Wolfgang
Kraftwagen König
Yes, that's probably one reason. Another one might be that the country is not that large, about the size of Germany, and the map data easier to handle.
Poll BMW G11/12 7-Series Vs. Mercedes-Benz W222 S-class Photo Comparison
- Thread starter Mr. Mercedes
- Start date
Yes, that's probably one reason. Another one might be that the country is not that large, about the size of Germany, and the map data easier to handle.
Wolfgang
Kraftwagen König
Yes, Mr. Mercedes. Remember your post.
Robert Lesnik designed the s-class. I read an interview of his where he stated that when he arrived at Mercedes there were 3 design proposals in clay for the S. Wagoner was not entirely happy with any of them so Lesnik begged him to let him come up with a proposal on one half of one of the clay models. Wagoner gave him 1 week. Lesnik says he had been dreaming of designing an S class since he was a child so he knew exactly what to do. And the rest, as they say, is history.
Il Hun Yoon was probably involved in the refinement of the design.
http://www.germancarforum.com/threa...ass-coupe-cabriolet.46976/page-27#post-658717
SDNR
Kraftwagen König
@Carmaker1 ......what an epic post!This is very hard for me, as I like to be as objective as possible. I was the grandson of a BMW man (importer) and still the son of a BMW gal (and Jaguar guy), but greatly in love with the W222. I have never personally had an S-Class in my immediately family growing up nor personally owned anything in this class for myself. I've grown up with the 7-Series since the E38 and my maternal grandfather owned an E32 as his last BMW.
By extended family and friends, I've come into contact with the various generations of S-Class here and there, but never at home. My father does not like Mercedes-Benz (except Geländewagen) the way the rest of his family does and prefers British makes (especially Jaguar) above everything, with the exception of Audi.
I love both brands for their own respective qualities, but will try to be honest. The amount of technology and refinement packed into the G11 certainly takes the 7er forward, but will this design last 7 more years is the question?
My only gripes with the G11 is the shaping of the headlights (they look swollen) and the dash design similarity to the F30. Even the E38 and F01 dash designs did not closely resemble that of the E36 and E90, the way the E32 and G11 have with the E30 and F30 respectively. The way the make up for this, is in the attention to detail, and superior fit & finish for their respective eras.
I talked with my mother about this and we both believe that some aspects of the S-Class are too overdone, while BMW has also underdone the G11 in some ways. Does not really matter anyway, as she will never buy an S-Class saloon over a 7er.
I had much more to say on this specific topic, but cannot really remember anymore. I am usually indecisive, that I'd honestly take both if I was in her position! You can't go wrong with either. As some of you said below, it is all about subjective taste.
That's how my father has always looked at things and has never really liked what Mercedes-Benz has to offer, except for the Geländewagen. He's strictly been about British autos and Audi, except when practicality and versatility is a factor. However, he has never liked the current XJ, but does like its replacement (a reason I will not want/need one). Again, I have no favourites of course. I am not too fond of Maserati, but they are still decent.
Well, that isn't quite fair to say, but I do agree somewhat. Some people are too badge-biased to the point, that Jaguar does not even get a chance and automatically render it inferior. This is "German Car Forum" not "British Car Forum, so it's understandably expected.
We do not exactly have the most resources to work with and brand cache like BMW and Mercedes-Benz do, so we've done what we can on gambles. Outside of BMW Individual, there have been some areas where BMW doesn't surpass Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz has only fully flourished as of late.
I can see why I post less here, as I am not an argumentative person, and quite tired of the endless digs thrown at Jaguar. GCF is still very much more objective, compared to many other sites, that would give me a migraine.
Oh really? We'll see about that then, as you're very unaware how we're in the middle of development on a very large project at the moment and the current XJ (X351) is not eternal nor fully representative of our best work under less limitations.
It is very helpful seeing what the W222 and G11 have to offer, but we've already made our own plans as well with substantial investment. If we are fully incapable, then I might as well as join the unemployment queue.
Robert Lešnik came to Mercedes-Benz in January 2009 and Karim Habib in March 2009, both towards the end of the W222 design process. Habib was in Advanced Design (influenced F800), with Lešnik somehow inserting himself into design of the W222. For the life of me, I cannot understand why both Lešnik and Mark Fetherston are continually given credit nearly every new MB's exterior design. Are they that good?
Il-hun Yoon was responsible for the W222 exterior, yet has been shoved into the background for mysterious reasons and late comer Lešnik getting the sole credit, when Yoon was still working on 1:1 W222 clay models in 2009 and did much of the sketches priorly. What did Lešnik do that was so spectacular and differentiating from Yoon's suggestions, that gave him such credit so last minute?
Yoon Sketch
Lesnik Post-Design Freeze Sketch
It's not so much Daimler/Chrysler era, but simply Peter Pfeiffer. When he got overall control in 1999, plus mixing the recent merger, things became a blocky mess. The W222 design was one of the first fully approved under Wagener 6 years ago and one he was allowed several months to oversee, compared to the CLS (C218).
Considering that Wagener designed the W221 himself in 2001, it is no wonder the transition from W221 to W222 went so well. Habib was promoted too late to preside over the G11 design process. The F800 was developed in 2009 for Geneve 2010 and looks to showcase Sensual Purity more.
One cannot solely blame Chrysler for Daimler's prior failures, they were both bad for each other. I have heard both sides of the story and neither is innocent. I do agree that Chrysler caused them to lose focus, as it was an unnecessary headache to additionally manage. Both companies were headed down the same path by 1993, thanks to Robert Eaton of Chrysler destroying Iacocca's visions and McKinsey's & Company's cost-cutting influence on Daimler-Benz.
The C218, W166, and X166 are of the "Aqua Dynamic" theme in my own opinion. The C218 and W166 were both frozen around the same time in 2008, while the GL followed after in 2009. Much of the design for the C218 was laid out in 2007 and probably the W166 as well.
The W222 was finished in 2009 and W205 in late 2010. The odd thing about the CLS is, that it underwent changes between design patent filings in June 2008 and the actual product was more angular. The Huckfeldt leak in May 2008 was 100% correct, but MB changed it up a bit by 2010.
Looking at the timing, Wagener was probably not allowed much leeway with aspects of the GL. He did barely take over in June 2008. I had said in the past on here, that the W212 was frozen in 2006 and X204 sometime in 2005. Pfeiffer's deep influence didn't really surface until about 2004, as no redesigns were launched in 2003. The W211 E-Class I've learned, was moreover a Sacco-influenced design and the R230 SL is also his through and through (June 16, 1997 sign-off).
