BMW/Mercedes/Audi Design philosophies

[7saen]

Here is a part of an interesting PM conversation EnI and I had some time ago.. thought I'd post it here for it's about the same topic

-------------------------------

Hu§eindesign:
Well if you ask for my honest opinion, then I don't think that mercedes' design is going the right way. but it looks like I'm obviously one of the minority. Seeing that people are loving the new C-class which I think that there is nothing special about, I think people will love the next E and CLK too. Judging by the images provided by Autobild, which see to be accurate, the CLK will be nice, but nothing really special IMO, while the E looks kinda boring.. oh well...
I don't know whether they can keep up with BMW. If I have to judge the BMW is the winner for me, but I look at it with different eyes than the broad mass so what I think might mean nothing.
I'll have to wait for Audi's new designs under the leadership of Egger to judge.

EnI:
Currently the mass still loves the understated Teutonic conservative design. Unfortunately. While BMW have taken a huge risk with their design strategy. Yes, some of the design executions are very clumsy - but seeing the sketches & claymodels it looks like the problem is the production. Too complicated design for tooling?

I feel BMW designs are starting to calm down a bit. We will see more restrained designs from BMW - more refined & more evolutionary. Opas & omas are still not ready for another design jump. It looks like this generation of BMW cars is a tester for the future: to find out how further the design can go.

I find BMW a great alternative to "gray" design of other car makers.

I think Bangle has great ideas, but he lacks a refined aesthetic sense for details. Sometimes a composition & coherence is missing, yet this can be done on purpose - to make design look more interesting & special. But this is a huge risk in industrial design = playing poker. Yet with Concept CS it's now sure details are back in the game - especially in the cabin (but also outside).

I'm eager to see what will the "metal origami" bring to the industry in the future.

MB: nothing spectacular. I think all their current cars will age quickly like previous Mks did. They lack some modern design component - but it's MB after all: MB should look conservative.

Audi: I think their design should be more dynamic & emotional. More Alfa Romeo-ish yet done in German way. I find current Audies too bloated. The cars look like soap bars: too rounded. Latest TT, R8 & A5 are showing some shy attempts of Audi going a bit more emotional with design - at least with coupes.

Hu§eindesign:
It's not only the problem of tooling. Ith's the fact that deisgners aren't the ones who decide which proposal should be rolling on the streets. In most cases they are people who are not open for any risks. With such people sitting on the highest administration chairs cars like the Maybach get their boring uninspired looks.
In the past, Bruno Sacco managed to present conservative designs but they were still full of innovative ideas and design elements. Peter Pfeifer seems to be over-challenged with this role. You said it right. Their cars aren't ugly. they do look nice, but they're lacking the timeless spirit of older Mercs.

BMW is lucky with its adminstration board that's willing to take risks in order to keep their pioneer/innovater role.

Audi's design is something defferent than the others'. They are emphasizing their image of "cold design". it's pretty industrial and doesn't have much in common with the emotional design that Alfa or Aston martin are representing.
You also see it in their CI, their architecture and their ad campaigns. they always concentrate on Aluminum (Space frame) and Snow (Quattro). I think it's something that Audi has reserved for itself. They built their charakter with those elements and applied it to the whole image of the marque. That's why I don't like the new A5, bacase it doesn't seem to fit into the scheme.
Starting a fully new design revolution will force Audi to change their image which they were working on for ages. That's why I doubt that Egger will bring any groundbreaking design philosophies to the new Generation of Audi. that's just how I look at it..

EnI:
MB: I agree - it's the question of management. Just like in the case of VW. The challenge is to fully understand the brand: not only its past but only its future. I think they haven't yet answered the question "How should the future MB (or VW) look like?" It looks like they have no idea what to do.

BMW: And in this department BMW are very strong: they know what they want, they know how to do it, and they are determined & focused. Also showing this through their designs. What BMW have realized in the past was how important the factor of design would become. That's why they hired Chris - to revive the design component, role & organization within BMW AG. Mind DesignWorksUSA - executing not only the automotive design. Very design oriented. That's why I think you will feel extremely well at BMW.

Audi: I used to like Audi. In previous Mks. They were always the avant-garde of German design in auto industry. But right now BMW have de-thorned them from avant-garde throne. Audi has decided to run on cold industrial machine-like technological design. The technocrati design is OK, but it is rigid. Cold emotions. I personally hope they will go more emotional with Egger, but there is only a small chance for that - unfortunately. IMO an advanced brande like Audi shoud have an advanced avant-garde design: just like they had it in the past. I guess Audi / VAG management thinks cold machine design fits Audi core value "Vorsprung durch Technik" best. Pity.

