Vs BMW 750i vs Audi A8L vs Jaguar XJL

[330CIZHP]

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...2011_jaguar_xjl_supercharged-comparison_tests


Great win for the Audi. As I expected from declining BMW brand, it got it's a** kicked.

Third place: BMW 750i

Highs: A vacuum chamber at 80 mph, the engine from Apollo’s chariot, supreme seating comfort.
Lows: Handling is merely fine, interior quality gets a B-minus, expensive and heavy.
The Verdict: A BMW should be the best driver in its class. This one isn’t.

Second place: Jaguar XJL

Highs: Steering the BMW should possess, interior looks to be tailored in Milan, lightest, fleetest, second-cheapest as tested.
Lows: The choppiest ride, nav is yesterday’s tech, rear seat pinched for headroom, slower and lumpier shifts.
The Verdict: In this mod limo, the best seat is behind the steering wheel.

First place: Audi A8L

Highs: As solid as Deutsche Bank, dines happily on corners, interior finery is the richest.
Lows: Looks like it was designed by Deutsche Bank, slightly cold and robotic, audible tire slap over bumps, silly shifter.
The Verdict: Effortlessly competent no matter where you sit.

 

[bmwownage]

"Mercedes-Benz ought to be here with its S-class, long the *preferred shipping container for dictators and divas alike. But the current model is counting down the months to retirement, and the new one isn’t ready for C/D comparison testing, so the company requested that we proceed without it. "

Surprised that the 7series is continually being hit for its relatively poor handling, afterall it's a BMW and if BMW was to focus on one thing, it should've been handling. Have to admit though, the 7series' interior is not distinct enough from other BMW models, being pretty much identical to the F10's, and i have sat in both's cockpits and have to say, it doesn't feel much different at all, probably why there is a bad impression of the 7's interior.. It's not a bad thing, but gosh focus on the handling especially if the interior can't be made to look too fancy.

Next bad thing to happen is the 5series not being the best handling/driver's car in its class (already looks like it's going to happen), and then the 3series...

 

[330CIZHP]

Yeah true. I had been highly critical (and got banned for it at another site) of the new "cookie-cutter" and "mass production of parts" approach BMW is taking on all cars it is building in order to cut production costs (especially on M cars). It is OK on a $20,000 - $30,000 car. But, not when you are pricing your cars so high up in the echelon.

I have been predicting the repercussions of this approach on such a highly priced brand for a while now. Seems like it is beginning to catch up. Audi A8 seemed to have trounced the Bimmer here. It would have interesting to see how Merc S would have faired.

"Mercedes-Benz ought to be here with its S-class, long the *preferred shipping container for dictators and divas alike. But the current model is counting down the months to retirement, and the new one isn’t ready for C/D comparison testing, so the company requested that we proceed without it. "

Surprised that the 7series is continually being hit for its relatively poor handling, afterall it's a BMW and if BMW was to focus on one thing, it should've been handling. Have to admit though, the 7series' interior is not distinct enough from other BMW models, being pretty much identical to the F10's, and i have sat in both's cockpits and have to say, it doesn't feel much different at all, probably why there is a bad impression of the 7's interior.. It's not a bad thing, but gosh focus on the handling especially if the interior can't be made to look too fancy.

Next bad thing to happen is the 5series not being the best handling/driver's car in its class (already looks like it's going to happen), and then the 3series...

 

[Zafiro]

750i may not be the best in class but its still a great luxury car. I don't think you would be unhappy if you owned a 750i. Its comfortable, looks good and goes well.
A8, the car isn't exactly beautiful and looks like a enlarged A6. Jaguar, don't know what to make of it

 

[Centurion]

Competition have caught up while BMW have derailed from their former slogan "ultimate driving machine" to the more ambiguous slogan "joy". The Jag and Audi are the least of the 7er's problems. The Panamera has already been accepted as the ultimate driving machine in the segment and the new boys, A8 and XJ have further relegated the 7er to a fast looking but average handling asphalt cruise liner. Excluding the Porsche, the 7er does have have a great design and looks less like a corporate fleet car than the rivals.

 

[EnI]

You guys talk discuss it like it's an engineering issue. Like BMW was outengineered by its rivals.

But you're forgetting that eg steering weight, shifting points, suspension stiffness, acceleration pedal responsiveness, engine responsiveness etc is now all controlled via software. So the same car can be SET (via software) how to perform, and what kind of driving sensation to deliver.