When someone takes the lead post and has a different design idiom, their vision might take awhile to have proper effect. Peter Schreyer took over Hyundai design nearly 2.5 years ago and none of the recent redesigns were influenced by him. His supposed "Bauhaus" C5 A6 launched in 1997, was actually designed under Harmut Warkuss in 1991-1992 and frozen in June 1994. Schreyer took over Audi Design afterward in October 1994, yet is wrongly credited for that car. The TT was his first Audi and B6 his first saloon.
In many ways that is true, but Daimler also forced Chrysler to spend 40% less on their interiors, hence the terrible plastics that were used on their LX platform offerings from 2004-2010 and many other Chrysler vehicles. It was a very complex situation, but I am too tired to remember both sides fully. The end result has been like a bitter divorce, where "friends" of each have differing viewpoints.
Bear in mind that the E84 X1, while designed under Adrian van Hooydonk as BMW Brand Design director in 2006, Bangle was also BMW Group Design director back then. I cannot honestly vouch for how things changed, when van Hooydonk assumed his role in February 2004 and Bangle became formally in charge of all BMW Group Design.
I presume he had a say in how things were done, until departing 5 years later. Bangle's previous role (AvH's current role) as "Group design chief" is a unique one, as Ian and Gerry primarily do their work independent of each other at JLR. The F45/46 and F56 are very much of course recent stuff, so no argument there in being more subjective.
Well, he was definitely was there for the F10 and plenty more. When Bangle departed by February 3, 2009, BMW had already designed F07, E84, F10, F25, F12/13, and F20. The design for the F10 was chosen in December 2006 and frozen in mid-2007. Him leaving only had some bearing on future models (post-2012), as even the F30 was being designed back in 2008.
Lol! In some ways, that isn't too far off (no offense anyone). I always threw a fit whenever the latest thread post under the "Mercedes-Benz" section was "Mercedes-Benz A-Class (W176)", while I'm instead looking for W222/W205/C217/W213 spy shots and had to click further.
If he did, they were added very late in his tenure. I honestly would attribute those circular vents to the interior designer's visions, as plenty of Pfeiffer-directed designs have those. They just weren't on the level of the current style, that borrows more from English designs.
Quite unfair to pick on the X100 XK (and Jaguar in general), as that is very subjective and not really fact. I disagree about 1990s interiors, as you might as well include BMW interiors from the '80s as well. The E38, E39, and E46 were very good quality evolutions of their predecessors. MB took an unfortunate step-down in quality with obvious cost-cuts, while BMW worked their hardest to maintain profitability and improve on the E32, E34, and E36. Audi's only went up as well.
Some of it is because the F30 has been out for the 3.5 years and the G11 is just arriving, while the W205 C-Class was launched less than a year after the W222 S-Class. People have had plenty of time to get used to the 3er's design, while the S and C were nearly parallel, with the former preceding it. Audi was attacked for this greatly with the B8 A4 and D4 A8, which will not be an issue again with the D5 and B9.
My mother before even getting an invitation, was puzzled at the leaked winter shots and wondered why the G11 was not "very different" and "took after a smaller car". She is content now with it (due to features and etc), but still had to be convinced initially. She lives day-in-day-out with an F02 and has done-so for 5-6 years, so for her to feel that way begs the question.
Not quite, as the G11 design process began in 2010. The design was frozen about 3 years ago and design selection months before that. BMW most certainly was not starting the G11 design process as the F30 came out (Oct. 2011 prod, launch Feb. 2012), but were actually finishing up back then. It was essentially done by around June-July 2012.
The F15 design was reached in late 2010, if not Oct-November 2010 specifically, and by then the F30 was deep into testing. Much of the F30 was designed in 2008-2009, with proposal selection on March 2, 2009 and rapid design freeze in the following months.
The W222 is actually evolutionary (not revolutionary) in design, but differentiated enough from the angular W221 facelift through more organic shapes. The F01 was never particularly angular nor too organic, so the differences are not as obvious with the G11. I never really liked the W221 overall for that reason and preferred the F02. That's not to say it wasn't a wonderful car, as the level of quality improvement in the post-facelift W221 was excellent, while the original was a necessary stepping stone over the W220.
As for revolution, I think it will be the next 7er that will take that role. The E23, E32, and E38 were so similar, they're a family. The E65, F01, and G11 are a family of 21st 7ers. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense.
Yes, pretty much the case here, even if the S-Class was out only less than a year before the W205 C. It is better in my opinion, for the flagship or halo model to lead the brand all the way. I am pleased that at Jaguar we have corrected this issue with next model, as the XJ just kept coming "last" since the 1990s (against XK, S-Type/XF, X-Type). Audi will do so as well with the D5, unlike the D4.
The 3-Series has always been a bridge between old BMW design and new BMW design. It helps keep the 3er fresh, while not taking away the shine from the flagship. Some people don't see it this way and automatically assume the 7 is an enlarged 3-Series. Only in the case of the E65, that this did not happen. There's nothing wrong with them being the same, but merely about hierarchy in the line-up. Top-down certainly does matter to a degree and Mercedes-Benz usually gets this right.
The difference is, the F30 has been in public long enough to make a lasting impression. The G11 is new and anyone who notices that, will make the correlation that "7er copied the cheaper car", similarly the way my mother did initially. Jaguar had this terrible problem 10-12 years ago, with the X-Type (2000-01) and X350 XJ (2002-03). Will not be happening, even if the XE has certain "weaknesses". The X760 (XE) successor will take after the redesigned XJ (X360), even though development has yet to begin on the former.
As you correctly said above, dimensions and perspective matter. Anyone that spots a 750Li and thinks it's a 318i, is clearly challenged. A C450 AMG Sport is far from being an S500.
What are you talking about? I'm not sure how these are particularly "cheaper". Maybe that applies to Mercedes-Benz more post-1995, but everybody else did very well in execution. Audi had its ascendancy for this very reason.
Audi V8 (1988-1991 version)-Cannot find any press shots
Audi V8 (1991-1994 version)-Dual Airbags, newer 4.2L
Audi A8 (D2)-A VAST improvement
You can't really say that is 100% correct (E65 copy), as the S-Class looks very oddly similar to a Japanese solution introduced in 1998. The same year BMW was designing i-Drive's layout and the E65 interior. Despite that, surely Mercedes-Benz were later on more focused on the E65, their closest competitor, rather than Nissan. How do you know the W221 was not frozen by the time the E65 was launched? It was very far along by December 2002.
