M2 BMW M2 Powertrain ?

[Levi68]

These are not facts nor insider infos, these are just my personal thoughts and speculations based on the facts and rumors we heard. So when I use "will" it does not mean it really will. The engine codes I have given may not be correct. What I call the N55Tu is the M GmbH modified 3.0l I6 N55, what I call the S55 is 3.0l I6 M Gmbh engine based on the N55, and what I call S66 is the 3.3l V6 M GmbH engine based on the S63 engine.




We have no specs yet, but we know the 1 Series F20/F21 are coming powered by the N55. These may be called 135i and M135i, and we would expect the M135i to come close to the 1 Series M Coupé E82. Following, we can expect the find the same versions of the 2 Series F22, called 235i and M235i. But here comes the big question:
If the M235i is already an M Automobile, what is about the M2 ?

The 1 Series M Coupé E82 is already very close to the M3 Coupé E92 if to look at numbers only. So will there be an enough large gap between the M235i F22 and the M4 F82 to place an M2 F22 ? All this depends on the engines. Whatever engine the M4 F82 will get, the S55 or S66, it will be a 6 cylinder engine, and the M253i F22 will also get a 6 cylinder engine, N55Tu. I do not see any place for a anything between. Suppose the M4 F82 will get the S66, the M2 F22 could get the S55 and the M235i the N55Tu, but would not most prefere the I6 of M2 over the V6 of the M4 ? I think yes. So there has to be another explication.

First of all we have to take at look at the N54. At the moment the N54 is present in only the 740i F01/F02, in the Z4 sDrive35i E89 and as N54Tu, in the 1 Series M Coupé E82 and in the Z4 sDrive35is. This engine will completely disapear, the 740i F01/02 LCI is going to get the new N55 so as the Z4 sDrive35i E89 LCI, and the N54Tu will the also be replaced by the N55Tu. The 1 Series M Coupé E82 will soon stop production and the Z4 E89 will soon get facelift so as the X1 E84. With this I expect then to see all M135i F20/F21, M235i F22/23, X1 M35i E84 LCI and Z4 M35i E89 LCI that will replace the Z4 sDrive35is E89, to get the new N55Tu.

This now makes me think, that the N55 engine that is said to be developped by M GmbH is the N55Tu, and not the S55. What then about the M4 F82 ? Well, I think the S66, based on the S63 is going to be fitted in. And now it does make sense to me. The S63 4.4l V8 engine is a true M engine, that is completely rebuilt. It was not built from a new sheet of paper, but based on the N63, however its development did need resources. To make the S63 more porfitable, engines derived from it, as the very discussed 3.3l V6 are makes alot of sense, regard of the untraditional configuration for BMW.
Talking about S63 derived engine I see anotehr new engine: a 2.2l I4, half a cylinder bank from the 4.4l V8. And this engine would be the perfect engine for the M2 F22 also thanks to its lighter weight.

Does it makes sense to have a cheaper M235i powered by a 3.0l I6 and a more powerful M2 powered by a 2.2l I4 ? If you look back in BMW's history it does make sense.
If we take example on the 5 Series E28, all versions we offered in the same time with I6 engine, though defferent, the 530i, the M535i and the M5. If we take example on the 3 Series E30, the 320i, the 323i and the 325i were powered by I6 engine whereas the M3 was powered by an I4.

To come to conclusion, eventhough I am surprised to see an I6 engine in the new 1 Series F20/21, I do not think the M235i F22 will be the new M2 F22, and as the M4 F82 does not get any detuned version of the 8 cylinder engine from the M6 F13, I do not see the M2 getting a detuned version of the 6 cylinder engine from the M4 F82. Deriving two engines from one will surely reduce costs, as many parts will be common. The M2 F22 powered by a 2.2l I4 will differenciate from the M235i F22 powered by an I6, and be a better car thanks to its lightness and better weight distribution.


My gusses:

BMW M6 F13 : 4.4l V8
BMW M4 F82 : 3.3l V6 (two cylinders chopped off)
BMW M2 F22 : 2.2l I4 (half a cylinder bank chopped off)

M135i F20/F22, M235i F22/F23, X1 M35i E84 LCI, Z4 M35i E89 LCI : all powered by the same modified 3.0l I6




What do you think ?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

What do you think ?

