Vs Audi A7 vs. BMW 5-series vs. MB E-Class design discussion
- Thread starter K-A
- Start date
Crazy ain't it?
I wonder just how many Coupes are sold. I definitely see the Sedan's 90%+ of the time I see an "E".
I'm sure the C must outsell the E Sedan though, even if it is by a small margin. To note: The E has been the M-B volume leader in the U.S almost every month (or maybe every month) since the W212 debuted.
Just_Me: It's really interesting as to how different these markets are. Out here, it's almost impossible to dethrone the 3. However, with the 3's 7,xxx units sold in the U.S in April, the E is VERY surprisingly near it.
I'm happy that the E is such a hit out here, but damn, I kind of would like to see Sales drop off a bit, so my car can retain a smidge of "exclusivity factor". Lol.
Considering a BASE E-Class costs almost double of what the average American makes (and more than the total combined average household income) in a year, and considering our record unemployment, record debt, plummeting dollar, and disastrous Economy, you'd think we're swimming in money with a car like an E-Class being such a seller. That or MBUSA provides ridiculous Lease incentives to move the car, which is kind of upsetting, as I'm a big fan of people actually being able to afford Luxury goods, if they want them (we wouldn't be in such an economic mess if Creditors weren't such enablers, but such is the way the world turns).
I wonder just how many Coupes are sold. I definitely see the Sedan's 90%+ of the time I see an "E".
I'm sure the C must outsell the E Sedan though, even if it is by a small margin. To note: The E has been the M-B volume leader in the U.S almost every month (or maybe every month) since the W212 debuted.
Just_Me: It's really interesting as to how different these markets are. Out here, it's almost impossible to dethrone the 3. However, with the 3's 7,xxx units sold in the U.S in April, the E is VERY surprisingly near it.
I'm happy that the E is such a hit out here, but damn, I kind of would like to see Sales drop off a bit, so my car can retain a smidge of "exclusivity factor". Lol.
Considering a BASE E-Class costs almost double of what the average American makes (and more than the total combined average household income) in a year, and considering our record unemployment, record debt, plummeting dollar, and disastrous Economy, you'd think we're swimming in money with a car like an E-Class being such a seller. That or MBUSA provides ridiculous Lease incentives to move the car, which is kind of upsetting, as I'm a big fan of people actually being able to afford Luxury goods, if they want them (we wouldn't be in such an economic mess if Creditors weren't such enablers, but such is the way the world turns).
Just checked swedish sales for April.
BMW sold more 5-series then they sold 3-serie, C-class/ and E-class. Pretty amazing to outsell the 3-series
1. Volvo V70
.
.
9. 5-series
12. 3-series
15. C-class
22. E-class
I don't know about other countries but here (Ireland) there are no new 3 series as it is due a major price restructuring due to the new 5 series release.
A similar spec 520d is cheaper than a 320d.
base prices are 42,820 vs 39,270
not adding any extra's to the 5 series, just bringing the 3 series up to match it's spec you have to add the following.
Leather - 2,160
Bluetooth prep - 932
PDC F+R - 620
then some options are actually cheaper on the 5, like metallic is 60 euro cheaper ect...
SKY
Kraftwagen König
Of course, in USA Merc sells more. I guess it´s because in Europe we have some packages which are not available for the USA, as the Elegance, that make the car look stupic (E-Class case). In the USA, most of the Mercs are sold with the sport pack, which does wonders for them.
Note BMW has a few new nice options as the X3, that clearly own the competition (when talking about MB) in terms of styling.
Note BMW has a few new nice options as the X3, that clearly own the competition (when talking about MB) in terms of styling.
Mr. Mercedes
Premium
HighestOfHigh
Cornering Kingpin
BTW...Why is the A7 being discussed when the A6 is more of a direct competitor to the E and 5?
DexterMorgan
Tarmac Traveler
+1. Some of the comparisons people make here are just way off.
vedjo01
Cornering Connoisseur
I must agree..I saw one black A7 today and I must say I´m not impressed how it looks from behind..