Again, that is variable. Only the iDrive controller vs COMAND knob can be of question, as everything might have not come from BMW. BMW's screen placement solution may or may not been influenced by a Nissan interior from 1998 (designed in 1995).
I cannot properly speak for BMW, but the design of i-Drive interface in 1998 was an interesting story, but might've had prior influences of its own. It is Japanese automakers that came up with the idea for a higher screen placement, but BMW has full credit for the idea of a centre console-mounted control knob for the infotainment system on the E65.
Toyota was the first automaker to implement an infotainment screen at eye-level for better view, in January 1998 on the 100-Series Land Cruiser. Much of the design development for that was done between 1991 and mid-1994. Again, Nissan takes the credit in terms of screen set-up, not overall interface.
The Nissan interface handled audio, climate, communication, parking assist camera, TV, and GPS functions. That iDrive interface was a pioneering effort for BMW that influenced the marketplace, but one can see who is closer to the Japanese design and it isn't BMW.
The '90s Japanese interfaces are definitely inferior to iDrive, as the Toyota system was solely touchscreen and not fully housed with the instrument clustre. The Nissan controller knob was too small and too far away to operate. However, all somewhat give an idea of independent progression towards better ergonomics. Audi's MMI took a different approach, being mostly developed parallel to iDrive from 1997 to 2000.
Looking down at touch screens below the steering wheel was no longer favourable for driving conditions, such as the case in the E38, LS400, A8 (D2), W220.
As I said to klier, no it was not. The E65 only pioneered the infotainment system and use of a centre console-mounted controller knob, but the massive screen housing was a template already developed by Japanese automakers in the mid-1990s. The W221 and W222 COMAND screen placement resembles the Nissan example, more so than BMW's E65 i-Drive monitor placement. Not many cars have exactly copied the BMW set-up per se, if BMW was not first.
Ironically, the same individual supposedly designed both the W222 (2009) and W205 (2010). As we've seen, the W205 still took quite some work.
The S Coupe concept looked so sexy (oh god yes it did!) with that fully upright shark nose, as that is the only element missing on the C217. Clearly the production C217 was designed years before it, so it was too last minute. Hopefully they are implementing it for the C217 facelift in 2018.
Of course, the ultimate and original shark nose is this.
That is specifically your subjective taste, which is quite good (based on those beautiful examples), but other's ideas of ultra luxury are not necessarily inferior.
The Germanic interpretation isn't the end-all, be-all. Everything is very subjective, as some people feel German interiors are "cold" and "clinical", compared to "warmer and more inviting" English interiors. The W222, W205, and C217 have eliminated this to a degree. BMW has also done very well with the G11, by adding certain "touches" to it for once, especially in Individual trim. In fact many BMW interiors are improving significantly via better material selection and accenting.
Also, the idea that the Japanese somehow use "plastic" or "shiny" wood is quite an unfair, if not heavily biased opinion. One has seen many odd interpretations from German offerings alike.
No, you're actually not. My father purchased one in late 2005 and still owns it till this day. It resides with my sister in Georgia now. Wonderful car, but it's unfortunately the "best" XJ interior of this generation (X350) and that apparently isn't saying much. The '09 SV8 Portfolio (X359) that joined it temporarily, his last Jaguar purchase, is nothing special. Reaching 10 years old, it is very reliable and the best example of that generation all-around.
great stuff.
sanpt7777
Headlight Hero
Don't worry. I like it too hahaΙ believe that I am the only fan of this interior in the whole GCF.
sanpt7777
Headlight Hero
This is very hard for me, as I like to be as objective as possible. I was the grandson of a BMW man (importer) and still the son of a BMW gal (and Jaguar guy), but greatly in love with the W222. I have never personally had an S-Class in my immediately family growing up nor personally owned anything in this class for myself. I've grown up with the 7-Series since the E38 and my maternal grandfather owned an E32 as his last BMW.
By extended family and friends, I've come into contact with the various generations of S-Class here and there, but never at home. My father does not like Mercedes-Benz (except Geländewagen) the way the rest of his family does and prefers British makes (especially Jaguar) above everything, with the exception of Audi.
I love both brands for their own respective qualities, but will try to be honest. The amount of technology and refinement packed into the G11 certainly takes the 7er forward, but will this design last 7 more years is the question?
My only gripes with the G11 is the shaping of the headlights (they look swollen) and the dash design similarity to the F30. Even the E38 and F01 dash designs did not closely resemble that of the E36 and E90, the way the E32 and G11 have with the E30 and F30 respectively. The way the make up for this, is in the attention to detail, and superior fit & finish for their respective eras.
I talked with my mother about this and we both believe that some aspects of the S-Class are too overdone, while BMW has also underdone the G11 in some ways. Does not really matter anyway, as she will never buy an S-Class saloon over a 7er.
I had much more to say on this specific topic, but cannot really remember anymore. I am usually indecisive, that I'd honestly take both if I was in her position! You can't go wrong with either. As some of you said below, it is all about subjective taste.
That's how my father has always looked at things and has never really liked what Mercedes-Benz has to offer, except for the Geländewagen. He's strictly been about British autos and Audi, except when practicality and versatility is a factor. However, he has never liked the current XJ, but does like its replacement (a reason I will not want/need one). Again, I have no favourites of course. I am not too fond of Maserati, but they are still decent.
Well, that isn't quite fair to say, but I do agree somewhat. Some people are too badge-biased to the point, that Jaguar does not even get a chance and automatically render it inferior. This is "German Car Forum" not "British Car Forum, so it's understandably expected.
We do not exactly have the most resources to work with and brand cache like BMW and Mercedes-Benz do, so we've done what we can on gambles. Outside of BMW Individual, there have been some areas where BMW doesn't surpass Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz has only fully flourished as of late.
I can see why I post less here, as I am not an argumentative person, and quite tired of the endless digs thrown at Jaguar. GCF is still very much more objective, compared to many other sites, that would give me a migraine.
Oh really? We'll see about that then, as you're very unaware how we're in the middle of development on a very large project at the moment and the current XJ (X351) is not eternal nor fully representative of our best work under less limitations.
It is very helpful seeing what the W222 and G11 have to offer, but we've already made our own plans as well with substantial investment. If we are fully incapable, then I might as well as join the unemployment queue.
Robert Lešnik came to Mercedes-Benz in January 2009 and Karim Habib in March 2009, both towards the end of the W222 design process. Habib was in Advanced Design (influenced F800), with Lešnik somehow inserting himself into design of the W222. For the life of me, I cannot understand why both Lešnik and Mark Fetherston are continually given credit nearly every new MB's exterior design. Are they that good?