And in the end the final settings are approved by marketing guys (based on what buyers demand & want), or sometimes even the whole management board.

Examples: the Audi A5 was called (by marketing guys) to deliver more typical Audi understeer that engineers would want. Same case happen with eg. X6 & the new 7er xDrive: when invited to be driven in testing prototypes the journalists were able to experience different settings - from more aggressive ones to more vanilla ones. And in the end the production car was set vanilla, and not the other way around.

I wouldn't be even surprised that models for specific markets are set differently (eg. to meet specific emission standards, to be more up to local customer pool taste etc). Or even that the different variants (eg. SWB vs LWB, RWD vs AWD) are set differently.

Today, in the era of electronics & software, it's a bit risky to talk about hardware. Since today most hardware is very capable. But it depends on electronics & software how it performs & behave.

So, it's hard to discuss today's cars & thier respective settings ("characters") not knowing all the marketing background (eg. the preferences of targeted potential customers; or even the defined potential customer pool itself).

I'm sure carmakers & their marketing departments know what they are doing when it comes to product positioning, and the product characteristics themselves.

The answer to the core question "WHY?" is missing here. Why the car is set this way? Why it has such a character? And this "Whay?" is usually revealed only to a degree marketing guys want to reveal. Since the marketing strategies (especially the ones considering specific models) are not for general public's ears, and certainly not for rivals' ears.

Times when car character & performance were based on the hardware solely are over. Today at least 80% is about electronics & software. Since most of the hardware is generally available to everybody since it's usually not developed in-house, and exclusive.

Like in the digital photography & audio field also in the automotive industry the software / algorithms are now playing the crucial role. Same hardware - but the results & outcomes can be completely different - depending on software & algorithms.

 

[Mr Robert]

Sometimes, one could wish for the dorks at marketing to make better use of what the dorks at engineering produce...

 

[EnI]

To be honest, the "Ultimate driving machine" ... Does that really mean BMW has to have the best performance car in the segment? If that's the public perception, then the slogan is VERY dangerous for BMW.

BMW has never been the ultimate driving machine. There are brands with greater performance & sporty cache. Eg. Porsche is definitely one of them. And every segment Porsche enters, be sure their cars will top BMW performance & sporty driving wise. Same can be say about the Jaguar, Maserati, or even Alfa Romeo. At least in Europe these are the brands that promise better sporty spirit than BMW does. (Un)fortunately Jag & Alfa are not up to task - although Jaguar is picking up, and I'm sure Alfa will to when / if dealt properly.

Still there are all the new Japanese brands (Lexus, Acura, Infiniti) that target BMW sportiness more or less. But due to lack of heritage their brand cache is weak - and the only serious market when these brands can compete with BMW is US market. In Europe that's definitely not the case. Nor is elsewhere.

So, and there's Audi. Being reposition by VAG from being an upscale VW to being a serious alternative to BMW, and even to MB to some extent. But definitely more to BMW - since being perceived as dynamic & modern brand, although with strong heritage (mostly due quattro involvement in motorsports). And having a strong & supportive parent with huge economy of scales potential, Audi is able to develop & produce their cars @ very high profit margins. BMW can't do that. They just can not compete any more: they either use less expensive tech & materials, or get lower profits. Which I guess it's not good for a company on the long run - since profits are needed for further investments, and therefore for securing the company's future.

As said many times: Audi - due to its VAG parent - is a fierce rival. Especially to BMW, but I'm sure it will be to MB as well in the future. Especially if / when VAG buys Alfa Romeo, and positions it directly against BMW - making it a "poor man's Porsche". While Audi will be able to be positioned as luxury brand even more.

But still ... In this respective segment the buyers are not much into sporty performance sedans as are in comfy luxurious sedans. Especially in US, where eg. LS & S are very popular. Much more than the more performance oriented products from BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Porsche etc. And in this segment sportiness can hardly be a premium. Not for majority of buyers.

 

[Merc1]

Oh lord. I was waiting for this one to hit the web.


M

 

[Michael]

So, in a nutshell: BMW has lost it.

There seems to be no explanation boys. If marketing is dictating what BMW should do, and these reviews are coming in and being pretty harsh on beemers, it seems to show that marketing has it all wrong. Did the marketing department forget that potential customers read magazines?

 

[Deleted member 25]

In your face BMW

 

[Kowalski]

The new A8 has surprised me. Well done Audi.

 

[chonkoa]

You guys talk discuss it like it's an engineering issue. Like BMW was outengineered by its rivals.

