BMW Design Discussion

[Mr. Mercedes]

Hi I just wanted to get the ball rolling on this topic here. I know its probably been discussed in bits and pieces here and there, but now we can have it out in one thread. he he.

It seems to me BMW design has been stagnating somewhat.
X5
X6
3 series coupe
are all GENERICALLY beautiful. Their designs are expected and are boring. Don't get me wrong, they're undoubtedly attractive, but wheres the "avantgardge" the "dynamism" that bangle raved on about. To me the epitome of bangles revolution was the 5 series (a seriously stunning vehicle), and it's just been watered down since then. You see a new BMW, you like it, you get bored of it. You no longer look over and over again at the intricate details, the obscure headlight arrangements and so on.

With our X5 (which i went to great pains to convince my father to buy instead of an ML) I look at it on a daily basis and see an attractive vehicle. But it no longer appeals to me as an object of desire as the previous 7, 5 and 3 do/did. Where has the magic gone?

While the above examples discussed are generically beautiful, I wouldn't even dare put the 1-series coupe in the same category. It of course is generically ugly and almost Korean in its appearance.

I think the new 7-er with the supposed incorporation of many CS design details is BMW's chance to dust itself off, redeem itself and resume its place at the design forefront. Unfortunately however from the spy pics things do not look promising.

What are your guys thoughts?

 

[Centurion]

As I see it BMW's new design language has finally matured. The first cars of the new generation like the 7er, 6er and 5er had quite random designs and it was as if BMW was just freestyling and playing around. A perfect example of BMW's maturity is the X6, it's bold but at the same very well crafted, gorgeous car. The same can be said for the E92 which is a home run too.

 

[LaArtist]

Yep i like the 3er coupe and the X6 ( saw one at munich airport..)
but the X5 is a coward design..
and somehow i feel the new 7er will be the same..

 

[Tarek]

^Couldn't agree more!

 

[coolraoul]

For me the only really interesting "Bangle" design is...the e65.
I find it ugly, don't get me wrong. But it's really interesting, you feel the novelty of the ideas, the courage of the designer.

The 5er is less interesting, the front is very weak and smallish while the rear has nothing particularly attractive. The 3er is almost Japanese.

Bangle had to water down its views, make too much compromizes, and it killed its design and made it more and more unattractive and unspectacular, less "love or hate".

The new X5 is an old X5 with smoothened, more modern lines, but extraordinarily similar in spirit to the old one. Would it be slightly smaller, you wouldn't see it's the new one.
The 6er could have looked good, but the sad and smallish face ruins everything.
The Z4 has good proportions but is completely overdesigned.

The e92 is the only really beautiful modern BMW IMO. That is a design. No need to explain it, to convince yourself that with time you'll get used to it, or to detect weird lines and say yourself it's complex so it's good. Just look at the thing, and that's all. More emotional, more appealing than every other BMW. It is the only one that manages to get the spirit of older BMW without forgetting it has changed of century.

The X6 is interesting. Looks a bit heavy from certain angles, but overall it's quite beautiful. Like it a lot.

The design is more refined now, it has evolved and is more mature (it was high time).

However, the design is already changing direction with the CS. Superb concept car BTW. The new 7er does not look that promising but it's only a partly camoed car we saw so far.

So I could say the design was interesting at the first try, was watered down after it and lost its appeal, but begins to look good only now. And is about to evolve once again. I honestly think with time, everybody will agree these Bangle times were a failure and allowed Audi to catch up. Just like the Chrysler thing was a failure, and allowed Audi to catch up. For me the success of Audi is mostly due to the relative weakness of the two major competitors at this time (the design of BMW, and the reliability/finition at MB).

Just look as everybody begins to moke and ruin the e65 now that a new 7er is about to come... I've never like the e65, but would not moke it. It was ugly, but very inspiring for the competitors. A first try that, for me, BMW never continued, only watered down. BMW lacked the courage to go on with that design, but had no new idea, as a result the following cars were only Americanized, not very pretty cars. It's only much later that emotion came back to BMW.

Just my two cents...

 

[PanterroR]

Looking a the new 7er i can't believe, i just can't believe... After X6, E92 and very promising looking new Z4, i can't believe they're doing this with 7er...

It's a flagship you idiots, flagship!!! Didn't E65 teach you some lessons? Wasn't it enough???

Yeah, now go and screw new 5er too...

--------------------

This is what i feel at the moment and the last PS must be very wrong and final product, especially the front, must be very nice for me to change my mind.

Like this, the automotive world will have a lot of bitch about... And i'll join them! BMW f'd up 7er...Again! E38 is with us again? Yeah, right!

You guys, Eni & Scott, thank you for everything, but you are telling us one thing and the pictures say totally different. If you tell me that the last PS is very close to real deal, in that case f 'em!



--------------------

Still, waiting for official pics and i really hope i won't have to quote this post of mine as my opinion about F01.