A7 does have an initial pop, but I can see it getting less alluring to me over time, and the back is a huge deal breaker. Still, a nice overall car, albeit awkward.
The F10 is always elegant, but I've been very confirmed in my decision and opinion that the W212 is the ultimate Mid-Size Luxury Sedan. The visual presence of the F10 is very soft yet large, it also gets a bit clumsy, as it's so damn bulbous and bloated. I find the F10 looks MUCH better with some good options, and a good color combo. Design aside, there are lots of quality problems reported with the F10. Jerky transmission and take-off, which nobody can seem to get fixed, the classic problems with BMW D/I engines, fuel pumps, etc. Wind noise that owners are getting in the exact same area, that many report to not be able to get fixed, "ghost" steering that has a mind of its own (people say to avoid pre Sept 2010 builds), etc. The E has taken the quality recommendation this time, and is posting better initial results. I feel this is just another factor, along with design, that champions it to me.
BTW, I do give the designers credit in carving a nice, cohesive and lean look in some respects, but the cars heft and architecture tend to be fat and top heavy, and cars like that don't wear so well to me. In comparison, the W212 is ultra crisp, taut, and lean.
The F10 is always elegant, but I've been very confirmed in my decision and opinion that the W212 is the ultimate Mid-Size Luxury Sedan. The visual presence of the F10 is very soft yet large, it also gets a bit clumsy, as it's so damn bulbous and bloated. I find the F10 looks MUCH better with some good options, and a good color combo. Design aside, there are lots of quality problems reported with the F10. Jerky transmission and take-off, which nobody can seem to get fixed, the classic problems with BMW D/I engines, fuel pumps, etc. Wind noise that owners are getting in the exact same area, that many report to not be able to get fixed, "ghost" steering that has a mind of its own (people say to avoid pre Sept 2010 builds), etc. The E has taken the quality recommendation this time, and is posting better initial results. I feel this is just another factor, along with design, that champions it to me.
BTW, I do give the designers credit in carving a nice, cohesive and lean look in some respects, but the cars heft and architecture tend to be fat and top heavy, and cars like that don't wear so well to me. In comparison, the W212 is ultra crisp, taut, and lean.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
E-class have many issues as well. Just go to mbworld.org and there is a long list of issues with the new E-class. And not long ago there was also a E-class recalls.
Sunny got a point , you seem to look at flaws with the new 5-series to justify your E-class purchase. May sound harsh but thats the impression I get with your posts KA.
Sunny got a point , you seem to look at flaws with the new 5-series to justify your E-class purchase. May sound harsh but thats the impression I get with your posts KA.
I think you guys are getting too excited.
I don't even really remember where we left off on this (or any of the other E-Class Threads), so I usually just reply or comment on the last several posts, hence the continuity. Also, I comment on my most recent impressions of the F10, since I'm still getting used to my impression of it on the road.
The E has little issues like any car will, but it has nothing major, and there are no build dates to avoid. All in all, it has launched with MUCH less and large problems than the F10, and is probably the most reliable and top quality in its Class. Things like "Consumer Reports" and the like usually will reflect that as well, by Recommending the E-Class, though I don't put much care into those.
I do have a car that has me sweating as to whether I'll like it enough to make me unhappy with my purchase, and it's the CLS, although, I have some problems with that design, and if they translate to real life, it will keep me content with the E-Class.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
You get your facts from Internet forums and their owners? It doesn't mean it has to reflect to the world outside the Internet. But there are always issues with cars from the first one or two years but during the years realibility is getting better. So you can wait a little longer before you trade your E-class for a 5er 
Truth is, both 5-series and E-class got issues but it shouldnt decide if you're buying the car or not.
You do not need to worry about CLS. Not in my opinion.
Truth is, both 5-series and E-class got issues but it shouldnt decide if you're buying the car or not.
You do not need to worry about CLS. Not in my opinion.
And I'm very happy to hear you say that about the CLS (and so is my Bank account! ).