I am afraid that is what the results are revealing my friend and it is truly disappointing.

But you're forgetting that eg steering weight, shifting points, suspension stiffness, acceleration pedal responsiveness, engine responsiveness etc is now all controlled via software. So the same car can be SET (via software) how to perform, and what kind of driving sensation to deliver.

So you just admitted that BMW engineers miss the plot, by not optimising the parameters to give the BMW its core characteristics.
It is important to note that optimisation is also an engineering process.

 

[Centurion]

But still ... In this respective segment the buyers are not much into sporty performance sedans

Yes they are. Otherwise there wouldn't be a business case for the Panamera which is exactly that, a sport huge sedan. Not to mention Mercedes selling volumes of the S63 and S65 and sport packages for the lower range S-Class variants. There is no need for linguistic acrobatics trying to brush off "the ultimate driving machine"-slogan as something trivial. The writings are on the wall BMW has no halo sports car, is abandoning natural aspired engines for forced induction and slushboxes not to mention investing heavily in performance SUVs. Meanwhile in Inglostad, the four rings are glowing stronger and stronger.

 

[bmwownage]

It's true that things (the hardware as Eni put it) has came much closer between the brands, i mean even lower end Jap cars has reasonably good hardware, handles well too which shows that things are very competitive but is this an excuse for BMW to not pursue themsevles as "the ultimate driving machine"? Their move to "Joy", was it because they were not confident to retain being "the ultimate driving machine"?
I don't know why we should not expect BMW always being the best driver's car/handling car in its class, because that has been the case until very recently. Not going too far back, the E39, E46 absolutely kicked-ass in terms of driving dynamics, feel and capability. Yes things are competitive now but is there no room for BMW to do better than its rivals? It's still good to see that the M-cars are often the better of its rivals, but still all BMWs were supposed to be
excellent driver's cars... it was like in a BMW 3series, even if the C-class or A4 next to you had slightly more power, there is that ego that I will still be faster, just give me a corner and i'll beat you... and there was always that feeling that I can give those hardout Jap cars, like a Civic Type R or Evo etc. a run... now, an A4 is fast, a C-class is fast, that feeling has simply diminished.. Perhaps going soft is good for marketing and increase sales, if that's the case then it's time to admit that the golden ultimate driving machine era has gone.

With the 7series, even the E65 was not the best handler in its class... of course it was probably good enough for a car in this class but for BMW not making the best driver's car in the class (slash Porsche) its kind of embarassing. Same story here, they should balance between comfort and driving dynamics and come to the best combination, or find some way so that comfort is not sacrificed by driving dynamics. And seriously since when has BMW consistently make the heaviest car different segments?

 

[Michael]

You are going to have your haters you are going to have your supporters and you are going to have everything in between. Regardless of that, I think BMW needs to think things a little bit. I think they need to go back to basics. Going back to those basics, e.g., The Ultimate Driving Machine, is something that may make them great once again.

Are BMWs still being may with 50/50 weight distribution? If not, that is sad. They used to advertise that all the time and argue how great it was for their cars.

I think it is a terrible idea to have marketing in charge of direct engineers in how a product should come out. It is so true that the M Division of BMW stands for Marketing and not motorsport.

 

[EnI]

So, in a nutshell: BMW has lost it.
There seems to be no explanation boys. If marketing is dictating what BMW should do, and these reviews are coming in and being pretty harsh on beemers, it seems to show that marketing has it all wrong. Did the marketing department forget that potential customers read magazines?

Again: carmakers make cars for THE CUSTOMERS, and not for the enthusiastic automotive journalists, bloggers, etc.

Marketing dictates based on WHAT CUSTOMERS WANT. If YOU want something, that does not mean others want it to. It's obvious the majority of customers want exactly the delivered stuff. Therefore those cars sell. Turds don't.

Zes, people read magazines. But every sane customer goes out, and checks the car IRL, drives it, sits in it, etc, does some cross-checking, drives the rivals - and then decides on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Not based on some journalist's opinion & data.

Or do you real think people go & buy an Audi because they read in the magazines Audi is faster, and handles better? They usually go & try the cars - and they decide on their own.

So you just admitted that BMW engineers miss the plot, by not optimising the parameters to give the BMW its core characteristics.
It is important to note that optimisation is also an engineering process.

It's not an engineering contest. Sure engineers are enthusiasts, and their expectations are different then the ones of specific customers. Therefore there is marketing dictate - to develop & optimize the car FOR THE CUSTOMERS, not for enthusiasts - who are very much in minority! Those get special versions: M packs, is cars, M cars, M GTS, M CSL etc. But the core customer pool wants different stuff - not something enthusiasts want.