Once I'd read it was just your own speculation, and then I saw the several paragraphs of text, I really couldn't be bothered reading it.

As it's all just random speculation, what is the point?

 

[Denis91]

I've also thought about this. Because we know that the new M3/M4 will has 6 cylinder, no matter V or I form, we also know that engine will be more powerful than 420hp, probably 450hp. But what will receive M2? If top version of 2 series (235/M235) has 6 cylinder? Same engine that M3/M4 with less power? Around 360-380 hp?

 

[manuelf]

Levi,

we had these (lengthy) discussions on bimmer post already - as you know... since you participated there.
But no insider was so polite to give any insight
Scott said: F22M will get an I4. Maybe he is right. At least it would make sense as the M3 is also downsizing by 2 cylinders.
Since the M135i is said to get about 320hp, it can be expected that the M2 will get higher hp. Everything else would not really make sense...
The current 1M has 340hp - therefore I also expect the M2 to have a bit higher power output. Maybe not that much because there is a lot rumor that the upcoming M2 will become a bit lighter that the E82 1M.

So my speculation:
I4 with about 350-360hp.
Since I am skeptic that this can be reached with 2l displacement from the N20, I also expect something like 2,2 l displacement.

But what me puzzles most is the "release date".... Nothing has been said about this! Since 1M end of production is 1st quarter of 2012, the successor should be released latest in 2014. Not filling the gap in one to two years of a segment which showed to be very profitable for ///M and which has been heralded as the the new entry to get younger audience to the M-brand .... would be plain stupid IMHO.

 

[MathewBMW]

Levi, you couldn't be more clear to me. I share almost the same thoughts.

The N55 will be the base, surely. Maybe an N55Tü for the M2 and an S55 for the M4. "Is there a gap to fit three engines?". Yes, because we could see a hybrid I6, three turbochargers on the M4. And the gearbox 6MT (M2) and M-DCT 7-speed (M4) can help as well. It's not a brilliant text like yours, of course. But it is an interesting solution...

 

[Levi68]

Levi,

we had these (lengthy) discussions on bimmer post already - as you know... since you participated there.
But no insider was so polite to give any insight
Scott said: F22M will get an I4. Maybe he is right. At least it would make sense as the M3 is also downsizing by 2 cylinders.
Since the M135i is said to get about 320hp, it can be expected that the M2 will get higher hp. Everything else would not really make sense...
The current 1M has 340hp - therefore I also expect the M2 to have a bit higher power output. Maybe not that much because there is a lot rumor that the upcoming M2 will become a bit lighter that the E82 1M.

So my speculation:
I4 with about 350-360hp.
Since I am skeptic that this can be reached with 2l displacement from the N20, I also expect something like 2,2 l displacement.

But what me puzzles most is the "release date".... Nothing has been said about this! Since 1M end of production is 1st quarter of 2012, the successor should be released latest in 2014. Not filling the gap in one to two years of a segment which showed to be very profitable for ///M and which has been heralded as the the new entry to get younger audience to the M-brand .... would be plain stupid IMHO.

The A 25 AMG is rumored to get more than 350 PS from its 2.0l I4. So BMW can surely do better, and I think the "proven" S63 is a better base to start from than to bring the N20 to such high numbers.
Concerning the release date, yes I do see some problems. But for this we'll have the M135i, X3 M35i, Z4 M35i and later the M235i. Only in 2013 we should get the new M3 and in 2014 the new M4. So I'd expect the M2 in 2015.

 

[Sayyaaf]

Once I'd read it was just your own speculation, and then I saw the several paragraphs of text, I really couldn't be bothered reading it.

As it's all just random speculation, what is the point?

Betty: 1st don't take this wrongly and in no way this is linked to my other post in older thread, I totally respect every member here. But, you just dropped the ball again ! I didn't read his speculation/analysis too but do you see me bothering him, letting him down and insulting his own ideas ? Come on man. I know you are better than that !