Being avant-garde = being ahead of trends. That will enable BMW to always look fresh & new & have attention, while Audi will stay in the past, looking more mature. And who knows what will happen to MB. Yet trends are working for MB - the population worldwide is getting older, so perhaps neo-baroque style will survive - and so will MB: as an old-man brand. Who knows.

 

[SDNR]

Audi has decided to run on cold industrial machine-like technological design. The technocrati design is OK, but it is rigid. Cold emotions. I personally hope they will go more emotional with Egger,

I'm not in total agreeance with you guys, I personally don't think pure Audi design (Concept cars) are completely emotionless -- they evoke a kind of intellectual aesthetic -- they are the automotive equivalent of German electronic music -- BMW is like the music of Karlheinz Stockhausen and Mercedes is the music of Philip Glass. Please forgive my synesthetic examples if they appear strange. My point is, these designs are all expressive of our age -- they are all influenced by contemporary design and architecture.

I think Audi has the "personality" of the buildings of Herzog & de Meuron.

 

[EnI]

Thanks, H.


Another aspect came out recently :

Adrian van Hooydonk confirmed in latest interviews BMW moving back to shark-nose design (engineers has finally resolved the issue how to make shark nose complying to EU pedestrian law), and to more driver oriented dash / central console design.

It looks like BMW will play with all design aces they have in the next generation of cars: mixing past with the future. Kind a going avant-garde retro. Evolutionary revolution. New organic.

Cars with angry shark nose, wide horizontally stretched kidneys, angry looking quad headlights (with a help of angel eyes) with eyebrows, L-shaped rear lights, Hofmeister's kink, flame surfacing, typical BMW proportions, Bangle butt ver 2.0, typical BMW dual dials, driver oriented central console. All past + present design cues = future BMW design.

I guess BMW have found what they were looking fore: avant-garde modern & exciting look, still bit controversial - yet with all the traditional BMW design cues (some of them are missing on current models: eg. driver oriented cockpit & shark nose). And with much more attention to details ever seen on a BMW vehicles. And with more organic softer yet dynamic lines (especially in the cabin).

IMO the next generation of BMWs will be phenomenal: incorporating all the best from the past & present. Not so original, but more "back to the roots" - and IMO that will be very appreciated by BMW customers: the current ones who like avant-garde design, and again also the ones who love past BMW designs. A perfect mix. And with much more refined overall design - with attention to details & sophistication - something current BMWs not always posses. A field where Audi dominates in. BMW finally getting what is now missed.

Really, imagine: new BMWs with avant-garde exciting design, sharp & dynamic lines, new organic (softer), new modern (sharper) - yet with attention to details & sophistication of Audi.

Perfect.

So ... what's next? What kind of revolution are we getting in 2015?

 

[Imhotep Evil]

So shark nose and angry lights are back. he he

 

[LaArtist]

Something to occupie your brains with for a while:

Why is it that all the guys intrested/educated in design feel that MB are falling behind??
While the masses love the latest MB´s.. from the S to the C??

Is it beacuse we the others dont know any better than to love what in your minds is poor design?
or is it cause ppl who are into something to deep tend to focus on details and miss whats really appealing to the broad masses??

PS
no diss to AUdi.bmw or any other members...
just want some input on the issue

 

[Jdt90]

Something to occupie your brains with for a while:

Why is it that all the guys intrested/educated in design feel that MB are falling behind??
While the masses love the latest MB´s.. from the S to the C??

thats a good question, i wonder about that sometimes. I dont find the Mona Lisa to be that hot of a painting, but art buffs and teachers find it amazing.
it may be because the design guys follow the 'rules' or ideas of design to the T. and because the public know nothing about them, they are oblivious to the fact that the car they love isn't all that great design wise, but it is good to themsleves based on their own Aesthetic preferences.Or its the fact that they can see past the logo on the front of the car. Many believe that just because it has the 3-point star on the front that its automatically beautiful.
I was sorta disapointed in the S-class,M-class, and Gl-class.they are to inconsistent to me, or just really boring.

