Vs Audi A7 vs. BMW 5-series vs. MB E-Class design discussion

[Merc1]

I don't know if its just because I want a new car, but all of these look good. The A7 looks huge next to the E-Class. The 5er is a simply elegant design. The A7 is near perfect until you get to that hatch, though it isn't bad looking (i.e. Panamera). All of these cars look good IMO, you can't go wrong with any of them. The E is just look better and better to me now.



M

 

[bmwownage]

All Audi's look good because they are all pretty much the same... the sportier models gets more angled lights and a flatter roofline etc. and it suddenly is a good looking car... can easily alter the emotion of the front by playing with the shape of the piece of metal inside the headlights. So i think the A7 is the surprise, they managed to make such an offensive looking rear, it truly is UGLY.

I think the F10 will be a long lasting design, although it doesn't really give the "hype" and the "wow" like the E60 did... things are so soft and smooth, and sometimes, i have to admit things look too smooth, but as the car is closer you start to appreciate its details and lines, and everything suddenly looks mighty good. in terms of "wow", even now, i think the E60's rear is more sharp and attention catching than the F10.. of course this doesn't mean the E60 looks better, it just looks more wow.

 

[conneem]

All Audi's look good because they are all pretty much the same... the sportier models gets more angled lights and a flatter roofline etc. and it suddenly is a good looking car... can easily alter the emotion of the front by playing with the shape of the piece of metal inside the headlights. So i think the A7 is the surprise, they managed to make such an offensive looking rear, it truly is UGLY.

That is their thing, using proportions rather than details or complicated flame surfacing to define a car.

I agree on the A7, the rear just looks awkward from all angles. I don't really like what Mercedes has done with the rear of the CLS either but I have yet to see one of them in real life yet to make a proper judgement.

 

[K-A]

I agree with the above few posts.

About the A7's rear. I showed my Girlfriend my pics of my car next to it, and from the rear she said "it looks dated, like something out of the 80's". Spot on IMO. This furthers my belief that if you try and do something crazy and fashion-statement-y, not only will you become dated whilst a timeless/classic theme will not, but you also enter a dangerous field where your design can look instantly dated, due to looking like an interpretation of the "future" from the past.

 

[Deleted member 1071]

http://youtu.be/lJKGgVcf6RE?hd=1

The rolling shots in an urban environment compliment the A7, methinks.
Strikes me as being a bit Jaguaresque...

 

[K-A]

Interesting. Still looks a bit long to me in the back, in those rolling shots, but nice nonetheless. I also see a lot of Bentley GT in it, namely the greenhouse.

And WHAT was that Truck in front of it? Was that a current or next gen ML? THAT thing looked mean!!

Edit: Yup, it's a current ML63 it looks like. Wow, one of the rare times I've actually drooled over that usually weak-appearing Truck.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

I have no doubts that the F10 will age well and gracefully. All but the blunt front end I think will look modern, and then classic, for many years to come (or forever).

Regarding the W212, the jury is still out on timelessness. On one hand, in theory, you're completely right, eye-arresting designs, with strong details usually don't age well. However, I think M-B's "plan" for this car was to make it look revolutionary to the brand, but fuse in many classic M-B character elements (it reminds me of an evolution of the W126 inside and outside, in terms of character and charisma very much, my assumption that M-B did that intentionally).

Right now it's at the stage where people are starting to "get" the design, and are falling for it as they see it show off its dynamics in different personal elements. Of course, there are also those who don't or never will "get" it, or don't think there's anything to get, therefore they'll never be on board.

Whether it becomes a design that was too brand-revolutionary, trendy, and superfluous for its time time (a'la E60, although E60 was a trendsetter, to be fair), rendering it to be hugely popular initially, then an eye-sore and dated-design later, or something that masterfully uses its dynamics when necessary (to impress), but remains mostly an understated and sophisticated design as they become commonplace, allowing it to age gracefully and timelessly, but keep an enthusiastic presence and look eternally (this is in fact the task that designers of the legendary Benz and Bimmer Sedans are faced with.... Walking a fine line, which calls for a perfect design), we will see.

The thing that the W212 has that IMO is working for it, even with such a fussy design, is *CONFIDENT, STRAIGHT, CRISP, LEAN* lines.