Il-hun Yoon was responsible for the W222 exterior, yet has been shoved into the background for mysterious reasons and late comer Lešnik getting the sole credit, when Yoon was still working on 1:1 W222 clay models in 2009 and did much of the sketches priorly. What did Lešnik do that was so spectacular and differentiating from Yoon's suggestions, that gave him such credit so last minute?
Yoon Sketch
Lesnik Post-Design Freeze Sketch
It's not so much Daimler/Chrysler era, but simply Peter Pfeiffer. When he got overall control in 1999, plus mixing the recent merger, things became a blocky mess. The W222 design was one of the first fully approved under Wagener 6 years ago and one he was allowed several months to oversee, compared to the CLS (C218).
Considering that Wagener designed the W221 himself in 2001, it is no wonder the transition from W221 to W222 went so well. Habib was promoted too late to preside over the G11 design process. The F800 was developed in 2009 for Geneve 2010 and looks to showcase Sensual Purity more.
One cannot solely blame Chrysler for Daimler's prior failures, they were both bad for each other. I have heard both sides of the story and neither is innocent. I do agree that Chrysler caused them to lose focus, as it was an unnecessary headache to additionally manage. Both companies were headed down the same path by 1993, thanks to Robert Eaton of Chrysler destroying Iacocca's visions and McKinsey's & Company's cost-cutting influence on Daimler-Benz.
The C218, W166, and X166 are of the "Aqua Dynamic" theme in my own opinion. The C218 and W166 were both frozen around the same time in 2008, while the GL followed after in 2009. Much of the design for the C218 was laid out in 2007 and probably the W166 as well.
The W222 was finished in 2009 and W205 in late 2010. The odd thing about the CLS is, that it underwent changes between design patent filings in June 2008 and the actual product was more angular. The Huckfeldt leak in May 2008 was 100% correct, but MB changed it up a bit by 2010.
Looking at the timing, Wagener was probably not allowed much leeway with aspects of the GL. He did barely take over in June 2008. I had said in the past on here, that the W212 was frozen in 2006 and X204 sometime in 2005. Pfeiffer's deep influence didn't really surface until about 2004, as no redesigns were launched in 2003. The W211 E-Class I've learned, was moreover a Sacco-influenced design and the R230 SL is also his through and through (June 16, 1997 sign-off).
When someone takes the lead post and has a different design idiom, their vision might take awhile to have proper effect. Peter Schreyer took over Hyundai design nearly 2.5 years ago and none of the recent redesigns were influenced by him. His supposed "Bauhaus" C5 A6 launched in 1997, was actually designed under Harmut Warkuss in 1991-1992 and frozen in June 1994. Schreyer took over Audi Design afterward in October 1994, yet is wrongly credited for that car. The TT was his first Audi and B6 his first saloon.
In many ways that is true, but Daimler also forced Chrysler to spend 40% less on their interiors, hence the terrible plastics that were used on their LX platform offerings from 2004-2010 and many other Chrysler vehicles. It was a very complex situation, but I am too tired to remember both sides fully. The end result has been like a bitter divorce, where "friends" of each have differing viewpoints.
Bear in mind that the E84 X1, while designed under Adrian van Hooydonk as BMW Brand Design director in 2006, Bangle was also BMW Group Design director back then. I cannot honestly vouch for how things changed, when van Hooydonk assumed his role in February 2004 and Bangle became formally in charge of all BMW Group Design.
I presume he had a say in how things were done, until departing 5 years later. Bangle's previous role (AvH's current role) as "Group design chief" is a unique one, as Ian and Gerry primarily do their work independent of each other at JLR. The F45/46 and F56 are very much of course recent stuff, so no argument there in being more subjective.
Well, he was definitely was there for the F10 and plenty more. When Bangle departed by February 3, 2009, BMW had already designed F07, E84, F10, F25, F12/13, and F20. The design for the F10 was chosen in December 2006 and frozen in mid-2007. Him leaving only had some bearing on future models (post-2012), as even the F30 was being designed back in 2008.
Lol! In some ways, that isn't too far off (no offense anyone). I always threw a fit whenever the latest thread post under the "Mercedes-Benz" section was "Mercedes-Benz A-Class (W176)", while I'm instead looking for W222/W205/C217/W213 spy shots and had to click further.
If he did, they were added very late in his tenure. I honestly would attribute those circular vents to the interior designer's visions, as plenty of Pfeiffer-directed designs have those. They just weren't on the level of the current style, that borrows more from English designs.
Quite unfair to pick on the X100 XK (and Jaguar in general), as that is very subjective and not really fact. I disagree about 1990s interiors, as you might as well include BMW interiors from the '80s as well. The E38, E39, and E46 were very good quality evolutions of their predecessors. MB took an unfortunate step-down in quality with obvious cost-cuts, while BMW worked their hardest to maintain profitability and improve on the E32, E34, and E36. Audi's only went up as well.
Some of it is because the F30 has been out for the 3.5 years and the G11 is just arriving, while the W205 C-Class was launched less than a year after the W222 S-Class. People have had plenty of time to get used to the 3er's design, while the S and C were nearly parallel, with the former preceding it. Audi was attacked for this greatly with the B8 A4 and D4 A8, which will not be an issue again with the D5 and B9.
My mother before even getting an invitation, was puzzled at the leaked winter shots and wondered why the G11 was not "very different" and "took after a smaller car". She is content now with it (due to features and etc), but still had to be convinced initially. She lives day-in-day-out with an F02 and has done-so for 5-6 years, so for her to feel that way begs the question.
Not quite, as the G11 design process began in 2010. The design was frozen about 3 years ago and design selection months before that. BMW most certainly was not starting the G11 design process as the F30 came out (Oct. 2011 prod, launch Feb. 2012), but were actually finishing up back then. It was essentially done by around June-July 2012.
The F15 design was reached in late 2010, if not Oct-November 2010 specifically, and by then the F30 was deep into testing. Much of the F30 was designed in 2008-2009, with proposal selection on March 2, 2009 and rapid design freeze in the following months.
The W222 is actually evolutionary (not revolutionary) in design, but differentiated enough from the angular W221 facelift through more organic shapes. The F01 was never particularly angular nor too organic, so the differences are not as obvious with the G11. I never really liked the W221 overall for that reason and preferred the F02. That's not to say it wasn't a wonderful car, as the level of quality improvement in the post-facelift W221 was excellent, while the original was a necessary stepping stone over the W220.
