going abroad at all don't you think, that's about 30% . Aside from that, the vast majority of other people work 9-5 jobs, possibly with flex-time. Typical holiday entitlement is not 28 days outside of the civil service. The only employer that I knew giving that much was BNFL before it went private. Most companies give 20 days, very good ones give 25 days. Anything above that is seriously cushy. Usually 3 days of that is taken by Christmas shutdown. So in order to make the average 3.9 times given 30% not going at all, those people would need to be going abroad 4-5 times per year with 17-22 days holiday?

Aside from that 82 million/67 million is probably closer to the truth. That's more in line with people I know from the places I've worked. Most go once, a few go twice.

 

[WBarnes]

Comparing either of our situations is irrelevant. The points I make are not specific to my situation.




I literally included the screen shot where the first two words are "holidays abroad". It doesn't matter anyway, because you even admit you would refuse to believe it even if I came up with some links. I did better than a link and posted a screenshot and you just refuse to accept it. This is why discussing anything with you is pointless, whatever the subject. You think you know better even when confronted with hard evidence.

I don't know why you find it so hard to believe considering you can get flights to Spain for £50. I have friends who have low to average incomes who holiday abroad four or five times per year.




And your point is? I work less hours per week than the average person, but then controlling one of the busiest pieces of airspace in the world is not an average job. When the sectors are at full capacity, which they are now at certain times of the day, I make around five or six safety critical decisions every minute for up to two hours at a time, without a break. With each aircraft having on average 200 passengers, that's 30,000 people in my hands every two hours. You call it doing "f**k all". I call it having a rest. Why I choose to spend it arguing with an ignorant joint of ham is beyond me.



Stop it with this "no deal" nonsense! The negotiations ended ten months ago!

Well that isn't true based on track record.

Because it's wrong. 82 million instances of Brits going abroad, population 67 million. Family of 5 going once is 5 instances. Number of times is just 1.2-1.3ish.

They must be incredibly short holidays given my experience of private sector employment is 20-25 days with 3 taken for Christmas shutdown. Most people require holidays for more than just overseas jaunts too. Plus nearly 30% of the Labour market is either inactive or on minimum wage or less, and they have dependents in some cases.

Labour market overview, UK - Office for National Statistics

Estimates of employment, unemployment, economic inactivity and other employment-related statistics for the UK.

www.ons.gov.uk

National Minimum Wage Statistics - House of Commons Library

This briefing looks at trends in the value of the UK National Minimum Wage, the number of jobs paid at the National Minimum Wage and how the National Minimum Wage compares internationally.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk

Plus the total instances is 82 million for a population of 67 million.

I don't buy it, any pilot would nosedive the plane into the ground after listening to you for 30s.

Clearly they didn't end if you watch the news.

 

[Big Sam]

Here's why it's wrong. I work from home but nobody in the office I'm contracting too goes abroad more than once per year. That's an office of 30 people, all chartered engineers earning around or above average salary. But aside from that, the economic inactivity rate is 21.1%, that's more than one fifth not earning. 7% on minimum wage or below. Those people are very unlikely to be going abroad at all don't you think, that's about 30% . Aside from that, the vast majority of other people work 9-5 jobs, possibly with flex-time. Typical holiday entitlement is not 28 days outside of the civil service. The only employer that I knew giving that much was BNFL before it went private. Most companies give 20 days, very good ones give 25 days. Anything above that is seriously cushy. Usually 3 days of that is taken by Christmas shutdown. So in order to make the average 3.9 times given 30% not going at all, those people would need to be going abroad 4-5 times per year with 17-22 days holiday?

Aside from that 82 million/67 million is probably closer to the truth. That's more in line with people I know from the places I've worked. Most go once, a few go twice.

Evidence isn't what you observe! How about finding ACTUAL evidence instead of guessing? People don't work in the same way they used to. "Typical holiday entitlement". You're not in touch with the times!!

I've provided you with evidence but you refuse to accept it. It's how you approach every discussion.


Brits travel abroad more than any other nationality.

 

[Matski]

Here's why it's wrong. I work from home

That explains why you've got so much time to populate the "I watched...." threads. "Working" from home...

nobody in the office I'm contracting too goes abroad more than once per year. That's an office of 30 people, all chartered engineers earning around or above average salary

Anecdotal. If they're in an office where you are, they probably think sitting on the beach at Brid with a hankey tied to their head is the greatest thing since Heinz fitted a ringpull to their beans.