 

[fortuner]

i think off the current car the x6 and the 3er coupe are the stars and bold and dynamic yes thats what a bmw should be.....

the x5 i cant say its ugly bec its not it looks good but i feel more could have been done ..as the previous was my favorute suv the current one is not bad but i expected more...

the 3er same as nice looking not ugly yet for bmw main sporty or dynamic brand its too bland almost you can say the fisrt design off the toning down from bmw..the 6er i dont like at all front and back.

the current 7er and 5er i dont like i mean the pre facelifts but atleast they were different and the 5er is dynamic even more then a 3er .atleast you see they tried something different.

then came the cs concept stunning car really felt that the new 7 was going to be a toned down version ..but from current chops sadly the new 7er looks like yat another bland and boring design

these are just my opinions and i feel bmw designs have gone soft or not as daring as they were

 

[EnI]

The BMW design revolution started in 2001 with E65 7-series ... or even a bit earlier - in 1999 - with Z9 Gran Turismo Concept (design study).

Till 2001 BMW designs were described as "classic", "elegant & beautiful", "aggressive & sporty", yet were also heavily criticized as being "same sausage of different length", "unimaginary", "boring", "too predictable", "overused".

Therefore BMW BoD (board of directors) decided to go more "funky & fuzzy" - choosing "avant-garde" design language, fitting best BMW brand image as sporty, bold, powerful, expressive, and pioneering. Especially after BMW also decided to go very "tour-de-tech" with their cars.

Of course some "old forces" like Mr. Reitzle were opposing too radical designs, and when removed from BMW AG the design revolution finally started.

It was described by BMW design chief & guru Mr. Bangle (and his #1 protege Mr van Hooydonk) the new design language had a task to push design boundaries as further as possible - so in the next generations BMW would have a great platform to work on. It was a risky, but the went for it. Especially after detecting new trends in emerging Asian markets - where BMW had set their focus. It was also done to "revive the interest in the company & the brand", to "keep the brand alive, and exposed". And in this regard the succeeded completely.

Of course some design details were not perfectly executed - not so much a fault of designers, but more of tooling engineers. Mind that eg. E65 was conceived in very difficult times (Rover debacle) and therefore the budget was limited - causing also too short testing procedures, and finally experienced as electronic glitches (especially the iDrive).

It was planned from the beginning there would be 2 design poles / anchors: 7-series on one side - representing luxury & elegant design, Z4 & 1-series on the other side - representing sporty & youthful design. All the other models were somewhere in between - using elements from both poles.

Yet every model had an agenda - more low-volume models like Z4, 7er, 6er were more prone to experimenting & being more radically styled. 1er was a special case - with "crazy & funky" design since it was aimed at younger people. So was the 5er - which was a task to "break away from gray": set itself as the most progressive, sporty, and avant-garde car in executive class. While other mainstream models like 3er, X5, X3 were designed to be more conventional - to appeal to broader audience. Initially X6 was set to be a "crazy & funky" car as well, but they went for more conventional way - making a proper "X5 coupe" instead a more individual design.

Mind the times have changed in the last 10 years. The world is different than it was in the 90s - the years of peace & prosperity. 9/11, war on terrorism, global warming, changes in financial markets, high gas prices, rising of new empires (Russia, China) etc.
So have changed the trends in tastes - aesthetic preferences etc. So the trend researches have shown. Luxury buyers seem to shift to more "simple" designs. AVH described that as "Zen aesthetics" or "Reduced design".
Also the BMW marketing department wasn't really keen on experimenting too much - Mr. Ganal (now CFO, then CMO) said once there was a really thin line between controversial & unappealing design, and the BMW would do styling experimenting in the future. Which was also a plan - said by Bangle & AVH when E65 & E85 Z4 were introduced - also saying new design platform would be refined & smoothened in the next generation.

So ...

Today ... New trends, less experimenting, new platform is set, refining & working on styling can begin.

Yes, there will be still some "experiments" - but more as new type of vehicles (=new designs: eg. X1, F5, X4, 4dr GT etc), yet without total styling revolution.

So, this generation of most models will be refined & evolutionary. Also returning back to roots - bringing back the shark-like nose, more sporty stance, more driver-oriented dash, more prominent shoulder line, more horizontal stance.

But since BMW design mantra still is the "revolution every 2nd generation" we can expect some cars that look a bit too "generic & evolutionary" today to start new revolution. Starting design revolution with every generatin will be too costly (tooling!).

So, in this generation it won't be the 7-series who will begin the design revolution but some other model will get this role. Although F01 7er still brings some fresh elements to the styling - not being seen before.

So, the times of utterly controversial designs / styling are over at BMW. For now ... For a few years.

This generation is all about "revolutionary evolution" with a touch of "back to the roots" spice.


Does that mean the new designs from BMW are boring & unexciting? NO, definitely not. There will still be some very interesting details & features, creating some debates.

But do not expect such debates, and such controversy as experienced when E65 & E85 were introduced.

The point is were are already used to design elements such as "angel eyes", "neon tubes" "eyebrows", duck-tail boot lids (aka Bangle-butt), flame surfacing, shark fin antenna etc. And the new generation of BMW cars will continue to feature all these stuff - but a bit refined - so they will all look familiar. Lacking the "new" factor. Especially since also other carmakers are mimicking all these features, making original BMW stuff "less special".