As for revolution, I think it will be the next 7er that will take that role. The E23, E32, and E38 were so similar, they're a family. The E65, F01, and G11 are a family of 21st 7ers. Not sure if what I'm saying makes sense.
Yes, pretty much the case here, even if the S-Class was out only less than a year before the W205 C. It is better in my opinion, for the flagship or halo model to lead the brand all the way. I am pleased that at Jaguar we have corrected this issue with next model, as the XJ just kept coming "last" since the 1990s (against XK, S-Type/XF, X-Type). Audi will do so as well with the D5, unlike the D4.
The 3-Series has always been a bridge between old BMW design and new BMW design. It helps keep the 3er fresh, while not taking away the shine from the flagship. Some people don't see it this way and automatically assume the 7 is an enlarged 3-Series. Only in the case of the E65, that this did not happen. There's nothing wrong with them being the same, but merely about hierarchy in the line-up. Top-down certainly does matter to a degree and Mercedes-Benz usually gets this right.
The difference is, the F30 has been in public long enough to make a lasting impression. The G11 is new and anyone who notices that, will make the correlation that "7er copied the cheaper car", similarly the way my mother did initially. Jaguar had this terrible problem 10-12 years ago, with the X-Type (2000-01) and X350 XJ (2002-03). Will not be happening, even if the XE has certain "weaknesses". The X760 (XE) successor will take after the redesigned XJ (X360), even though development has yet to begin on the former.
As you correctly said above, dimensions and perspective matter. Anyone that spots a 750Li and thinks it's a 318i, is clearly challenged. A C450 AMG Sport is far from being an S500.
What are you talking about? I'm not sure how these are particularly "cheaper". Maybe that applies to Mercedes-Benz more post-1995, but everybody else did very well in execution. Audi had its ascendancy for this very reason.
Audi V8 (1988-1991 version)-Cannot find any press shots
Audi V8 (1991-1994 version)-Dual Airbags, newer 4.2L
Audi A8 (D2)-A VAST improvement
You can't really say that is 100% correct (E65 copy), as the S-Class looks very oddly similar to a Japanese solution introduced in 1998. The same year BMW was designing i-Drive's layout and the E65 interior. Despite that, surely Mercedes-Benz were later on more focused on the E65, their closest competitor, rather than Nissan. How do you know the W221 was not frozen by the time the E65 was launched? It was very far along by December 2002.
Again, that is variable. Only the iDrive controller vs COMAND knob can be of question, as everything might have not come from BMW. BMW's screen placement solution may or may not been influenced by a Nissan interior from 1998 (designed in 1995).
I cannot properly speak for BMW, but the design of i-Drive interface in 1998 was an interesting story, but might've had prior influences of its own. It is Japanese automakers that came up with the idea for a higher screen placement, but BMW has full credit for the idea of a centre console-mounted control knob for the infotainment system on the E65.
Toyota was the first automaker to implement an infotainment screen at eye-level for better view, in January 1998 on the 100-Series Land Cruiser. Much of the design development for that was done between 1991 and mid-1994. Again, Nissan takes the credit in terms of screen set-up, not overall interface.
The Nissan interface handled audio, climate, communication, parking assist camera, TV, and GPS functions. That iDrive interface was a pioneering effort for BMW that influenced the marketplace, but one can see who is closer to the Japanese design and it isn't BMW.
The '90s Japanese interfaces are definitely inferior to iDrive, as the Toyota system was solely touchscreen and not fully housed with the instrument clustre. The Nissan controller knob was too small and too far away to operate. However, all somewhat give an idea of independent progression towards better ergonomics. Audi's MMI took a different approach, being mostly developed parallel to iDrive from 1997 to 2000.
Looking down at touch screens below the steering wheel was no longer favourable for driving conditions, such as the case in the E38, LS400, A8 (D2), W220.
As I said to klier, no it was not. The E65 only pioneered the infotainment system and use of a centre console-mounted controller knob, but the massive screen housing was a template already developed by Japanese automakers in the mid-1990s. The W221 and W222 COMAND screen placement resembles the Nissan example, more so than BMW's E65 i-Drive monitor placement. Not many cars have exactly copied the BMW set-up per se, if BMW was not first.
Ironically, the same individual supposedly designed both the W222 (2009) and W205 (2010). As we've seen, the W205 still took quite some work.
The S Coupe concept looked so sexy (oh god yes it did!) with that fully upright shark nose, as that is the only element missing on the C217. Clearly the production C217 was designed years before it, so it was too last minute. Hopefully they are implementing it for the C217 facelift in 2018.
Of course, the ultimate and original shark nose is this.
That is specifically your subjective taste, which is quite good (based on those beautiful examples), but other's ideas of ultra luxury are not necessarily inferior.
The Germanic interpretation isn't the end-all, be-all. Everything is very subjective, as some people feel German interiors are "cold" and "clinical", compared to "warmer and more inviting" English interiors. The W222, W205, and C217 have eliminated this to a degree. BMW has also done very well with the G11, by adding certain "touches" to it for once, especially in Individual trim. In fact many BMW interiors are improving significantly via better material selection and accenting.
Also, the idea that the Japanese somehow use "plastic" or "shiny" wood is quite an unfair, if not heavily biased opinion. One has seen many odd interpretations from German offerings alike.
No, you're actually not. My father purchased one in late 2005 and still owns it till this day. It resides with my sister in Georgia now. Wonderful car, but it's unfortunately the "best" XJ interior of this generation (X350) and that apparently isn't saying much. The '09 SV8 Portfolio (X359) that joined it temporarily, his last Jaguar purchase, is nothing special. Reaching 10 years old, it is very reliable and the best example of that generation all-around.
And I thought my posts were long
Hey, are you a car designer? Like, specifically?
The 3 Series certainly is a generational bridge, that's a perfect way to put it. By the way, those x308 Jaguar XJs are dead gorgeous, I can't imagine someone talking them down. And Jaguar has those yellow B&W speakers, which I love.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, it was a literally an article more than just a post though haha
EDIT: Agree. My Volvo is Swedish, tasteful, and European, yet it also has shiny plastic wood. But I like it.
People, don't mess with Japanese cars. Not on my watch.
SDNR
Kraftwagen König
MB and now BMW designer Hussein Al-Attar explained it thusly:
Ahh, our old friend Hussein! Such a nice guy.
I know he is still a visitor to this forum but he has not posted since 2013.
I wish he'd post some comments.......but maybe it's best for him (for professional reasons) to keep a low profile.