But aside from that, the economic inactivity rate is 21.1%, that's more than one fifth not earning. 7% on minimum wage or below. Those people are very unlikely to be going abroad at all don't you think, that's about 30%

Irrelevant. These facts (assuming they are facts) don't trump the numbers I've posted regarding travel abroad. People are travelling. Recreation, Culture, Hotels & Restaurants forms ~19% of what our government uses to determine the CPI, it's a major factor in individual spending in the UK. People you know may spend differently, but that would be anecdotal.

Aside from that, the vast majority of other people work 9-5 jobs, possibly with flex-time. Typical holiday entitlement is not 28 days outside of the civil service

25-28 days minus mandatory days (pro-rata'd to working hours) has been standard in every company I've worked for, for 20+ years, and I don't work in the civil service - but yeah, some employers take the piss, and some people just earn less holiday because they do less hours... but the figures used are the statutory right, so its a fair and reasonable basis for discussion, and not based on my anecdotal experience.

given 30% not going at all

Assumption. Next thing you'll be telling me, is that people on benefits don't have mobile phones.

That's more in line with people I know from the places I've worked. Most go once, a few go twice.

National numbers provide a truer picture than 'people WBarnes knows'.

 

[WBarnes]

That explains why you've got so much time to populate the "I watched...." threads. "Working" from home...

Anecdotal. If they're in an office where you are, they probably think sitting on the beach at Brid with a hankey tied to their head is the greatest thing since Heinz fitted a ringpull to their beans.



Irrelevant. These facts (assuming they are facts) don't trump the numbers I've posted regarding travel abroad. People are travelling. Recreation, Culture, Hotels & Restaurants forms ~19% of what our government uses to determine the CPI, it's a major factor in individual spending in the UK. People you know may spend differently, but that would be anecdotal.



25-28 days minus mandatory days (pro-rata'd to working hours) has been standard in every company I've worked for, for 20+ years, and I don't work in the civil service - but yeah, some employers take the piss, and some people just earn less holiday because they do less hours... but the figures used are the statutory right, so its a fair and reasonable basis for discussion, and not based on my anecdotal experience.



Assumption. Next thing you'll be telling me, is that people on benefits don't have mobile phones.



National numbers provide a truer picture than 'people WBarnes knows'.

Adding 1-2 hours travel time to the working day makes no sense and it's bad for the environment.

Of course, this is typical of the Remoaner attitude.

82 million instances divided by 67 million is not 3.9.

Bombardier -20 days, Rolls-Royce -20 days, BAE SYSTEM -25 days, BNFL - 28 days, James Fisher - 20 days. There's no f*cking way the average is coming out at 28 and 2 weeks into 4-5 weeks is not 4 (3.9). Even if you assume that every holiday from work someone goes abroad, rather than doing other stuff with the family, maintenance tasks, errands etc. Over Christmas most use around 5 days, and visit relatives in the UK or celebrate at home, so theirs 5 days gone. It just goes to show how out of touch some remainers are to even take such a figure at face value.

Fairly decent assumption, people without income, single mums etc. All going on 3-4 holidays abroad per year. My sister only has 3 holidays abroad per year and both she and her husband are medical consultants, own a practice and another business. So not particularly average.

82m/67m is actually about what I suspect. The problem with computers has always been shit in/shit out. That's why it takes someone with a decent grasp of figures to reason whether they're working correctly or not.

 

[WBarnes]

Evidence isn't what you observe! How about finding ACTUAL evidence instead of guessing? People don't work in the same way they used to. "Typical holiday entitlement". You're not in touch with the times!!

I've provided you with evidence but you refuse to accept it. It's how you approach every discussion.


Brits travel abroad more than any other nationality.

How many were business flights? My brother travels overseas a lot with business, but only once on holidays.

Because the numbers you're presenting are mathematically impossible given typical holiday entitlements. They're like inflation figures, not particularly accurate or well calculated. If someone tells me the Earth is flat, I'm not going to start Googling. I'm sure some of it is advertising, make people think the average is 4 times, so they holiday more.

 

[Big Sam]

How many were business flights? My brother travels overseas a lot with business, but only once on holidays.

What difference does it make considering the original point I made was about people travelling abroad, and therefore having to negotiate borders? YOU are the one who made it about "holidays". But this is what you do. Constantly disrupt the thread of a discussion.

Because the numbers you're presenting are mathematically impossible given typical holiday entitlements.

Somebody could have zero holiday entitlement and still go abroad 52 times in a year if they have the weekend off.

If someone tells me the Earth is flat, I'm not going to start Googling.

