Politics Brexit Politics

[WBarnes]

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of what the backstop was. If the backstop was implemented, the UK would follow EU rules and regulations!! It's not "we follow EU regs or backstop". The backstop was there as a failsafe in case a future deal with the EU wasn't agreed. The default solution would be the UK stays aligned to EU rules and regs in order to avoid a border in the Irish Sea, and a border between Northern Irleand and Eire. This is why it was voted down three times by parliament and why Theresa May resigned!! It was because MPs decided a default to being alligned with EU rules and regs indefinitely was unacceptable.

I have explained this already, and included proof in black and white further up this page. Actual evidence and explanations from various sources as to what the backstop is. Instead of deflecting all the time, why don't you admit you haven't a clue what you're talking about? Why do you even get into discussions about topics you have no clue about? I suppose it's typical behaviour of a Brexiter.

Well that really isn't how the backstop was presented by the news at the time, it's almost like I've come from a parallel universe at times. But still bad since it basically implies staying in the EU to all intents and purposes. A better solution is that the EU just puts up with the EUR200m-worth of goods going over the NI-ROI border. At the end of the day, stopping a few unchecked but perfectly legal and edible sausages from reach ROI isn't as important as stopping EUR31bn-worth of illegal narcotics, 67 million unregistered firearms, or countless amount of people, sex, slave, child trafficking passing over the southern and eastern borders.

Forgot to mention, Jimmy. For what it's worth, I showed several German colleagues your posts about German politics. They all said you're talking utter horseshit. I don't know if they're right, so don't shoot the messenger.

But as we've discussed, people in elevated civil service service/NGO roles can't be relied upon.

 

[WBarnes]

The EU may be approaching the most hazardous maelstrom yet. Brussels conflict with Warsaw (or vice versa), Budapests' allegiance with Warsaw, violent refugee pushbacks on the Belarus-Polish as well as Bosnian-Croatian borders, Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz on the verge of stepping down due to his alleged involvement in a corruption scandal, Germany currently de facto rudderless, gazing into a very uncertain future and the prospect of a fervently "anti-debt union" future minister of finance (much to the dismay of Paris and Rome) are ingredients for a suspenseful scenario. A "perfect storm" that may be the ultimate test of the EUs' sustainabilty.

I do commend the Polish/Hungarian/Visegrad approach to managing disagreeable EU rules though, it's brilliantly simple, you simply ignore them. It could have prevented Brexit too. Immigration is too high, we're not leaving but we're going to cap it and run a points system, do as you please Brussels. We disagree with the decision of the ECJ on X matter and will therefore be ignoring it, do as you please. Yep, we're sending these convicts home, it's not our fault their homeland prisons don't meet EUHCR standards, do as you please.....

 

[Big Sam]

Well that really isn't how the backstop was presented by the news at the time

If you choose to get your news from the Daily Mail and The Sun, what do you expect?

Considering how long it's taken you to understand something which I've explained to you multiple times, with evidence in clear, black and white text, only for you to ignore it and claim to know better, I suspect it is YOU who is at fault, not the news. Or, maybe you choose your news sources a little better next time. I've never had an issue.

But still bad since it basically implies staying in the EU to all intents and purposes. A better solution is that the EU just puts up with the EUR200m-worth of goods going over the NI-ROI border.

So you want the EU to break the agreement that the UK negotiated, signed, and claimed was a deal soo good that the Conservatives won an election on, and which was only needed because it solved a problem the UK created?

Riiigghhhtttt.....


Tell me, Barnsey. You're obviously happy the UK has left the EU, but what in your opinion have been the negative aspects of Brexit during the last ten months?

 

[WBarnes]

If you choose to get your news from the Daily Mail and The Sun, what do you expect?

Considering how long it's taken you to understand something which I've explained to you multiple times, with evidence in clear, black and white text, only for you to ignore it and claim to know better, I suspect it is YOU who is at fault, not the news. Or, maybe you choose your news sources a little better next time. I've never had an issue.




So you want the EU to break the agreement that the UK negotiated, signed, and claimed was a deal soo good that the Conservatives won an election on, and which was only needed because it solved a problem the UK created?

Riiigghhhtttt.....


Tell me, Barnsey. You're obviously happy the UK has left the EU, but what in your opinion have been the negative aspects of Brexit during the last ten months?

No, it was TV news. I'm sure there was more to the backstop than that. Ah, the backstop was to avoid the Irish Sea border, but within that agreement, if the UK withdrew from customs border hen the same Irish Sea border would apply under the clause. So it was basically remain in the EU (de-facto) or customs border between NI and RoUK.