Plus, talking about cars before debut (Solid Press release) is MASSIVELY speculation even by highly praisable media ! so what's new here ? let the guy breath and speak for his own ideas. I once respected your rational posts but lately you seem majorly irrational man. I believe even Scott's posts are sometimes speculation, or targeted propaganda (depending on the situation ) or simply testing the water.

Sorry for saying this in public but I appreciate your understanding

Regards.

 

[FC123]

BMW reveals new M135i hyper hatch - Autocar.co.uk

According to Autocar the M135i uses the engine code M54s?

Would make sense, if M indeed gets to do something to the engines to change the M from N. But it is a bit confusing, since the last R6 before the N-series was called M54, which in turn was the basis for the original N54. I'm so confused...

 

[martinbo]

The "M" is no doubt a typo. It should read N54S.

 

[FC123]

The "M" is no doubt a typo. It should read N54S.

For all we know, the 54 could be a typo or misunderstanding as well. I would be quite surprised if it wasn't the N55 being used in some way. And why use S instead of TU?

Time will tell. I'm just glad to see an R6 BMW in a small chassis.

 

[martinbo]

For all we know, the 54 could be a typo or misunderstanding as well. I would be quite surprised if it wasn't the N55 being used in some way.

Unlikely as the N54 is traditionally the twin turbo engine designation for the current N-generation petrol I6 engines with the N55 being reserved for the twin-scroll single turbo engine. All reports point to this being a twin turbo engine - for now at least.

And why use S instead of TU?

It appears the "S"is now the new suffix designation for BMW M Performance fettled engines (as opposed to BMW M engines) as witnessed with the tri-turbo N57S diesel and now this N54S. It's logical that this is the way it's going now:

N**S engines for BMW M Performance
S** engines for BMW ///M

 

[bilen]

Unlikely as the N54 is traditionally the twin turbo engine designation for the current N-generation petrol I6 engines with the N55 being reserved for the twin-scroll single turbo engine. All reports point to this being a twin turbo engine - for now at least.

My 2 cents...
I expect about 320 hp the same as the N55 in the 640i. I don't think BMW will drive cost by adding a new engine variant and the increased article cost this means. Increased weight and packaging also follows with two turbos.
And the advantage with 2 single scroll over 1 twin scroll is questionable if you want a specific output of 100-110 hp/l.
(With a 6 cylinder engine that is, if we are talkin 8 cyl then 2 twin scroll turbos is perfect. What you want in a turbo is 2 or 3 cyl per turbo/scroll.)
Regarding the Autocar article: I wouldn´t be suprised if BMW insiders called it twin charged and the journalists assumes it to be 2 turbos instead of twin scroll.

 

[FC123]

Unlikely as the N54 is traditionally the twin turbo engine designation for the current N-generation petrol I6 engines with the N55 being reserved for the twin-scroll single turbo engine. All reports point to this being a twin turbo engine - for now at least.



It appears the "S"is now the new suffix designation for BMW M Performance fettled engines (as opposed to BMW M engines) as witnessed with the tri-turbo N57S diesel and now this N54S. It's logical that this is the way it's going now:

N**S engines for BMW M Performance
S** engines for BMW ///M

I'm not saying you're not correct as I'm just speculating. But why wouldn't BMW use the (to my knowledge) less polluting N55 design for this?

 

[martinbo]

Simple; the N55-type engine will be used for mainstream models i.e. 335i and 135i. The twin turbocharger arrangement offers greater volumetric flow than the single-twin scroll turbo - thus affording better top end power. See Z4 35iS and 1M Coupé as examples.

 

[FC123]

Simple; the N55-type engine will be used for mainstream models i.e. 335i and 135i. The twin turbocharger arrangement offers greater volumetric flow than the single-twin scroll turbo - thus affording better top end power. See Z4 35iS and 1M Coupé as examples.

I understand that. But so far we're hearing of 320 hp. Well, within the possibilities of the N55. Along with the ever increasing emphasis on fuel economy it just looks a bit odd to me.

 

[Levi68]

It appears the "S"is now the new suffix designation for BMW M Performance fettled engines (as opposed to BMW M engines) as witnessed with the tri-turbo N57S diesel and now this N54S. It's logical that this is the way it's going now:

N**S engines for BMW M Performance
S** engines for BMW ///M

You may be right. The normal Bi-Turbo I6 is called N57N, and the Tri-Turbo I6 is called N57S. So yes it will be either N54S or N55S. But then why N54S for 320 PS, a number you have on both the the N54 and N55, and then why not just take the N54T that makes 340 PS?