Carmaker1
Quattro Commander
MB and now BMW designer Hussein Al-Attar explained it thusly:
The design process at Mercedes is kind of different than the one at BMW in the sense that not (like in the case of BMW) only one designer is responsible for executing their original idea, but some designers start, others pick up and maybe someone else finishes.
The original design proposal that "started it all" if you will, is courtesy of Mr. Il-Hun Yoon, who has been referred to as the Asian gentleman in the video. Robert Lesnik either finished the design, meaning he was responsible for the best possible transformation from the 1/4 scale model to the full scale model, or he was in charge of finishing it, supervising Mr. Yoon.
The interior designer you can see in the video is Peter Balko.
http://www.germancarforum.com/threads/2014-mercedes-benz-s-class-w222.48988/page-23#post-639373
And in this vid advanced global lead Steffen Köhl talks about S design.
Oh, I think you told me this 2 years ago around the W222 launch, but I wasn't really paying attention to the overall message and also had not started work yet (didn't know as much). Thank you so much. I had been thinking that Yoon was screwed over, but I figure it makes more sense now and he really wasn't (at least I think so). Thank you for reiterating that Wolfgang. fünfkommasechs recently filmed an early Mercedes-Benz integrated navigation system, the Communication and Navigation System (CNS). It was offered on the Mercedes W140 S-Class in Japan ONLY, starting in 1993.
FINALLY! A video of CNS in operation! I almost included a photo of CNS from the W140 in my previous post about pre-iDrive examples, but I had already overdone the amount of photos in there.
There are Japanese examples of the W140 and C140 with this system, especially the 1996-1999 versions of the S500/600 and CL500/600. I think many of them came standard with CNS after the second W140 update and C140 facelift, being optional on S420 and lower.
There's definitely an underlying reason why most of this technology took longer to arrive outside of Japan, as clearly the solutions were there. BMW took the initiative to bring it to Europe by 1994, despite being such a conservative company.
Yes, that's probably one reason. Another one might be that the country is not that large, about the size of Germany, and the map data easier to handle.
The problem with those early Japanese navigation systems in the 1980s and early 1990s, was they didn't even cover all of Japan. Only Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, and other limited regions of Honshu were covered back then.
BMW's E38 VDO Dayton system in 1994, covered continental Europe. There were navigation systems for W124 taxicabs in Germany circa 1992, but were a separate unit and not as sophisticated. I only can guess MB had a better supplier solution in Japan, but it doesn't explain the 5-year wait elsewhere until COMAND in W220.
@Carmaker1's post has got to be one of the longest in the history of the forum haha, it's an entire thread in itself.
Will give it a try to respond later when I can properly read it and re-read the older conversations. Great post though, and in my brief glimpse I saw I might have been a bit harsh on Jaguar, but I probably wantd to irritate Kiwirob a bit there
I figured a little that it was because of KiwiRob, but sometimes you probably go a bit overboard. I am very aware of the many foibles Jaguar (via various parent companies) has made in reacting to the marketplace and competition. I have many of my own personal frustrations with that and fight for improvements every day, even as a novice.
My mother actually likes your great passion for BMW (seen some of your comments), as she looks at things similarly. It's BMW and nothing else for her, which is why the W222 will never be a contender for her. There are some comments she recently made about MB buyers, that I will not repeat on here, because of how derogatory they were and not reflective of my viewpoints.
I am unfortunately terrible at summarizing, so I go a bit overboard and turn a paragraph into a page. Gets on some folks' nerves unfortunately lol.
Yes, they absolutely are. This 1996 article describes a tad, the Japanese obsession with high-tech items. It partly explains why they have been catered to domestically in this manner and that the expense for these early systems, were prohibitive in non-Japanese markets.
The Japanese market buying tastes allowed for this since the 1980s, unlike Western Europe and North America. They have often been leaders in electronics, so it isn't surprising. BMW succeeded in pioneering this for both continental Europe and Asian markets by 1994 on the E38, when the W220 COMAND system was still in development.
CNS is the direct predecessor of COMAND, so it would've been nice if all world markets received this on the W140 in 1994-1998/99. The W126, E32, W140, and E38 were very high-tech offerings in full regalia, but you definitely had to make special requests (i.e. Individual).
That E38 interior photo I posted above, is dated March 1, 1994 in the LCD monitor. Likely some pre-launch press shots. Also not too long after CNS, which narrowly preceded the W140 facelift. By 1991-92, BMW surely had arrived at that solution with VDO-Dayton. I have to wonder when CNS was introduced in 1993, as the W140 facelift was presented in March 1994.
During W140 interior design development in 1985-86, this was already being planned (large in-dash monitor).
U.S.-Market BMW E39 528iA GPS Navigation - 1996
It wasn't until May 1996, that anyone offered such systems in the North America. The MY1997 E39 5-Series (and later MY1997 740i/L & 750iL from Fall 1996) was the first vehicle sold in the US, with an in-dash GPS navigation touchscreen. I was shocked when I saw Acura RL commercials (early-mid 1996) and my first GPS example in up close, in a MY1997 540i in December 1996 as a little boy.
Honda's mediocre solution for Acura's 3.5RL (Mk.III Honda Legend) available from May 1996 was limited to only the state of California, despite how Honda basically introduced the navigation system overall in 1981 (Accord) and in 1990 (Mk.II Legend). Over fighting for competitive pricing and U.S. GPS regulations, Japanese automakers, VAG, and MB were late to the game in the United States (as well as EU).
1996 Acura 3.5RL GPS Navigation (US)
The funny thing is, if it wasn't until German and US automakers forced their hand, Japanese automakers might have not offered certain features that they provide for JDM. Because of the E38 system, Lexus standardized an in-dash GPS Navigation LCD touchscreen (inferior to JDM) for all EU-market LS400s sold from September 1997. The system was inferior to that of the Japanese model (1997+), with a wider screen and more features.
Japan has fallen behind in the last decade in terms of innovation, but are quietly rectifying that. Everyone is doing their best work right now, but execution is what matters. Germany is currently at the forefront.
JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) 1981 Honda Navigation (Gyroscope-based, non-GPS)
1990 Mazda Cosmo (First GPS-based Navigation System)
1990 Honda Legend (JDM)
1991-1993 Lexus SC (JDM version) First Toyota product with GPS-based Nav and OEM reversing camera systems (on EMV screen) on a production vehicle in May 1991 (pioneered in 1987 for Toyota Crown), now being mandated in the United States by 2018. BMW also pioneered PDC (front and rear) in late 1991 on E32 as well for non-JDM markets, an improvement over Toyota's 1982 (rear only) and 1988 ultrasonic sensory solutions.