Absolutely, the NI Protocol is bad and unnecessary, let's break it. In hindsight we should have opted for the Polish deal, instead of debating over the Norway/Switzerland/Australia deal. Basically stay in the EU but do whatever we like as regards rules regardless. Fact is, it's working for them, and I suspected such a move would work when I suggested it back in 2014. I've even found the e-mail, here it is:

21/10/2014
Dear Sirs,

At the moment the policy on the EU, with respect to immigration reform, seems to be to threaten to do something we don't really want to do, so that they let us do something we do want to do. This is a hopeless game strategy. Why don't we instead do what we want to do and leave it to them to do something they don't want to do.

I.e. why don't we just cap immigration and refuse to pay any associated fines and leave it to them to kick us out. Worst case, if they do, which they won't, then we'll have a referendum on rejoining. At present however, the EU is struggling following the sanctions exchange with Russia, leaving them unlikely to risk further upset by kicking us out. Allowing a UK immigration cap vs losing the 2nd largest economy in Europe is a decision with only one likely outcome if we put the burden of the decision on them instead of us.

Yours Sincerely

 

[WBarnes]

Typo, first para above, should read.

"No, it was TV news. I'm sure there was more to the backstop than that. Ah, the backstop was to avoid the Irish Sea border, but within that agreement, if the UK withdrew from customs union then the same Irish Sea border would apply under the clause. So it was basically remain in the EU (de-facto) or customs border between NI and RoUK."

The customs union means all tariffs collected go to the EU, i.e. still paying the EU money.

 

[Big Sam]

The customs union means all tariffs collected go to the EU, i.e. still paying the EU money.

That's not "paying the EU money". That's not how that would work.

You're talking about things you know nothing about.


You ignored my question, so I'll ask it again. You're obviously happy the UK has left the EU, but what in your opinion have been the negative aspects of Brexit during the last ten months?

 

[WBarnes]

That's not "paying the EU money". That's not how that would work.

You're talking about things you know nothing about.

EU customs union in action | European Union

The EU’s customs union allows for the free movement of goods within the EU. Learn more about its rules, customs controls, and latest news and events.

europa.eu

Customs tariffs collected on imports from outside the union go to the EU budget.

You ignored my question, so I'll ask it again. You're obviously happy the UK has left the EU, but what in your opinion have been the negative aspects of Brexit during the last ten months?

1. Listening to you.
2. Realising that you can stay in the EU and simply ignore any rules that you don't like. I.e. The eat your cake and have it, a la carte menu option that was stated to be impossible. Also known as the Polish-Hungarian model.

There are obviously negative impacts, delays on exports, that's a real negative. Fake negatives include HGV driver shortage - that's just bad planning, there are more than enough people waiting to sit HGV tests to fill that shortage. Other fake negatives, shortage of farm workers - force unemployed people on benefits to work for them and force the farmers to pay them, rather than the taxpayer, which is what happened last time they tried forcing the unemployed back into work.*

*It seems the government had no problem with forcing the unemployed to work for their benefits, but it had a problem with forcing employers to pay them.

 

[Big Sam]

EU customs union in action | European Union

The EU’s customs union allows for the free movement of goods within the EU. Learn more about its rules, customs controls, and latest news and events.

europa.eu

Customs tariffs collected on imports from outside the union go to the EU budget.

Yes, I know. That's not "paying the EU money" though in the same way we paid the EU when we were members.

1. Listening to you.
2. Realising that you can stay in the EU and simply ignore any rules that you don't like. I.e. The eat your cake and have it, a la carte menu option that was stated to be impossible. Also known as the Polish-Hungarian model.

There are obviously negative impacts, delays on exports, that's a real negative. Fake negatives include HGV driver shortage - that's just bad planning, there are more than enough people waiting to sit HGV tests to fill that shortage. Other fake negatives, shortage of farm workers - force unemployed people on benefits to work for them and force the farmers to pay them, rather than the taxpayer, which is what happened last time they tried forcing the unemployed back into work.*

*It seems the government had no problem with forcing the unemployed to work for their benefits, but it had a problem with forcing employers to pay them.

You haven't really answered the question. You've just repeated things you've said in the past. There's a whole range of negatives you've just ignored. Delays on imports are a much bigger issue than exports, and the full rules are not even being implemented by the UK yet! The removal of the right to go work and live in 26 other countries (we can still do that in Ireland). What an absolute travesty that is. Mobile data roaming charges have come back in. Freedom to use your media accounts in other countries, like Netflix and Amazon. Not to mention the economic effects.