The CLS, as gorgeous as it probably is (it's been eating away at me, to be honest), is something far more funky to the eyes, as the lines have cross personalities, with a wedge persona, and a character line that is reverse-wedge, and doesn't start at a solid point. This I think is what may make that an eye-sore after being viewed very much (very arresting initially, but not as conservative as an E-Class, hurting the CLS's longevity factor).

Then you have the new A-Class, and upcoming W222, with will have NON-Straight lines, and very fussy details, which can be disasterous to timelessness. IMO if there is a Benz that will be timeless that is coming out in this gen, it will be the W212, and the W204, at least that's what I think (until I see the others in person).

Me, being someone with some stake in it at the moment, I'm gonna be on the cheerleading sidelines, and assume and think that the W212's design is enough of a masterpiece that it will cross the two elements: Eye-arresting, and gracefully and conservatively, timelessly aging. Funny thing is, last generation the roles were reversed.... And IMO right now, if you put an E60 next to a W211, or an E65 next to a W220, the Benz Sedans look timeless, and elegant, while the Bimmers look like "yesterdays news" eye-sores.

I think you're right KA. I don't think we've given MB designers the credit they deserve with the w212. Sure in low spec with tiny wheels and those grotesque double fogs it looks very average withe a high bum. But hey which premium car looks fantastic without the nice alloys and LED's these days? MB HAS to appeal to the 'older' conservative demographic who will make do with the base spec appearance. But a nice set of alloys and LED's and things take a dramatic turn for the better.

Yesterday I actully gave the E a good wash and after parking the car in the garage I turned back I actually found myself standing there for 5 minutes just admiring its lines. It's got an incredibly stately form in its proportions and uprightness, and then it has some esquisitely executed 'lines' that just add the right amount of dynamisn and muscle to waht is otherwise a conservately powerful form. The rear wheel arch which appeared so polarising at first is actally very subtly executed and the front end has such a huge presence, which is the area i find the 5-er incredibly lacking. When these cars are rolling down the road, the front is supposed to be arresting.

I think MB has drawn perfectly from its past in both the proportions and details. In the overall scheme of things, its the W211 and that generation of Benzes (W220, w203), that don't fit in with the companies overall design tradition. The W212 seems like a perfect successor to the E-class bloodline, if the w211 were removed, particularly in terms of proportion and stance. Just as the w204 looks like the perfect successor to the first generation C, whereby the w203 doesn't really fit in.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

I don't know if its just because I want a new car, but all of these look good. The A7 looks huge next to the E-Class. The 5er is a simply elegant design. The A7 is near perfect until you get to that hatch, though it isn't bad looking (i.e. Panamera). All of these cars look good IMO, you can't go wrong with any of them. The E is just look better and better to me now.



M

You'll see Marcus. As your eyes bore themselves with the 5-er, you're going to find the w212 more and more arresting as time goes on.

 

[K-A]

Agreed 100%, and word for word. "Incredibly Stately form" is perfectly put!

 

[Deleted member 1071]

The A7 looks huge next to the E-Class.



M

The A7 is actually considerably larger than the W212. Some 5 centimeters wider, lower by approximately the same measure and about 10 centimeters longer.
In comparison versus the Audi A6, BMW 5 series, Jaguar XF, etc.-the W212 is actually the most compact car save its' height (without the AMG sport package suspension, of course).

 

[Tumbo]

The A7 has probably the best looking front of all Audis... At the same time as it has the worse looking rear in the automobile history. Even the Fiat Multipla looked better. I cant stand that rear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 1071]

The front of the W212 actually does look very nice, IMHO. It simply seems to fall apart a bit (styling wise) from the middle of the rear door glass backwards.
Odd as a number of cars currently on the radar seem to have rumps that appear offensive to many observers. The A7 with its' hunchback (the mere 10 millimeters added to roof height just above the rear passenger area versus the original Sportback Concept being the culprit), the Jaguar XJ which looks great until the C-pillar is reached, the bizarre backside of the Panamera (well actually-it's really the back of the roof), etc.

At present, BMW seems to provide the most attractive butts...

 

[Merc1]

That rolling shot of the A7 looks really good, until you get the back of the damn thing! I don't know why VAG insists on giving all its 4-door coupes a damn hatchback. If they A8 looked like that up front and 3/4 side profile it would be a winner.