Yeah, because saying the average Brit has 3.9 holidays abroad per year is the same as saying "the Earth is flat".

I'm sure some of it is advertising, make people think the average is 4 times, so they holiday more.

I seriously must stop engaging with you.

 

[WBarnes]

Average number of holidays abroad from the UK 2022| Statista

In 2022, the average number of holidays abroad per person in the UK rose over the previous year but remained below pre-pandemic levels.

www.statista.com

Seen as you forced me.

Average number of holidays abroad from the UK 2022| Statista

In 2022, the average number of holidays abroad per person in the UK rose over the previous year but remained below pre-pandemic levels.

www.statista.com

So the average for the last decade is about 1.4-1.5, which isn't too far off 82m/67m.

More Brits heading off on holiday

Research shows people are taking more holidays but on a tighter budget.

www.abta.com

Holidays abroad, particularly longer holidays of seven nights or more, are proving especially popular. The number of foreign holidays of 7+ nights has increased to an average of 1.1 per person in 2019, up from 1.0 in 2018 and 0.7 in 2016.

3.9 is the figure including short trips in the UK, e.g. went to somewhere for the day/weekend, not abroad. It clearly says this in two links but as usual David Brent gets it wrong. I stand by my original remark that most people only spend 1-2 weeks abroad per year, which is supported by these links.

Typical out of touch Remainer who thinks that the average UK resident goes for 4 holidays abroad per year.

 

[Big Sam]

Average number of holidays abroad from the UK 2022| Statista

In 2022, the average number of holidays abroad per person in the UK rose over the previous year but remained below pre-pandemic levels.

www.statista.com

So the average for the last decade is about 1.4-1.5, which isn't too far off 82m/67m.

Why are you taking the average of the last decade when the discussion is about what is happening now (or at least pre-COVID)? It's to lower the figure.

It's amazing that someone who has constantly refused to accept data/evidence for a wide range of topics, all of a sudden is relying on data/evidence to make a point.

More Brits heading off on holiday

Research shows people are taking more holidays but on a tighter budget.

www.abta.com

3.9 is the figure including short trips in the UK, e.g. went to somewhere for the day/weekend, not abroad. It clearly says this in two links but as usual David Brent gets it wrong.

Not the figures I was referring to. The only actual evidence I referred to was 3 holidays per year in 2017, and I provided a screenshot for that. Besides which, travel is more than just holidays. Visiting friends and relatives is not included in the holiday figures. Business travel is not included in holiday figures. And it was YOU who switched the discussion to "holidays", as if that's the only reason people travel!

As usual, you disrupt and use strawman arguments so that nobody really has a clue what is being discussed.

I stand by my original remark that most people only spend 1-2 weeks abroad per year, which is supported by these links.
Typical out of touch Remainer who thinks that the average UK resident goes for 4 holidays abroad per year.

Ah, so you suddenly trust links now it suits you? Well, if I was you I would say "no way. Frankly I would refuse to believe that even if you came up with some links, because I know it to be wrong".

So, to use your words, I don't believe the figures because I know them to be wrong.

And, so you're talking about "UK residents" now are you? Which is it? Brits or UK residents?

 

[Matski]

Of course, this is typical of the Remoaner attitude.

Maybe. Maybe it was living next to Bridlington that made me a remoaner

Bombardier -20 days, Rolls-Royce -20 days, BAE SYSTEM -25 days, BNFL - 28 days, James Fisher - 20 days. There's no f*cking way the average is coming out at 28 and 2 weeks into 4-5 weeks is not 4 (3.9). Even if you assume that every holiday from work someone goes abroad, rather than doing other stuff with the family, maintenance tasks, errands etc. Over Christmas most use around 5 days, and visit relatives in the UK or celebrate at home, so theirs 5 days gone. It just goes to show how out of touch some remainers are to even take such a figure at face value.

It's not the average, it's the statutory minimum for full time workers.

Holiday entitlement

Holiday entitlement or annual leave - information for employers and workers on entitlement, calculating leave, taking leave, accruing leave and disputes

www.gov.uk

Statutory annual leave entitlement
Most workers who work a 5-day week must receive at least 28 days’ paid annual leave a year. This is the equivalent of 5.6 weeks of holiday.

Working part-time
Part-time workers are entitled to at least 5.6 weeks’ paid holiday, but this will amount to fewer than 28 days.

For example, if they work 3 days a week, they must get at least 16.8 days’ leave a year (3 × 5.6).