 

[LaArtist]

^your point is valid about the Star and the brand thing..
but with this latest CL..and more so the new C class ive seen that ppl who are far from MB fans are loving these designs..
so really i dont have a clue ..
lets see what the others think about the issue

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Looks only:
Yes, I also like the CL, the new C Avantgarde and CLS.
Hate the S klasse and GL, worst MB designs IMO (perhaps all time), and am kind of disapointed by the ML.

 

[7saen]

Is it beacuse we the others dont know any better than to love what in your minds is poor design?
or is it cause ppl who are into something to deep tend to focus on details and miss whats really appealing to the broad masses??

A vey good question actually.. This year in Geneva I met Brian Potter (our former admin at GCF) for the first time -after knowing him for 5 years now- and we were talking about the new C-class and stuff like that, and i told him that I'm really tired of looking at cars just to analyze the design of it rather than building a simple opinion on it: Do I like it or not?
My analyze and my understanding maybe all wrong and big BS, but I can't help it..

Anyway, to go back to MB: First of all, many of already know that I'm an MB fan, so I'm not just bashing them as a fan boy of an othr brand.
I said above, I don't think new MBs are ugly, they do have appealing looks, but I wholeheartedly agree with Tine that their design will age very soon.
IMO MB's design isn't as agood as in the past because it's lacking two very important points which are connected to each other: Originality and timelessness. And, there are also those struggled attempts to present MB as a sporty brand. Tine said it right IMO: MBs are and should be conservative. And that's what starts the conflict that MB's design managment seem to be overchallenged with. I'm not saying that it's a problem without a solution, but MB seemed to be sacrificing innovation in design for a sporty appearance. And that's what I think should never happen. Mercedes stands for innovation and originality more than for sportiness. They can't compete with Audi or BMW in that field, where they are already active in for decades.
Maybe this is what the markest demands. Sporty cars. but MB is really not the right name here IMO. They should do what they can do best: building elegant, classy cars. The world doesn't need another 3er or A4.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

It's nice to hear a Merc fan basicaly saying what I've also said.
MB big mistake is that at one point lost their focus it the atent to please them all, and with it part of its identity both on a brand and design level.

 

[Sunny]

Something to occupie your brains with for a while:

Why is it that all the guys intrested/educated in design feel that MB are falling behind??
While the masses love the latest MB´s.. from the S to the C??

Is it beacuse we the others dont know any better than to love what in your minds is poor design?
or is it cause ppl who are into something to deep tend to focus on details and miss whats really appealing to the broad masses??

PS
no diss to AUdi.bmw or any other members...
just want some input on the issue

My simplistic (and probably inaccurate) answer - Spiderman, the movie. It is a block buster, but it is not winning any awards at the Sun dance film festival. Same goes for cars or anything where a creative aspect is involved. You can call it sophistication or elitism depending on which side you are on - but nevertheless this dichotomy exists in society when it comes to appreciating works of art.

The new C class is a good example - it is a very handsome design and I am sure it will sell well - but it is going to start any new design trends - I find the design an amalgamation of design elements we have already seen in other cars - both Mercedes and non Mercedes.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Well looking at the tumultuous time MB has gone through and the rapid succession of CEO's, loss of key members of the design staff etc. it's no wonder MB design, engineering etc. has been somewhat confused. I believe Zetsche has recognized this and has publicly stated MB will return to it's roots. This will likely include a more resolved and consolidated/clearer design direction.

As much as I like the new C, when placed against the S and CL benchmarks the interior design is somewhat incongruous. However they have done a very very fine job with the exterior design of their 3 latests sedans/coupes, the S, CL and C. The ML, GL, R, CLS, B, & A are vehicles launched when MB was at its greatest crossroads and most confused.

Give the brand another 5 years yet and once again they'll be stamping their mark amongst the automotive design leaders.

 

[Centurion]

A vey good question actually.. This year in Geneva I met Brian Potter (our former admin at GCF) for the first time -after knowing him for 5 years now- and we were talking about the new C-class and stuff like that, and i told him that I'm really tired of looking at cars just to analyze the design of it rather than building a simple opinion on it: Do I like it or not?
My analyze and my understanding maybe all wrong and big BS, but I can't help it..