 

[Big Sam]

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There's a lot of truth in this. Based on past actions and the untrustworthy individuals in the UK government, this is about directing the narrative so that when it inevitably goes tits up, the blame can be deflected towards the EU. And with people like WBarnes just willing to lap up the lies, who can blame them?



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-protocol-coveney-frost-twitter-b1936013.html

 

[WBarnes]

Yes, I know. That's not "paying the EU money" though in the same way we paid the EU when we were members.



You haven't really answered the question. You've just repeated things you've said in the past. There's a whole range of negatives you've just ignored. Delays on imports are a much bigger issue than exports, and the full rules are not even being implemented by the UK yet! The removal of the right to go work and live in 26 other countries (we can still do that in Ireland). What an absolute travesty that is. Mobile data roaming charges have come back in. Freedom to use your media accounts in other countries, like Netflix and Amazon. Not to mention the economic effects.

We'd still be paying the EU money that would otherwise go to HM&RC, so of course it is.

Haven't noticed delays on imports. Rarely travel abroad. Don't care.

 

[WBarnes]

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There's a lot of truth in this. Based on past actions and the untrustworthy individuals in the UK government, this is about directing the narrative so that when it inevitably goes tits up, the blame can be deflected towards the EU. And with people like WBarnes just willing to lap up the lies, who can blame them?



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-protocol-coveney-frost-twitter-b1936013.html

There's no lie. The protocol isn't required. So unchecked goods pass from NI to ROI, there's like only EUR200m-worth, who really cares, it's small fry. Poland and Hungary certainly won't give a crap.

EU can't do this, EU can't do that, or course it can. Get real. EU doesn't want to do it is closer to the truth.

 

[WBarnes]

Viktor Orbán backs Poland in EU law spat

Thursday’s ruling put Warsaw on a collision course with the EU.

www.politico.eu

 

[Matski]

Haven't noticed delays on imports. Rarely travel abroad. Don't care.

Ah, the sweet insulation of ignorance.

 

[WBarnes]

Ah, the sweet insulation of ignorance.

Just stating facts, it doesn't affect me so I don't care. Roaming charges? I don't even have a mobile phone, I hate them.

 

[Big Sam]

We'd still be paying the EU money that would otherwise go to HM&RC, so of course it is.

No, that's not what would happen. It depends what tariffs the UK set. As Boris Johnson kept banging on about having no tariffs for imports into the UK, there wouldn't be much revenue to collect. So this isn't a case of money that would otherwise go to the UK, going to the EU. Again, this is part of your child-like view of how things work. A very, very simplified viewpoint.

Haven't noticed delays on imports. Rarely travel abroad. Don't care.

Why doesn't that surprise me.

1) Just because you don't observe something, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
2) Why doesn't it surprise me that someone with such a myopic, insular view of the World, doesn't travel abroad much? You should try it some day. It would open your eyes.
3) You'd have to be a complete idiot to think that problems on a large scale affecting trade/imports/exports won't affect you. You're in for a rude awakening.

There's no lie. The protocol isn't required. So unchecked goods pass from NI to ROI, there's like only EUR200m-worth, who really cares, it's small fry. Poland and Hungary certainly won't give a crap.

EU can't do this, EU can't do that, or course it can. Get real. EU doesn't want to do it is closer to the truth.

The EU has been straight throughout the whole process. The UK Government, on the other hand, have lied, twisted the truth, gaslighted people. Besides which, this isn't a case of having to believe someone. It's patently obvious just by looking at the evidence!

Just stating facts, it doesn't affect me so I don't care. Roaming charges? I don't even have a mobile phone, I hate them.

And here we have a typical Brexiter..."it doesn't affect me so I don't care".

What an absolutely dismal outlook to have in life.

 

[Deleted member 1071]

a mobile phone, I hate them.

Ha-same here ! But I've recently come to the conclusion that an Android has become one of modern lifes' necessary evils. Everything's a big QR-Code nowadays, it seems. Pisses me off. But as a self proclaimed "modern conservative", I recognize the frequent necessity to accept-and eventually embrace-change. Much about "The Good Old Days" wasn't so "good" at all. Not really into that reactionary, rearview mirror shtick, despite what some supercilious, sanctimonious "Woke Warriors" may suspect . And we Germans need to get our act together regarding digitalization anyway.

 

[WBarnes]

Ha-same here ! But I've recently come to the conclusion that an Android has become one of modern lifes' necessary evils. Everything's a big QR-Code nowadays, it seems. Pisses me off. But as a self proclaimed "modern conservative", I recognize the frequent necessity to accept-and eventually embrace-change. Much about "The Good Old Days" wasn't so "good" at all. Not really into that reactionary, rearview mirror shtick, despite what some supercilious, sanctimonious "Woke Warriors" may suspect . And we Germans need to get our act together regarding digitalization anyway.

