BMW planning (sub-brand) FWD car

[klier]

It's like saying a Rolls is basically a 7 series in an expensive suit.

But it is,much more so than the Mini compared to a BMW (the Ghost at least, Phantom not so much lol)

 

[Giannis]

But doesn't the Clubman already achieve that level of everyday use? As for cross-shopping, I for one would seriously consider a Clubman vs a 1-Series. (It's not like BMW have gone out of their way to make it terribly difficult to compare.

)


BMW before had marketed the 1-Series not as the practical approach anyway. Indeed, in terms of interior space, it was compromised due to the RWD layout and the ability to fit a straight-6 longitudinally whereas class competitors could use transverse 4's and without intruding transmission tunnels. The whole appeal of the 1-Series rested on RWD driving dynamics, which is a purely emotional quality. In the segment, that was what it made it unique. Once that goes away, there's not much else to recommend it. Certainly not pricing because of the sheer volume that VAG products benefit from. Build quality? Err, something tells me the A1 won't be a rickety contraption glued together in a shed.
What if BMW were to introduce a RWD //Mini? At what point do we say there are enough niches? When micro-niches give way and blur into nano-niches...

The question I have for BMW is: What would a FWD BMW provide that a Mini can't?

To begin with, I don't believe that the Clubman is nearly as practical as the 1er. But it's more practical than a normal Mini. The Clubman is not offered as a 5door, it has a smaller trunk than the 1er, while with an 1er, 5 adults can travel with acceptable comfort. The 1er also, doesn't have the retro design that Mini has. It's less offensive.

Regarding what you say, about the 1er's compromise of interior space for longitudinally mounted engines: I believe that this is the strong point of the 1er. Fantastic driving dynamics, comming from the RWD lay-out and the I6 engines, while still being acceptable as a practical car. Probably an A3 has more interior space, but it just doesn't drive as an 1er.

Last, that final question is the million dollar question. I'll try to answer it:

I guess that BMW wants to keep Mini as a fashion brand with unique retro design, while it finds it expensive to launch a completely new brand under the Isetta name for their new generation of city cars. And offering them with the BMW badge is the easy and cheap way to go. As for the why not offer a RWD (probably hybrid) city-car, the answer is (a) lower the cost and (b) there is no need for the edge in driving dynamics that the RWD configuration provides, in a hybrid city-car, which is supposed to be cheap to run, eco-friendly and ultra compact. It's not supposed to drift.

 

[Monster]

The reality is that 99% of people view them as entirely separate individual companies, just the way BMW intended.

It's like saying a Rolls is basically a 7 series in an expensive suit.

Well, it is quite easy really. Here in Australia, the Mini dealership is either inside of the BMW dealership or right next to it, and owners have to bring their car back to BMW to be serviced. So based on this, BMW intended to let people know they own the Mini brand, and the cars are from the BMW group.

 

[Guibo]

Regarding what you say, about the 1er's compromise of interior space for longitudinally mounted engines: I believe that this is the strong point of the 1er. Fantastic driving dynamics, comming from the RWD lay-out and the I6 engines, while still being acceptable as a practical car.

Right, and once you lose that as it's been suggested and justified by some in this thread, what have you got?
I wasn't making the case for the RWD city car. I was suggesting that since it's OK to fill a nano-niche with an entirely new car FWD BMW the likes of which could already be done with Mini, would people likewise not question the filling of a nano-niche for a RWD Mini?
As for practicality considerations, it would probably be a whole lot easier to modify the Mini than to start an entirely new model line or sub-brand. The Clubman has less cargo space than the 3-door 1er hatch, but that has to be balanced against the Clubman's smaller footprint. This is the same company that is offering the 4-door Countryman (which has 20L more cargo space than the 5-door 1er, if you're concerned about that) and has god knows what else up its sleeves.

It's like saying a Rolls is basically a 7 series in an expensive suit.

I never said the individual models are the same, so you pretty much wasted your time by posting those pictures. I'm saying the engineering behind them, the dealer support, the service network, all that you would expect from a premium brand can already be had with the Mini. I find it hard to believe that
1) your typical Mini customer is totally unaware of BMW's involvement in developing and supporting the car, and
2) your typical Mini salesperson wouldn't play up this point as part of his pitch.

 

[Human]

Now then as expected this has become an interesting point of discussion and debate.