Anyway, to go back to MB: First of all, many of already know that I'm an MB fan, so I'm not just bashing them as a fan boy of an othr brand.
I said above, I don't think new MBs are ugly, they do have appealing looks, but I wholeheartedly agree with Tine that their design will age very soon.
IMO MB's design isn't as agood as in the past because it's lacking two very important points which are connected to each other: Originality and timelessness. And, there are also those struggled attempts to present MB as a sporty brand. Tine said it right IMO: MBs are and should be conservative. And that's what starts the conflict that MB's design managment seem to be overchallenged with. I'm not saying that it's a problem without a solution, but MB seemed to be sacrificing innovation in design for a sporty appearance. And that's what I think should never happen. Mercedes stands for innovation and originality more than for sportiness. They can't compete with Audi or BMW in that field, where they are already active in for decades.
Maybe this is what the markest demands. Sporty cars. but MB is really not the right name here IMO. They should do what they can do best: building elegant, classy cars. The world doesn't need another 3er or A4.

Valid points made Hussein but I do have a few objections. I agree that there has been a slightly clash in some recent MB designs where they have been a mix between sport and conservatism. I think Mercedes has done a great job attracting youngsters while staying true to their roots and keep the baby boomers happy with post modern designs.

Should Mercedes remain 100% conservative? No they shouldn't. They are not Bentley or Rolls Royce. Even if they were they will have to change and re-interpret their design philosophy to fit in with new trends and design movements. Even Bentley and RR has done that with their new models.

As for the latest MB, i.e S, C and CL I'd say they look very conservative and the only touch of sport they have are the the forward tilting rear and the line cutting across the sides of the cars. Those design cues have given the new models the touch they need in order not to look dull next to a new bimmer. The new C, S and CL look as much of a Benz as any MB which ever has existed.

My biggest objection is the comment about MB's designs aging soon? Not in a million years. If there is any manufacturer which develops well aging cars it's MB. Even when the kid on the block came out the sales of the w220 were still as steady as the empire state building up until the w221 was launched. The w203 C doesn't look to shabby either and neither did the old CL at the end of its life circle.

 

[LaArtist]

once again ppl tend to highlight the problems with the design for MB´s recent cars..when my question was.. why is it that ppl with knowledge of design feel that the design lacks something.. while the common man appriciates the design..

the only answer that was to my point and will get karma from me is that of sunny..
wich gives me the impression that you can flip the coin as to say...that the opinions of pros are either very accurate and current..
or you can say that the opinions are very anal.. ( in search for a better word)

PS
And as far as the againg issue goes.. i have to dissagree like a damn fool on this one..
the last generation of MB cars did not age badly.. in fact they aged superbly..
examples
W220,W215,W203,W211 and the SL.. wich is timeless..

 

[7saen]

Some of you guys seem to to quite get my point. Sorry for that
I was talking about this generation/ next generation of models not the last/previous ones.
talking about: W204/W221/W216(to a certain degree)/C207/W212

What I say is my opinion.. it doesn't represent any one else but me. Maybe there are designers/artists/design enthusiasts who think that what I'm writing is complete BS.. and I'm cool with that because I'm not forcing anyone to believe what I do.

 

[LaArtist]

^preach man..
about the new modells aging badly all i can say is time will tell..
i hope not..history says they wont.. and today to me it feels like they wont..
but lets see

for the rest of it.. it all then boils down personal taste..
the diffrence is only that one might write.. i dont like it.. or i love it..
and the other one might go into depth and analyze the design and give a more thorough explenation to why..
but the end result is the same.. the beauty is in the eye of the beholder then..

PS
You all MUST remember please....that im not on a mission to diss anyone.. or a certain type of ppl on this board..
as i enjoy the design crowds posts very much.. and i want to keep on doing so..

So finally if i have offended someone on my quest for the answer of my question..then im very very sorry..
please keep on participating as you have done.. dont let me be the one to make your contributions sound pointless..
as that is not my goal with this...
And i certainly dont feel that in depth discussion of designs are pointless

Just needed to make myself clear on the issue..

 

[SDNR]

A vey good question actually.. This year in Geneva I met Brian Potter (our former admin at GCF) for the first time -after knowing him for 5 years now- and we were talking about the new C-class and stuff like that, and i told him that I'm really tired of looking at cars just to analyze the design of it rather than building a simple opinion on it: Do I like it or not?
My analyze and my understanding maybe all wrong and big BS, but I can't help it..