Of course, cars will have their problems, and the F10 is by no means an "avoid it" case, but it has had some more drastic and continuous problems than the W212. I've gotten this info from the best and only sources possible (Internet Owners Forums, and publications, etc.). F10 owners will usually say "Do not buy pre-September '10 builds", which says that BMW had quite a bit of "fixing" to do, right off the bat.
The jerky takeoff is an annoyance that BMW hasn't yet really taken care of, and the Fuel Pumps are still in question (and still posing problems), and there are quite a few issues reported by numerous owners, more problematic than any of the little things that you'll hear W212 owners complain about.
Anyway, to be fair, the F10 is more technologically advanced than the W212, and it uses newer drivetrains (for the most part at least) so there's more R&D to be done. M-B had to make the W212 a "statement", all the way from the overly-confident and strong speaking design, to the drivetrain carry-overs, etc. since they could not afford a fiasco like the W211 launch.
It reminds me of the 80's era actually, when M-B was a bit more simple, but focused on reliability, and BMW were more advanced in ways, but weren't as long-term dependable. However, with M-B's new and more complex drivetrains about to come out, some of this could possibly change.
).Of course, cars will have their problems, and the F10 is by no means an "avoid it" case, but it has had some more drastic and continuous problems than the W212. I've gotten this info from the best and only sources possible (Internet Owners Forums, and publications, etc.). F10 owners will usually say "Do not buy pre-September '10 builds", which says that BMW had quite a bit of "fixing" to do, right off the bat.
The jerky takeoff is an annoyance that BMW hasn't yet really taken care of, and the Fuel Pumps are still in question (and still posing problems), and there are quite a few issues reported by numerous owners, more problematic than any of the little things that you'll hear W212 owners complain about.
Anyway, to be fair, the F10 is more technologically advanced than the W212, and it uses newer drivetrains (for the most part at least) so there's more R&D to be done. M-B had to make the W212 a "statement", all the way from the overly-confident and strong speaking design, to the drivetrain carry-overs, etc. since they could not afford a fiasco like the W211 launch.
It reminds me of the 80's era actually, when M-B was a bit more simple, but focused on reliability, and BMW were more advanced in ways, but weren't as long-term dependable. However, with M-B's new and more complex drivetrains about to come out, some of this could possibly change.
bum-man
Driving Dynamics Pro
^ I would have to agree. I think these new generations of Mercs have some things that cannot be fully evaluated in a road test, much like the classic Mercs of the 70's and 80's. They didn't always win the tests but they didn't have to, people knew they were buying a car second to none. Just look around today and you will still see quite a few old Mercedes used as daily drivers (including me up to 2005). They have stood the test of time unlike many other car makers, and I think that is what is truly coming back with their new cars; particularly the W204 and W212. With this new generation of Mercedes the enthusiast can once again happily say they make safe reliable tanks, and that's what a Mercedes should always be. It is their philosophy. 
I agree ^^. One reason why I bring up the BMW quality/reliability, and why it "appears as though I'm convincing myself to not like the F10", is because I've never trusted BMW quality/dependability. I just don't think they've made their cars with the purpose of lasting-value like M-B has. And I'd still take a Schremmp-era Benz over a BMW if quality is my #1 priority, but the pre Schremmp, and now the post Schremmp cars are on different levels IMO. Things like sitting inside an old BMW with the faded and cracking steering wheels, trims falling apart, cracking seats, etc. have always kept me at bay. I've heard newer BMW's have problems with rubber weather-strippings getting deformed and ugly very quickly, which would never be an M-B problem.
BMW places more focus on technology and performance, but it comes at a cost. To some, that is what keeps it ahead of M-B, and to some, like me, that's part of what keeps M-B ahead of BMW.
Also, if you look at many of the (U.S, at least) quality reports from sources like Consumer Reports, etc., you'll see M-B far ahead of BMW.
BMW places more focus on technology and performance, but it comes at a cost. To some, that is what keeps it ahead of M-B, and to some, like me, that's part of what keeps M-B ahead of BMW.