I print off QR codes on the seldom occasion I use them. I'm not against technology, but if I'm not at work or at home, I don't want people contacting me. I also think they're a danger to pedestrians. They seem to make people miserable and cantankerous too.

 

[WBarnes]

No, that's not what would happen. It depends what tariffs the UK set. As Boris Johnson kept banging on about having no tariffs for imports into the UK, there wouldn't be much revenue to collect. So this isn't a case of money that would otherwise go to the UK, going to the EU. Again, this is part of your child-like view of how things work. A very, very simplified viewpoint.



Why doesn't that surprise me.

1) Just because you don't observe something, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
2) Why doesn't it surprise me that someone with such a myopic, insular view of the World, doesn't travel abroad much? You should try it some day. It would open your eyes.
3) You'd have to be a complete idiot to think that problems on a large scale affecting trade/imports/exports won't affect you. You're in for a rude awakening.




The EU has been straight throughout the whole process. The UK Government, on the other hand, have lied, twisted the truth, gaslighted people. Besides which, this isn't a case of having to believe someone. It's patently obvious just by looking at the evidence!




And here we have a typical Brexiter..."it doesn't affect me so I don't care".

What an absolutely dismal outlook to have in life.

Errr.... a customs union means that you have the same external tariffs as the EU. And yes, it goes to the Comrade Juncker's wine fund rather than HM&RC. So yes, it's giving the EU money. Part of the £350m/week was import tariffs. Educate yourself.

https://ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/bns/BN181.pdf

1. It's not affecting me though and it's probably not affect that many other people either. Contrary to your beliefs, hardly anyone lives in two countries and continually travels back and forth. Most people only spend 1-2 weeks maximum abroad per year and don't give a rat's crap.

2. No thanks.

3. Still waiting.

Yes, they've jumped straight to ridiculous demands and impositions. You don't need a customs border in the Irish Sea or in Ireland. Maintaining that they do, given the scale of trade, is simply ridiculous. EUR200m of legal goods vs EUR31bn of illegal narcotics alone per year??? Get a grip EU. The cost of having EU customs workers there outweighs the value of any non-conforming sausages getting through.

Says the guy living in The Netherlands, not even in the UK most of the time.

 

[Big Sam]

Errr.... a customs union means that you have the same external tariffs as the EU. And yes, it goes to the Comrade Juncker's wine fund rather than HM&RC. So yes, it's giving the EU money. Part of the £350m/week was import tariffs. Educate yourself.

https://ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/bns/BN181.pdf

But it's not money that would otherwise come to the UK!! Stop changing the argument. If the UK isn't part of the customs union, it doesn't suddenly get the tariffs that would otherwise go to the EU!! That's the point!

1. It's not affecting me though and it's probably not affect that many other people either.

"Probably". Typical, blinkered "I'll assume my situation is typical" view. You have no idea whatsoever how other people are affected.

Contrary to your beliefs, hardly anyone lives in two countries and continually travels back and forth. Most people only spend 1-2 weeks maximum abroad per year and don't give a rat's crap.

Again, you have absolutely no idea. You're just guessing. Judging by some of the comments you make, it sounds like you're a very small-minded individual. Besides which, this isn't about people who live in two countries. The border issues affect far more demographics than that, and trade and commerce.

Says the guy living in The Netherlands, not even in the UK most of the time.

You have no idea how often I'm in the UK. This month I'll be in the UK for roughly 50% of the month. I'm travelling back to the UK on Thursday. Next month I'll be in the UK more than I'm in the Netherlands. You talk utter crap.

despite what some supercilious, sanctimonious "Woke Warriors" may suspect.

Oh Jimmy, it's not a good look that you continue to make jibes like this, bearing in mind that asking you just ONCE to justify your comments about "political correctness" in the context of Salman Rushdie, resulted in you shutting down all conversation. If your point had substance to it, surely you could stand behind it instead of literally having no answer? Why don't you actually engage in a conversation about "political correctness" instead of metaphorically sticking your fingers in your ears. I'm here any time you want to do that.

 

[Big Sam]

Yes, they've jumped straight to ridiculous demands and impositions. You don't need a customs border in the Irish Sea or in Ireland. Maintaining that they do, given the scale of trade, is simply ridiculous. EUR200m of legal goods vs EUR31bn of illegal narcotics alone per year??? Get a grip EU. The cost of having EU customs workers there outweighs the value of any non-conforming sausages getting through.

For someone who's continually demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the most basic elements of Brexit, such as the now defunct "backstop", you seem to have all the answers.