1992-1994 Lexus LS400 Facelift (JDM Toyota version) First voice-activated GPS navigation system in 1992 (displayed on Electro Multi-vision (EMV) screen).
1997-2000 JDM Toyota Celsior Facelift vs 1997-2000 Lexus LS400 (Lexus had inferior pre-facelift 1994-97 LCD EMV setup than Celsior '97+)
I am actually wrong with the 1998 Land Cruiser example. Toyota's earlier solutions for the 1981-1985 Soarer (Lexus SC predecessor) and 1987 Crown Royal were probably among the first to house vehicle information systems display on top of the dash or in direct view of the driver.
1981-1985 Toyota Soarer Coupe w/CRT EMV screen (left of digital speedometer)
1987 Toyota Crown (First non-gyroscope, CD-ROM based colour navigation system)
The unusual thing about Japanese automakers in the 1980s and 1990s, was how ahead of their time they were on the tech front (even to a degree in the 2000s). Some of it is just mind blowing. The interiors probably leave little to be desired by some folks, but then again all of that is still subjective of course.
As Busty said, not all automotive inventions are necessarily German, but much of them have very much been. I'll say that both Germany and Japan have been somewhat alike, in terms of being innovative. It is partly about what your suppliers can provide and successfully collaborate with you on, which is likely why Mercedes-Benz W140 CNS only existed in Japan.
I was not necessarily saying the E65 HMI was inspired by Japanese examples, as that wouldn't be fully accurate. I was playing Devil's Advocate a bit. I honestly have not sat down in any of those JDM examples. I was referring to placement of the LCD monitors in direct view, that addressed the commentary of some on here claiming BMW was first to do that. The BMW screen housing and vertical tower layout differed from that of the W221, which looks similar to the Nissan version that housed everything in one enclosure.
All except the 1998 Nissan examples, were strictly touchscreen. BMW's HMI in iDrive, went beyond that. The other systems were somewhat between COMAND and that of iDrive introduced 2001. I figure one would have to see the Nissan system in action, to deduce how far off it is from BMW. BMW did not access to this in 1998 surely, as iDrive still required significant lead time and studying Nissan likely wasn't of use to them.
Apparently Nissan (pre-Ghosn/Renault), tested that Nissan layout in North America, in early consumer market testing clinics for the (third generation) 2002 model year Infiniti Q45 (F50) flagship in 1997/98. For some reason, the results were not favourable.
Thus, a "softer" dashboard layout solution with a flush-mounted 7 inch LCD touchscreen housing won out instead for the F50 Cima/Q45 (last generation) and was signed off in 1998, just in time for early 2001 launch. Both the 2002 Q45 and G35 compact saloon were secretly unveiled to U.S. journalists at NYIAS press week in April 1999.
Example of F50 (2002 Infiniti Q45) Interior Proposal: 1997-98 (Not actual representative photo)
F50 Infiniti Q45 (2001-2004)
As for Jaguar developments, well thank you, I do appreciate that. We do have our own "family arguments" and actually have invested in more testing methods compared to several years ago. The amount of funds is just not on the same level as competitors, so it makes things much harder to execute.
And I thought my posts were long
Hey, are you a car designer? Like, specifically?
The 3 Series certainly is a generational bridge, that's a perfect way to put it. By the way, those x308 Jaguar XJs are dead gorgeous, I can't imagine someone talking them down. And Jaguar has those yellow B&W speakers, which I love.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, it was a literally an article more than just a post though haha
EDIT: Agree. My Volvo is Swedish, tasteful, and European, yet it also has shiny plastic wood. But I like it.
People, don't mess with Japanese cars. Not on my watch.
I am not an automotive designer (I'm reconsidered that though), as I studied mechanical engineering. I do love design with a passion and have studied the creation of automobiles since birth (and could read text). I am part of making sure what is feasible (and "safe") for production, cubing, and very instrumental in the other processes up to the "design freeze" for some Jaguar products. All I will give away, as "Carmaker1" is not much of an alias.
The X308 XJ was the first Jaguar my father owned and still has it till this day as a "collectible". A classy, yet athletic design ethos. The same reason why I am disappointed, my mother did not keep her E38 740iL and sold it in 2006. It's still my favourite XJ, considering I've learned how the limitations of Ford and the carryover XJ40 chassis didn't allow for feasible implementation, of a lot of revolutionary ideas (non-design) on the X300 (1994-97) and X308 (1997-02).
The X350 overcompensated for that too much and was too bulbous (only looked good in performance variants). I will not speak negatively on an incumbent Jaguar offering (i.e. current X351 XJ), but will instead look forward to the future.
Looking at German magazines of spy shots for the E38 in 1992, they used the E36 as a base, but rounded it off and lengthened it. Irony with those two BMWs, is that Boyke Boyer designed both of them (1987 E36 and E38 1990-91). The timing of the 3-Series and X5 has always made for them being generational bridges. Only those in charge at BMW, can explain why they favour this interesting template.
Oh yes, very talented guy. I understand how Hussein feels. It is risky enough in some respects, as one can get into some very unwelcoming trouble for opening their mouth too much about ongoing or non-publicised programmes. It is much easier for me to discuss other companies for that reason. Even upon conclusion of development, there are still limitations in place. Some information is strictly considered intellectual property, being subject to termination and prosecution for dispelling.
To tell you the truth, I am getting WAY too off topic and will have to end it here with JDM/E65 vs W221 COMAND commentary above, as I'm being extremely disrespectful to the main subject discussion of this thread (G11 vs W222). Sorry!
martinbo
Staff member
There's nothing disrespectful about your contributions to this discussion @Carmaker1 - I think your posts are extremely interesting and, no doubt, the interior design debate will rage on forever and a day when it comes to 7er vs. S-Klasse and who done what first.
sanpt7777
Headlight Hero
I find it very interesting how an old car interior looks modern with a big screen (like the W140). Yes, of you start picking up the details you see old gauges and buttons, but at first glance, it's the screen that has the most power and my brain automatically sees the interior as modern. I think some cars use this as a design coupon, and rely too much on the screen to make the interior look modern and stand out.
I guess she wouldn't like that much my comments about Mercedes-Benz superiority
Same here mate, same here. Only thing is I don't post interesting information haha
I prefer older Japanese cars for this reason. The new ones seem to only try to be cheap. Just now they are getting their shit back together.
I ask because I want to study either mechanical engineering or industrial design specialized in automotive design, but they seem so different and while I can see what makes one different from the other while studying, I'm more worried about how my work would be when I finish. I think car design will be more fun but I just can't be sure. I don't know what exactly a mechanical engineer does (I'm guessing there are lots of possible jobs) or what a designer does.