Back to the point of concern...in short as again expected no one in the entire motor manufacturers industry nor any current customer or future customer to the BMW brand, expected that BMW would produce a FWD car under the BMW badge. When BMW decided back in 2004 to launch a new entry level hatch and the models that followed on the same platform in the years to follow the EMPHASIS was on RWD! In keeping with BMW's dynamic handling and basically BMW's policy of building RWD cars.

Now all of the sudden in the blink of an eye ALL this has changed and the 'brand bible' has been thrown out of the window...So no matter what economic and strategic plan BMW has or whatever the long term - 'going forward' - strategy this decision holds for the brand, be it positive or negative, THE FACT OF THE MATTER / BOTTOM LINE / MORAL OF THE STORY is that BMW has made a radical decision at that and does put BMW's reputation at risk. Calculated risk on BMW's side or not....only time will tell....

Oh and one final thought, there is no NEED for a FWD BMW car, X-Drive was born out of need for obvious reasons.

 

[footie]

I think the chances are that more people who own a BMW are more likely to purchase a Mini as a second or third car for a family member but to promote the BMW brand I don't think the Mini is the right product for that. The Mini is a totally different product, it's styling and marketing are designed to appeal to a different type of person then what BMW look for their own brand products, there isn't enough connection between the two brands. That is why I feel the 0 series is so important, something which obviously BMW are in agreement with.

 

[Monster]

I think the chances are that more people who own a BMW are more likely to purchase a Mini as a second or third car for a family member but to promote the BMW brand I don't think the Mini is the right product for that. The Mini is a totally different product, it's styling and marketing are designed to appeal to a different type of person then what BMW look for their own brand products, there isn't enough connection between the two brands. That is why I feel the 0 series is so important, something which obviously BMW are in agreement with.

So what type of customers are BMW aiming for with this new car? Those who want a small, stylish car will go for the Mini, those who want a slightly bigger car with a prestige badge will go for the 1 series. The rest of the people, the sensible, practical types, will just go for the VW Golf.

 

[Human]

^
Exactly! As I said in my post - "final thought there is no need for a FWD BMW"

 

[footie]

So what type of customers are BMW aiming for with this new car? Those who want a small, stylish car will go for the Mini, those who want a slightly bigger car with a prestige badge will go for the 1 series. The rest of the people, the sensible, practical types, will just go for the VW Golf.

What the 0 series will offer BMW is a model that will slot in below the 1 series in extenal size and price yet through it's more practical fwd platform offer as much interior space. It will still be fun to drive but in a totally different way to the rwd 1 series. I also see the 0 series competing along side the Mini but not necessarily stealing sales from it, mainly because those people who have already considering the Mini have disregarded the mainstream styling and practicality of the other brands for a slice of fun and uniqueness, something that separates the Mini brand from all others.

The only products I see that competes on it's level is the Fait 500 and Alfa Mito.

 

[Mr Robert]

What the 0 series will offer BMW is a model that will slot in below the 1 series in extenal size and price yet through it's more practical fwd platform offer as much interior space. It will still be fun to drive but in a totally different way to the rwd 1 series. I also see the 0 series competing along side the Mini but not necessarily stealing sales from it, mainly because those people who have already considering the Mini have disregarded the mainstream styling and practicality of the other brands for a slice of fun and uniqueness, something that separates the Mini brand from all others.

The only products I see that competes on it's level is the Fait 500 and Alfa Mito.

Then the 0-series could be built to compete with the likes of the Polo/Lupo.

 

[footie]

Then the 0-series could be built to compete with the likes of the Polo/Lupo.

Please explain your logic of bypassing the Audi A1 and going cheaper again to compete with the Polo and Lupo?

dr Dunkel,

As a Mini owner, was my opinion correct about it's customers have already disregarded the bland styling of the mainstream brands for the unique styling and branding of the Mini?

 

[Mr Robert]

Please explain your logic of bypassing the Audi A1 and going cheaper again to compete with the Polo and Lupo?

dr Dunkel,

As a Mini owner, was my opinion correct about it's customers have already disregarded the bland styling of the mainstream brands for the unique styling and branding of the Mini?

I actually forgot about the A1

Styling was important in the choice (second only to how it drives), the sensible offerings from VAG never really got a second glance.

The 1-series came close but we went for the MINI.

 

[Human]

^
Then again BMW is factually a PREMIUM brand/product, thus if the strategy is to present a FWD car to compete under the A1 i.e. Polo etc...the car HAS to be priced accordingly and in line with the competition to be competitive and a success in return on BMW's initial investment. On the other hand if it is priced PREMIUM and it would be, would it sell? And how much of a price difference would there be between the 1er & 0er? You all think EU cities, but for a car of this size to be successful it has to be economically structured to sell in developing economies also.....IF BMW intends are low volume, premium, niche etc..then enJOY your FWD BMW's in the rich EU cities

 

[hector]

...