So, the new designs will be more matured, more refined, more aggressive, more sporty. And the new stuff - missing on some current cars: much more elegant, more up-scale looking, instantly gorgeous. While still staying fresh, sharp, interesting, exciting & avant-garde.

What can I say more? The last 7+ years have been very bumpy. Now it's time to settle down a bit. Perhaps it's time Audi to show more boldness, or MB shock us with some crazy design.

 

[Mockenrue]

Perhaps it's time Audi to show more baldness

Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[LaArtist]

^lmao

 

[coolraoul]

There is one thing that bothers me, EnI.

What is the primilary aim of the design for a car? Making a statement with big words and big concepts? Using some cool names as "flame surfacing"?
Or just making a wonderful car that looks good without explanation? A car that has a lot of emotion and appeal?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Revolution every two gens, what does that mean? You have gen. 1 (horrible unrefined design experiment that everybody is happy to see disappear) and gen. 2 (watered down, more refined version of the gen. 1 lacking any sense of occasion and with a déjà-vu feeling to it)?

Is this how you see BMW's future?

How come it wasn't like that before? How come no other carmaker sees things like that?

I'm sorry, you don't need to shock everybody to introduce a new design. You can shcock everybody with a CONCEPT CAR announcing the future, but then you make a GOOD-LOOKING PRODUCTION VERSION of it.

For me, your "gen.1" is a concept car, and you should jump to "gen.2" for your production version.

A designer shouldn't release a half-finished design.

And you can renew your design without shocking the customers. This is what everybody does.

(of course, my statement here is a bit exaggerated to make you understand what I mean. See it as a "gen.1" statement, quite unrefined and excessive )

 

[EnI]

What I forgot to mention is this:

Beside the introducing new avant-garde styling, the main point of BMW design revolution was to individualize the car designs.

Till then all the BMW models were too look-alike, lacking individual personality / design.

The design revolution changed that - that was the design revolution. Making the specific models more individual (as much as possible), while maintaining family resemblance.

The statement was also revolutionary, the shift in corporate culture. Putting design on pedestal again. And, yes - there was also a styling revolution (introducing flame surfacing, eyebrows etc). But mind the essential MW design features were preserved (typical BMW proportions, Hofmeister's kink, quad round headlights, L-shaped tail lights etc). Only shark-like nose & driver-oriented dash were lost - but are now being reintroduced again.

Yes, execution of some designs was a bit clumsy in some cases. Even AVH admitted that once. But the flair was lost on the way to the production. Compromises have been made, and the result was a bit questionably sometimes. Which tells us the cooperation between designers & engineers was not working as it should have.

But BMW took a risk, and launched the new designs anyway. And it payed off.


*****

"Revolution after 2nd generation"

That means the tooling is set, and shifting from eg. flame surfacing to some other styling theme would be too costly. Therefore it is more economical to change tooling (& the styling theme) after second generation - so eg. after 12 years, not after 6.

Mind 7-series is a model the least integrated in the current design theme. The car lacks proper flame surfacing, proper design trademarks etc. FL was just an add-on job. Adding a bit more sculptured hood, more pointed / triangular headlights, L-shaped tail lights etc. But the rest of the design stayed the same.

F01 will introduced a proper L-shaped tail lights, proper pointed triangular headlights, proper flame surfacing, proper contemporary BMW interior design. And since E65 was revolutionary, F01 will work on the same platform - updating the styling to fit more into the family design, introducing some new design features, and bringing back some old & forgotten ones.

Eg. X5 E70 is evolutionary (kind a E53 in flame surfaced clothes) since it is 2nd generation only. Same can be said for upcoming E89 Z4, F13 6er, F10 5er, new 1er, new X3.

The only car that is already evolutionary in this generation is ... 3-series. Which make me believe the next generation will be more revolutionary again.

All the other models will be evolutionary.

 

[martinbo]

There's nothing that can really be said that would vindicate BMW, Bangle and van Hooydonk's stylistic direction and design language over these last 8 years. Opinion on this matter is so polarised that debate around this is inevitably circular and inconclusive. But, one has to appreciate BMW's achievement since the leap of faith taken in the early years of the new millenium.

BMW had to move its game on - at its own behest and at its own risk - in order to transform the way the consumer looked at car styling. It was a calculated gamble and it paid off because, whilst BMW styling was never all things to all men (read: universally appealing), it ushered in a new era of instantly identifiable (as being nothing other than) BMWs.

Like them or not, BMWs have a remarkably recognisable corporate persona in spite of some drastically differently styled models. The brand is practically bulletproof and this is thanks to a really ballsy move in terms of styling direction.

We're seeing a slow-down in this strategy; a consolidation and a palpable nurturing maturation of BMW's design direction. The core identity and image will remain I expect yet, pragmatically conceived as less controversial and less polarising. It's now time for BMW to reap the rewards of the styling risks taken, and, with this momentum and a much vaster creative palate than any other manufacturer, safeguard their reputation as the world's leading-edge of automotive design.