M

 

[Merc1]

I think you're right KA. I don't think we've given MB designers the credit they deserve with the w212. Sure in low spec with tiny wheels and those grotesque double fogs it looks very average withe a high bum. But hey which premium car looks fantastic without the nice alloys and LED's these days? MB HAS to appeal to the 'older' conservative demographic who will make do with the base spec appearance. But a nice set of alloys and LED's and things take a dramatic turn for the better.

Yesterday I actully gave the E a good wash and after parking the car in the garage I turned back I actually found myself standing there for 5 minutes just admiring its lines. It's got an incredibly stately form in its proportions and uprightness, and then it has some esquisitely executed 'lines' that just add the right amount of dynamisn and muscle to waht is otherwise a conservately powerful form. The rear wheel arch which appeared so polarising at first is actally very subtly executed and the front end has such a huge presence, which is the area i find the 5-er incredibly lacking. When these cars are rolling down the road, the front is supposed to be arresting.

I think MB has drawn perfectly from its past in both the proportions and details. In the overall scheme of things, its the W211 and that generation of Benzes (W220, w203), that don't fit in with the companies overall design tradition. The W212 seems like a perfect successor to the E-class bloodline, if the w211 were removed, particularly in terms of proportion and stance. Just as the w204 looks like the perfect successor to the first generation C, whereby the w203 doesn't really fit in.

Very interesting, thought provoking post. I see see what you're saying. I disagree that the 90's and early 2000's Benzes don't fit in, because they were what Mercedes doing during that time. All the smiley face and "pretty" Benzes worked out great for them (except quality wise, but thats another issue). Mercedes has gone back to their roots though with the W204 and the W212, yes I do see that too. Upright, kinda stern and they're both selling like hotcakes so it was the right move. Especially now that the quality is back in a big way. Thanks for that great post.


M

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Very interesting, thought provoking post. I see see what you're saying. I disagree that the 90's and early 2000's Benzes don't fit in, because they were what Mercedes doing during that time. All the smiley face and "pretty" Benzes worked out great for them (except quality wise, but thats another issue). Mercedes has gone back to their roots though with the W204 and the W212, yes I do see that too. Upright, kinda stern and they're both selling like hotcakes so it was the right move. Especially now that the quality is back in a big way. Thanks for that great post.


M

Thanks Marcus. I think the late 90's early 2000 Benzes did form a harmonious range. They did stay true to MB's design philosophy in terms of simplicity in detail and overall execution. But they were very pretty and quite dainty at times. This was quite disparate from the cars that preceded them which were very teutonic. We now see Mercedes retrun to this teutonic form, embellished with design details from their past to create points of interest in the overall design.

It will be interesting to see where they go next.

 

[K-A]

I agree. I think the 00 era Benzes were true to form in the way that Mr. Mercedes stated, but also were a great departure in another way. I truly love that era however, so I can't knock it much more than saying that it's too bad that the quality sucked. I think the W212 however wouldn't have been such a visual and accompanying quality "statement" if the previous E's weren't quality debacles, however.

Overall, it's the W212 IMO that looks to be tied to the Mercedes heritage in term of character, personality, and charisma, more-so than the W211 (who's lines and design simplicity/purity stayed true to form). The W212's angularity and strong lines and angles are very much there for a reason: To capture the rigid powerful nature of older stately Benz Sedans.

I will agree in that I LOVE washing, and just staring at my car. So many different characters and angles that this car has, that makes it always stand out at you for different reasons. Also, my eyes have gotten so accustomed to the extremely precise, sharp, and detailed, STRAIGHT, angular lines, that when I look at some bendy and curvy lines now, they just don't catch me due to not holding such a precise and crisp firmness.

Now, I will give a criticism to the car, and it actually isn't Design-related.

The AMG Package W212, like the AMG Package W211 (but more improved-so, of course), rides brilliantly on smooth roads. It has a tight and controlled amount of subtle "float" to it, but also has a firmness that gives you the confidence you need when you might have to push it a bit.

However, when the roads get rough, it becomes a disaster. Very non-dampened, lots of chatter from the wheels, I frankly have to cringe over rough patches, which is unbefitting of an E-Class.