That's why I asked my question.
Regarding the E38, I always thought the E38 and E39 had the tail lamps brought from the E36. They lost the L shape and went with a simple square, which I like.
The E30/E34/E32 - E46/E39/E38 era of BMWs has to be the best. It was like BMWs best moment in my opinion. They made some if their most memorable car lineups and engines. And the M versions of those cars are simply the purest form of BMW. At least on paper, they are awesome. I haven't driven an M. But one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen was an E34 M5 at a dealership. E34s are rare where I live, and M5s of all generations are super rare, so it was quite a surprise to me. Black on black, M parallels. Simply beautiful.
I think you're still slightly on topic. But what you are saying is still relevant to the thread, since we are talking about design. I think I had part in starting an MB vs BMW fight here, but well, it's not like they need help to start such a fight in the GCF haha
I guess she wouldn't like that much my comments about Mercedes-Benz superiority
Same here mate, same here. Only thing is I don't post interesting information haha
I prefer older Japanese cars for this reason. The new ones seem to only try to be cheap. Just now they are getting their shit back together.
I ask because I want to study either mechanical engineering or industrial design specialized in automotive design, but they seem so different and while I can see what makes one different from the other while studying, I'm more worried about how my work would be when I finish. I think car design will be more fun but I just can't be sure. I don't know what exactly a mechanical engineer does (I'm guessing there are lots of possible jobs) or what a designer does.
That's why I asked my question.
Regarding the E38, I always thought the E38 and E39 had the tail lamps brought from the E36. They lost the L shape and went with a simple square, which I like.
The E30/E34/E32 - E46/E39/E38 era of BMWs has to be the best. It was like BMWs best moment in my opinion. They made some if their most memorable car lineups and engines. And the M versions of those cars are simply the purest form of BMW. At least on paper, they are awesome. I haven't driven an M. But one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen was an E34 M5 at a dealership. E34s are rare where I live, and M5s of all generations are super rare, so it was quite a surprise to me. Black on black, M parallels. Simply beautiful.
I think you're still slightly on topic. But what you are saying is still relevant to the thread, since we are talking about design. I think I had part in starting an MB vs BMW fight here, but well, it's not like they need help to start such a fight in the GCF haha
sanpt7777
Headlight Hero
Sorry for the off topic, but I think it's disrespectful to the German Car Forum Community to talk about cool cars I see and not post pictures.
I think this particular car has a Nürburgring pack or something
They are not the best, but it's better than nothing.
I made it clear how rare E34s are here. Well, while I was looking at this car, I turned around and a green/tan E34 passed by. It was a 525i.
Also, at a shop where i took my car once, they have a black 540i.
And near a rich neighborhood I spotted this other black 540i.
Love those wheels.
I can count six E34s. Those are all I've seen in my life, and 5 were black.
I'm looking for one. But it's always a V8, or an armored one The only exceptions were the M5, way out of my budget (did not even asked the price, as I can guesstimate it) and the other one was the green one which I guess was not for sale. But it was green and tan anyway.
My E34 must be black/black and I6. That's all I ask. Good thing is normal E34s (not armored or M5) are dirt cheap, so I can get one quickly after my Volvo is done.
It's my favorite BMW. I just hope I can find one when I have the money. It always is: I have the money but the cars don't show up or I don't have the money and there are cars available for sale
I think this particular car has a Nürburgring pack or something
They are not the best, but it's better than nothing.
I made it clear how rare E34s are here. Well, while I was looking at this car, I turned around and a green/tan E34 passed by. It was a 525i.
Also, at a shop where i took my car once, they have a black 540i.
And near a rich neighborhood I spotted this other black 540i.
Love those wheels.
I can count six E34s. Those are all I've seen in my life, and 5 were black.
I'm looking for one. But it's always a V8, or an armored one The only exceptions were the M5, way out of my budget (did not even asked the price, as I can guesstimate it) and the other one was the green one which I guess was not for sale. But it was green and tan anyway.
My E34 must be black/black and I6. That's all I ask. Good thing is normal E34s (not armored or M5) are dirt cheap, so I can get one quickly after my Volvo is done.
It's my favorite BMW. I just hope I can find one when I have the money. It always is: I have the money but the cars don't show up or I don't have the money and there are cars available for sale
klier
Premium
Beemer B773ER
Tire Trailblazer
sanpt7777
Headlight Hero
Human
You. The Road. Nothing else.
Well known fact to the GCF community that VAG, Daimler and BMW use the same supplier base, mostly German OEM's and collaboration in supply chain management is not ruled out.
Look carefully: Same Steering wheel supplier?
Mr. Mercedes
Premium
Well known fact to the GCF community that VAG, Daimler and BMW use the same supplier base, mostly German OEM's and collaboration in supply chain management is not ruled out.
Look carefully: Same Steering wheel supplier?
Yeah but BMW uses dodgey Japanese airbags that blow up.
Sorry couldn't help it. :-D
Beemer B773ER
Tire Trailblazer
Yeah but BMW uses dodgey Japanese airbags that blow up.
Sorry couldn't help it. :-D
More BANG for your buck!
sanpt7777
Headlight Hero
Also, am I the only one who thinks the interior of the BMW in tan looks a bit, uhm Swedish?
I'm liking it more now
So, I was watching this video. BMW certainly looks for a Scandinavian look
At least with the modern line
sanpt7777
Headlight Hero
Well, IIRC, it was a Japanese designer who was responsible for the design of the timeless E39. So this is not that new. That man is a winner
I'm really hoping my next car will look exactly like this, probably black inside (but tan looks great) and without stretched tyres
EDIT: Joji Nagashima is the name of the designer. He was responsable for the E36 and E90 too
slicknick
Driving Dynamics Pro
Now that I have had more than 2 months to think about it, I have come to notice that I really like both of the cars equally, so in my head, the Beemer and the Merc have drawn to a stalemate.....Is that bad?
IMO, the G11 is a perfect blend of dynamic drivetrain & modern luxury, whereas the W222 is the last word in classic luxury meeting sumptuousness (on this side of the Rolls, Bentleys,the May bach range and so on, of course)...Yup, money no object, I'd seriously buy one of each
IMO, the G11 is a perfect blend of dynamic drivetrain & modern luxury, whereas the W222 is the last word in classic luxury meeting sumptuousness (on this side of the Rolls, Bentleys,the May bach range and so on, of course)...Yup, money no object, I'd seriously buy one of each
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