And there is a constant pressure on BMW from the customers to make the cars more comfortable, refined, luxurious. That's what customers want - and if they don't get it, they'll go to by a rival car.

Why do you think the BMWs are getting more and more comfy & luxurious with every new generation. Because CUSTOMERS WANT IT SO!!!

BMW sells way over a million vehicles per year. How many BMW owners are active members of BMW forums or even bloggers? A FRICTION! And most of them are not romantics & obsessed with the rivals & the "Mine winnie is bigger than yours" game. Grow up, guys.

Again: over a million vehicles sold per year. Do you really think there is so many car fanatics out there? Or some people want to buy a decent car they like & desire?

As said: for the special customers there are special models available.


@Cent

In this segment luxury is still #1 seller. Sporty sedans are #2, more an alternative. Not a mainstream.

 

[Zafiro]

Marketing dictates based on WHAT CUSTOMERS WANT - sounds more like an excuse. Should be - Marketing dictates what the customers want.

My family been driving different bimmers for 12 years and not once and I mean never ever have we been asked what we want. I would be very happy if BMW asked me questions about the upcoming 1-series.

 

[EnI]

OK. I give up. BMW is fallen behind. Audi is now THE BEST BRAND & PRODUCT. Period.

So, what now? Should everybody stop buying BMW & start buying AUDI instead?

Are now all of sudden all BMW owners losers because their brand is no longer the best?

Are the customers who still buy a BMW crazy because they buy "second best, and not the best"?

Did all the MB fans & customers shift to BMW when BMW replaced MB as best selling premium brand? Are now MB buyers & owners inferior because they buy #2 premium brand in the world?

A just don't get your mindsets, guys. What do you believe, think, expect? Tho automotive world is not as romantic as some of you might think it is. Nor is a game. It's just a business of making cars (products) for customers - satisfying their needs & expectations, and making profit out of it. It's that simple. Although not romantic at all. It's very rational & boring, and therefore all the hype has to be created artificially.

Everybody has a freedom of choice as a customer: if a BMW does not suit you anymore due various reasons, you can get plenty alternatives instead: MB, Audi, Jaguar, Maserati, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Cadillac, even Range Rover, Volvo or Alfa Romeo. Anything what fits you best.

All the outcry usually comes from brand fans or even fanatics, who feel defeated when their brand or car loses comparison tests or the overall #1 spot. Most of them being car journalists etc. C'mon ... Get a life!

 

[SKY]

EnI, you are being rude with comments like get a life. Please, this kind of things can really offend other people. You could be more critic with BMW, I´ve always told you the same. When something is wrong or done worse in BMW than in other brands, it doesn´t happen anything to just admit it and move on. But seem to have always an excuse to justify everything BMW does. And you end up annoyed with some other forumers.

You have started talking about hard and soft. Ok, let´s say that point is correct. What about the interior?. Why does BMW have to offer the same interior on the 7er than on the 5er?. X1 has different interior than the new 1er, and X3 seems to have different interior than the new 3er, which will surely get a different design (cheaper?) than the F10. If those cars differ in terms of interior design, why can´t BMW´s most expensive offer?. Audi and MB seem to get this right, while BMW doesn´t, even when they did it with the E65.

You talk about comfort being the most important selling point on this segment, then, why has BMW focused on "sporty" driving and not just make a comfy car like the E65?.

So notice the contradictions on your posts. Software is more important than hardware and comfort is the numer one value of this segment. Hence, why not program the car to drive as comfy as customers want?.

You seem to forgt something more important than comfort on this segment: What you get for what you pay. What you get when you buy a 7er is a car that offers you mostly the same than a 5er, that looks the same inside than a 5er, but costs much more. What you get when you but an A8 is the same tame look you have on the A4, but with a quallity almost unpaired on the segment, with a unique interior layout, and for less money than any other car on its segment. Not to mention Jaguar, that gives you a 100% different car than the XF. Even MB, the absolute king of the segment, offers you a unique interior, and some gizmos you won´t be able to get on the E-Class no matter what you want to pay.

That´s the key here, the exclusiveness. And the BMW is not the sportiest, nor the most comfortable, nor the most unique looking one, nor the most expensive, not even the best balanced between comfort and sport. So, what a BMW 7 Series can offer to the customer that other car of the segment doesn´t do in a better way?.