Styling was important in the choice (second only to how it drives), the sensible offerings from VAG never really got a second glance.

The 1-series came close but we went for the MINI.

having driven the fwd Mini and rwd 1er, would you say that a fwd car can be as ftd as a rwd? ive driven pretty sporty rwds(128, 330ci and 335)
but never a fwd like the mini(small and nimble, etc.) i'd be keen to read your perspective on this. the implication of my question is that perhaps this "0 series", by whatever name it receives, by virtue of it's tidiness might be very entertaining.

 

[Mr Robert]

having driven the fwd Mini and rwd 1er, would you say that a fwd car can be as ftd as a rwd? ive driven pretty sporty rwds(128, 330ci and 335)
but never a fwd like the mini(small and nimble, etc.) i'd be keen to read your perspective on this. the implication of my question is that perhaps this "0 series", by whatever name it receives, by virtue of it's tidiness might be very entertaining.

RWD is not the absolute ruler of the kingdom of driving enjoyment. It is just that the layout makes many things easier.

There are a number of FWD cars that can easily challenge many RWD cars for all out thrill of driving. Take for instance the Renault Sport R26.R, Peugeot 205 GTi, Honda Integra, JDM FD2 Civic Type R, Renault Clio Sports, Ford Focus RS... MINIs for that matter... they are all really nice driver's cars while still FWD. In the same time, there are a lot of RWD cars that are pure sleeping pills.

The manufacturer that wants to build a good drivers car needs to think of everything, his or her life is just a bit easier if the basic layout is good.

Lightness is essential here.

 

[hector]

interesting; you're so right about the "lightness"! sometimes i think that, for my next car, instead of getting another 1er or similar vehicle i'd go for a light, nimble fwd that would probably cost less and be more efficient, etc. much as i like my 128, it does feel a little heavy on it's feet, to me. unfortunately, most of the cars that you mentioned are euro only(America does suck in a lot of ways). maybe we'll get a next-gen hot focus or even fiesta.

 

[bmwownage]

RWD is not the absolute ruler of the kingdom of driving enjoyment. It is just that the layout makes many things easier.

There are a number of FWD cars that can easily challenge many RWD cars for all out thrill of driving. Take for instance the Renault Sport R26.R, Peugeot 205 GTi, Honda Integra, JDM FD2 Civic Type R, Renault Clio Sports, Ford Focus RS... MINIs for that matter... they are all really nice driver's cars while still FWD. In the same time, there are a lot of RWD cars that are pure sleeping pills.

The manufacturer that wants to build a good drivers car needs to think of everything, his or her life is just a bit easier if the basic layout is good.

Lightness is essential here.

I think it's not the driving pleasure that's the main problem - i mean we know BMW can make pretty impressive FWDs (Mini) but the point is the BMW badge is associated with RWD. And it's 100% true that their "city car" need not to drift or do anything fancy, but that's what BMWs should be capable of - so even if it's badged BMW, give it another name, seriously 0 series (zero series) sound absolutely ridiculous. give me a zero sixteen i ? zero thirteen d? M zero? geez..

 

[Mr Robert]

interesting; you're so right about the "lightness"! sometimes i think that, for my next car, instead of getting another 1er or similar vehicle i'd go for a light, nimble fwd that would probably cost less and be more efficient, etc. much as i like my 128, it does feel a little heavy on it's feet, to me. unfortunately, most of the cars that you mentioned are euro only(America does suck in a lot of ways). maybe we'll get a next-gen hot focus or even fiesta.

I think the US is ready for an hot hatch invasion. There's nothing stopping it.

Yeah, I rant on about lightness, but once you have tried a car on a diet, everything else feels... well, just like you say, a bit heavy on it's feet. And when you get that feeling, 100 more hp will not make a difference. It will just feel heavy and fast.

 

[hector]

...

Yeah, I rant on about lightness, but once you have tried a car on a diet, everything else feels... well, just like you say, a bit heavy on it's feet. And when you get that feeling, 100 more hp will not make a difference. It will just feel heavy and fast.

well, actually it will make a difference!; it will make the car even heavier!

 

[footie]

With the release of UK prices for the Audi A1 it's not rocket science to work out what price BMW will pitch the 0 series at.