Also, if you look at many of the (U.S, at least) quality reports from sources like Consumer Reports, etc., you'll see M-B far ahead of BMW.
klier
Premium
^^ nice fantasy story there man.
F10 quality is something W212 can only dream of. And the F10 is the best car in the segment, if you look at independent publications instead of your fanboy rambling.
World outside the Internet? What are you talking about? Let me Google that!
F10 quality is something W212 can only dream of. And the F10 is the best car in the segment, if you look at independent publications instead of your fanboy rambling.
World outside the Internet? What are you talking about? Let me Google that!
That made me LOL. That's a good one, even from you Klier.
Rationally, and in reality, the closest someone can say in defense of the F10 is that it's quality is almost on par with the W212. Facts are facts, and they favor in M-B's and the E-Classes way, very favorably.
Just for the record, I DO NOT dislike the F10 in the least, in fact, it's one of my favorite cars.
My repeating elements of the W212 that I like more isn't as much a slight to the F10, as it is a testament to how happy I am with my car. And I DO admit to sometimes wondering if the F10 would have been more my speed, although, less so these days, as seeing the two side by side enough confirms to me that the W212, with my combo at least, is something that will keep me interested more-so, I think. Interior wise, it's much more of a question to me, as I like many elements of the W212 more, but I also like lots of the F10 elements more.
If we were back in the W211 VS E60 days, I'd be hounding the E60 non-stop as I really think that car is a giant flaw. The F10, not so at all.
What I also do think is that some of the credit to the F10 comes from how "refreshingly un-Bangle" it is, or focused on how the car doesn't have many funky areas, rather than on the car itself, as IMO in person, after seeing many, and the hefty/bloaty yet passive and mundane presence it has, it just doesn't stack up to some of the enthusiasm.... to me.
Edit:
Oh, and to comment on another aspect. Although BMW fans can be the most notoriously obnoxious and arrogant, dismissive, and fan-boy like IMO, I find (for one), the community of F10 owners (on at least one BMW Forum) to be extremely enthusiastic, classy, intelligent, and cool. One issue with M-B Boards is that there are many owners who aren't exactly car-enthusiasts, and not as emotionally involved as I am, or some M-B fans are here, or as much as some BMW fans are. I appreciate that aspect of BMW's, and I feel that I have a certain passion and appreciation for my car that most "Lease then toss a Prestigious appliance that my neighbors are jealous of" U.S M-B owners don't have. Oh well.
My repeating elements of the W212 that I like more isn't as much a slight to the F10, as it is a testament to how happy I am with my car. And I DO admit to sometimes wondering if the F10 would have been more my speed, although, less so these days, as seeing the two side by side enough confirms to me that the W212, with my combo at least, is something that will keep me interested more-so, I think. Interior wise, it's much more of a question to me, as I like many elements of the W212 more, but I also like lots of the F10 elements more.
If we were back in the W211 VS E60 days, I'd be hounding the E60 non-stop as I really think that car is a giant flaw. The F10, not so at all.
What I also do think is that some of the credit to the F10 comes from how "refreshingly un-Bangle" it is, or focused on how the car doesn't have many funky areas, rather than on the car itself, as IMO in person, after seeing many, and the hefty/bloaty yet passive and mundane presence it has, it just doesn't stack up to some of the enthusiasm.... to me.
Edit:
Oh, and to comment on another aspect. Although BMW fans can be the most notoriously obnoxious and arrogant, dismissive, and fan-boy like IMO, I find (for one), the community of F10 owners (on at least one BMW Forum) to be extremely enthusiastic, classy, intelligent, and cool. One issue with M-B Boards is that there are many owners who aren't exactly car-enthusiasts, and not as emotionally involved as I am, or some M-B fans are here, or as much as some BMW fans are. I appreciate that aspect of BMW's, and I feel that I have a certain passion and appreciation for my car that most "Lease then toss a Prestigious appliance that my neighbors are jealous of" U.S M-B owners don't have. Oh well.