Now, I know that I gladly have the Sport Package, and I'll take it every time for the aesthetics, but in the long run, I can see this turning a lot of typical E demographic customers off to the car *in the U.S*. Yes, MBUSA decides to give out the Sport Package for free to get more sales, but they aren't realizing that if my under 30 year old a$$ is discomforted when the roads get rough (I used to have a Mustang GT with a 15" Sub, slammed to the ground, and with a no-muffler exhaust system), then most E buyers will find the car very harsh on our modern disastrously maintained roads.

IMO, MBUSA needs to keep the Luxury model as the base in the U.S, and let the enthusiasts select the AMG Sport Package. And M-B needs to get their priorities straight and remember that this car isn't a handling beast, so instilling a rough ride ONLY for the sake of having a rough ride, DOES NOT make this a "Sporty Car". It annoys me enough that it's the leading factor in me questioning whether I'd want to keep my car for the long haul.

 

[SpiritofEcstasy]

I've always thought that there was more than met the eye with the new E-Class. At first, I was like everyone else- I thought the rear was hideous and too Korean. I literally hated this rear for months, wondering what the M-B designers were thinking when they conceived this thing. But as cliche as this sounds, it grew on me, and when it did, it grew fast. Every time I looked at the rear, it gave me something different. I distinctly remember seeing the E-Class for the first time at night, and my opinions began to change.

Then I saw it again, and then again. It took a few more appearances until I saw something ground-breaking enough about the rear that convinced me that it was distinctively Mercedes Benz. To me, the beauty of it is intangible. I have a hard time describing why it is so beautiful, but can only conclude that it just is. Francis Bacon once said, "There is no beauty that hath not some strangeness", and I think it perfectly describes the W212. The rear is strange, and to many people, debatable. But as the W212 was given a few more months and the arrival of the CLS, it all began to make sense. M-B proved that they are able to produce (and I quote a previous poster), a stately, solid sedan, and juxtapose it with the CLS, a more radical 4-door coupe that has an appearance with a more immediate effect.

I must say that the 5 series is gorgeous. It's clean, simple, and like the CLS, easy to like immediately. However, it's no where as interesting as the W212. It's a very safe design that will appeal to the masses, but will not be anything that gives one an "aha" moment. It's questionable whether or not a car should make one think so much, but its just so much more attractive when it does.

 

[K-A]

Very well said, and completely agreed!

The rear of the W212 I hated so much, I refused to take any pictures of it in stock form, when I first got my car.

Now, I feel like I get it more. It's meant to look better as you see it more, it's meant to have nothing about it that will age it or tire your eyes of it, because it never set out to grab your eyes in the first place (which is in contrast to the front of the car, in fact). Also, I see a lot of classic Stately-MB-Sedan in it, IMO it reminds me of the W126 rear end, which in itself was an evolution of previous Sedans rears.

 

[Michael]

Very well said, and completely agreed!

The rear of the W212 I hated so much, I refused to take any pictures of it in stock form, when I first got my car.

Now, I feel like I get it more. It's meant to look better as you see it more, it's meant to have nothing about it that will age it or tire your eyes of it, because it never set out to grab your eyes in the first place (which is in contrast to the front of the car, in fact). Also, I see a lot of classic Stately-MB-Sedan in it, IMO it reminds me of the W126 rear end, which in itself was an evolution of previous Sedans rears.

Very good point and I feel like that about certain cars. Unfortunately, I do not think the A7 will age well. I think the car is poorly designed. The lines do not seem to connect to the back. It is as if two wholly independent cars were put together. Like someone else said, the front seems to belong to another Audi in the lineup while the back should have been a neglected rear end in the design phase. I do think that Audi will attempt to rectify the design in the next incarnation, if they decide to keep it around.

 

[K-A]

Agreed. I think it'll sell well for Audi's standard for it, initially, then it will sit on Dealer lots and collect dust, just 2-3 years after its debut (like the original CLS did, even though that was/is a highly regarded design).

That's the beauty about a timeless 3-Box Sedan, the E/5 will power away as Sales leaders in their segment, and more importantly, admired designs that hold their own on the streets, until the very day they get replaced by the new model, while fashion-fad designs get the popping smoke and "ooh" factor initially, but like every trend, pass.