We'll just have to wait a little. I still think the 135i will have the 306 PS N55 and the M135i will have a 340 PS N55S that I think we should find in the Z4 sDrive35is that would be called Z4 M35i.

 

[bilen]

The twin turbocharger arrangement offers greater volumetric flow than the single-twin scroll turbo - thus affording better top end power.

As I understand the first generation(s) of twin-scroll chargers had more of this problem, because the focus laid at first on separating the pulses in order to increase the scavenging effect which leads to bigger overlaps leading to better volumetric efficiency.
But todays twin-scroll turbos are much more optimized, designed from the ground up (pardon my swenglish? swedish-english).
The N55 already delivers 320 PS. I doubt the M135/M235 will get more than 5-10 PS more, if any.

Do you think the 135i will get about 320 PS with a N54s or do you think it will be more powerful? Because if it is to deliver the same power I see no need for a new engine.

I find this topic interesting. [After returning my 9-5 Aero due to the bankruptcy my next big car investment might be a M235, that is if it gets a normal BMW look and not a 1:er look/front...)

My 2 cents is N55 and of course marketed under twin power.

 

[Levi68]

The N54 will be joining the S65 and be put out to pasture very soon. It's ran its course.

The BMW M2 moves down to four cylinders but will still be the most powerful engine ahead of the 135i/235i. Again BMW are holding back on power mainly for the reasons of affordability and of course M2 will be the entry BMW M model but there will be opportunity to progress the car further.

My speculations were in the right direction. As the N54 is going to stop production, in the same way the the N54T is going to stop production. This then means the 1 Series M E82 and und thus the 1 Series Coupé E82 and 1 Series Convertible E87 are going to stop production and the Z4 sDrive35is E89 will also stop production. However BMW will replace these models at facelift. These are then the I6 engines we shall see:

• N55 making 306 PS found in all 35i
• N55 making 320 PS found in all 40i
• N55S making 335 PS found in all M35i

Following the X5 M and M6 sharing the same 8 cylinder engine, by the same logic the X3 M would share the same engine with the M4, and the X1 M would share the same engine with the M2. However we know the X3 M will not come before, so I'd expect the same for the X1 M. I would now expect to find the N55S engine making 335 PS in the following cars:

• M135i F20/F21 indirectly replacing the 1 Series M E82 until the next M235i F22/F23 and M2 F22
• Z4 M35i E89 LCI replacing the Z4 sDrive35is which is in some way the car instead of the Z4 M E89
• X1 M35i E84 LCI in some way replacing the X1 M E84 whose engine is not ready yet and would first be fitted into the M2 F22

Concerning the M4 F82 and M2 F22, the powertrains possibilities are now obvious:
M4 F82 with either

• 3.3l V6 based on S63

or

• 3.0l I6 based on N55

M2 F22 with either

• 2.2l I4 based on S63

or

• 2.0l I4 based on N20

Eventhough "insiders" claim the 3.3l V6 to be comming, if that is true I would then believe in seeing a 2.2l I4 also. But now, also as Martinbo has written in the M3 thread, it is hardly believable. I think just as the S63 is based on the N63, it is more logical to see an S55 based on the N55 and an S20 based on the N20.


By the "opportunity to progress the car further" I am thinking of a possible M2 CSL F22 making 360 PS and weighing 1300 kg. I want that thing badly and hope it will not look like the 1 Series F20/F21.


Time will tell.

 

[mini_cooper4]

3.3l V6 based on S63

or

2.2l I4 based on S63

Really ? an I4 2.2litre based on the V8... not to talk that a V6 is not much possible too as Martin already explained...

 

[Levi68]

3.3l V6 based on S63
or
2.2l I4 based on S63

Really ? an I4 2.2litre based on the V8... not to talk that a V6 is not much possible too as Martin already explained...

I know but I mentioned that because we have yet no proof of which engine is going to take place in the M3 F80.