Use the holiday entitlement calculator to work out a part-time worker’s leave.
Irregular hours
People working irregular hours (like shift workers or term-time workers) are entitled to paid time off for every hour they work.

They might find it helpful to get an estimate of holiday entitlement by calculating leave based on days or hours worked in an average week.

Limits on statutory leave
Statutory paid holiday entitlement is limited to 28 days. For example, staff working 6 days a week are only entitled to 28 days’ paid holiday.

Bank holidays
Bank or public holidays do not have to be given as paid leave.

An employer can choose to include bank holidays as part of a worker’s statutory annual leave.

I get 28 days, my 'Leave' voting employee's also get 28 days. Are you suggesting that companies that lean towards Remain treat their workers better, and that companies that lean towards Leave ignore government rules on workers statutory rights?

Fairly decent assumption, people without income, single mums etc. All going on 3-4 holidays abroad per year. My sister only has 3 holidays abroad per year and both she and her husband are medical consultants, own a practice and another business. So not particularly average.

Anecdotal, also that's not how averages work. If you think anecdotal evidence is valuable, then I can hand on heart say that the ONE year (2015) in the last 20 that I actually used my full holiday allocation, I went abroad 4 times Germany, France, Netherlands and Belgium.... still had time for Christmas and New Year break too (and had 12 other weekends away in Britain)... and I'm pulling down nowhere near medical consultant money, infact, my salary is pretty average. Perhaps I personally place more emphasis on travel, guess that's just a remoaner thing...

... and since we're talking about anecdotal averages again ... you stated

nobody in the office I'm contracting too goes abroad more than once per year. That's an office of 30 people, all chartered engineers earning around or above average salary.

So by your own data, they are not representative of the national-holidaying-abroad-average (of 1.9×)... infact, they go ~50% less than average, so for every person like that you know, there must statistically be someone going abroad three times... like say... your Sister, who you think is "not particularly average"... so your conclusion that "That's more in line with people I know from the places I've worked. Most go once, a few go twice." is clearly not representative. Perhaps your experience of holiday entitlement is similarly skewed. This is why I don't like anecdotal observations being used as evidence, personally.

 

[Big Sam]

Maybe. Maybe it was living next to Bridlington that made me a remoaner



It's not the average, it's the statutory minimum for full time workers.

Holiday entitlement

Holiday entitlement or annual leave - information for employers and workers on entitlement, calculating leave, taking leave, accruing leave and disputes

www.gov.uk

I get 28 days, my 'Leave' voting employee's also get 28 days. Are you suggesting that companies that lean towards Remain treat their workers better, and that companies that lean towards Leave ignore government rules on workers statutory rights?



Anecdotal, also that's not how averages work. If you think anecdotal evidence is valuable, then I can hand on heart say that the ONE year (2015) in the last 20 that I actually used my full holiday allocation, I went abroad 4 times Germany, France, Netherlands and Belgium.... still had time for Christmas and New Year break too (and had 12 other weekends away in Britain)... and I'm pulling down nowhere near medical consultant money, infact, my salary is pretty average. Perhaps I personally place more emphasis on travel, guess that's just a remoaner thing...

... and since we're talking about anecdotal averages again ... you stated



So by your own data, they are not representative of the national-holidaying-abroad-average (of 1.9×)... infact, they go ~50% less than average, so for every person like that you know, there must statistically be someone going abroad three times... like say... your Sister, who you think is "not particularly average"... so your conclusion that "That's more in line with people I know from the places I've worked. Most go once, a few go twice." is clearly not representative. Perhaps you're experience of holiday entitlement is similarly skewed. This is why I don't like anecdotal observations being used as evidence, personally.

All good points.

The only reason holidays came up is because WBarnes was trying to deflect away the issues with borders as a result of Brexit. His first words on the subject were:

"It's not affecting me though and it's probably not affect that many other people either. Contrary to your beliefs, hardly anyone lives in two countries and continually travels back and forth. Most people only spend 1-2 weeks maximum abroad per year and don't give a rat's crap."

From that moment his point relied on proving people don't travel abroad much, while at the same time ignoring that people travel for more reasons than just to go on holiday, and hence why we're in this pointless discussion about how many times Brits go abroad.

It's deflection and attempt to create "noise" to the extent nobody has a clue who's saying what. WBarnes frequently ignores facts, instead using anecdotal evidence. It's utterly pointless even discussing anything with him. This is someone who felt confident enough to argue with me about air traffic control, despite having no expertise himself, and it's literally my job.