Anyway, to go back to MB: First of all, many of already know that I'm an MB fan, so I'm not just bashing them as a fan boy of an othr brand.
I said above, I don't think new MBs are ugly, they do have appealing looks, but I wholeheartedly agree with Tine that their design will age very soon.
IMO MB's design isn't as agood as in the past because it's lacking two very important points which are connected to each other: Originality and timelessness. And, there are also those struggled attempts to present MB as a sporty brand. Tine said it right IMO: MBs are and should be conservative. And that's what starts the conflict that MB's design managment seem to be overchallenged with. I'm not saying that it's a problem without a solution, but MB seemed to be sacrificing innovation in design for a sporty appearance. And that's what I think should never happen. Mercedes stands for innovation and originality more than for sportiness. They can't compete with Audi or BMW in that field, where they are already active in for decades.
Maybe this is what the markest demands. Sporty cars. but MB is really not the right name here IMO. They should do what they can do best: building elegant, classy cars. The world doesn't need another 3er or A4.

That is precisely how I feel too.

I am also concerned that Audi is not following through with the great potential they have shown with recent concept vehicles -- they appear to be loosing focus -- Audi should always be clean with the only cut-lines being where the contours of the vehicle change.

Mercedes is a bit of a mess these days -- the CL is undoubtedly the best-looking coupé in recent times but it is not as great as it could have been. There are aspects of the CL which appear not fully resolved to me.

My honest opinion of BMW is, I personally don't love most of the vehicles - but I do respect very much what they are trying to do. However, the new CS is one of the best-looking cars I have seen for a long time .....but it is not a revolutionary concept at all, it could easily be a production car.

 

[SDNR]

My simplistic (and probably inaccurate) answer - Spiderman, the movie. It is a block buster, but it is not winning any awards at the Sun dance film festival. Same goes for cars or anything where a creative aspect is involved. You can call it sophistication or elitism depending on which side you are on - but nevertheless this dichotomy exists in society when it comes to appreciating works of art.

The new C class is a good example - it is a very handsome design and I am sure it will sell well - but it is going to start any new design trends - I find the design an amalgamation of design elements we have already seen in other cars - both Mercedes and non Mercedes.

I think you make excellent points Sunny.

The thing is, auto design is, in reality, "pop culture". Designing a car is not the same as designing an art museum. A car design has to appeal to popular taste ...hence, it cannot be too radical. It is also ridiculous to expect the public to educate themselves about what the designers were trying to achieve with a design -- the design should be self-explanatary and appeal to the tastes of the market -- in the end these are products which have to sell.

Chris Bangle has brought "show business" to car design. He has picked up on the global trend of "design as spectacle". In recent years architecture has become preoccupied with making bold statements (Form follows fantasy).

Frank Gehry's Museo Guggenheim Bilbao has become one of the most photographed buildings on the planet and is much more famous than any of the art it houses. The general public has little understanding of deconstructivism in architecture or the intentions of architects like Ghery, but they like the novelty of the designs. In my humble opinion, there are much better buildings than the Guggenheim Bilbao and better architects than Frank Gehry ...but he has become a star. The general public would probably not be so excited by the buildings of Peter Zumthor or Tadao Ando but they are extrememly talented architects doing very great work too.

Building by Peter Zumthor

Car design has always been a mix of high design priciples and fantasy ...in the 1950s Harley Earl (creator of the first concept car) from General Motors was responsible for some the most spectacular cars ever designed. He picked up on the popular American zeitgeist for "The Jet Age", "The Rocket Age", "The Atomic Age", and expressed these evocative ideas with designs which look like Disney creations -- these were fantasies for the popular imaginations of the 1950s.



In many ways Bangle is giving the market what it is wanting, he is inspired by high culture design (Zaha Hadid, Frank Gehry, Herzog & de Meuron, Daniel Libeskind, etc.) but is making it accesible for popular consumption -- Unlike those important architects, Bangle does not follow any particular rules or manifestos, it is really more an exercise in styling than any real design principles but it seems to be working well for BMW.

 

[Sunny]

As for design aging, I think some people are taking it a little too literally - and getting defensive about it. While how well a car ages is too subjective to be generalized in most cases, a better measure is the longevity of the the key design elements that make up a car. I can't remember that last time some one else adopted a Mercedes design element (sans the Koreans - of course ), while there are numerous recent cases of others adopting BMW design elements - the most famous example being the infamous bangle butt which is now sported in different variations from the S class to the Camry. It started a design trend that will far out live the car itself - which in turn of course also helps make the car not look too out of date. My .02 cents .

 

[LaArtist]

^fyi the so called bangle butt was first seen on a Maybach..