Airbus Redesigns new A350-Bad Case of Jet Lag

[Brookside]

Airbus Has A Bad Case Of Jet Lag
Its redesigned, lightweight plane will still trail Boeing's Dreamliner by years

Plastics. They really are the future. More precisely, the carbon-fiber-reinforced plastics known as composites are reshaping the rivalry between Airbus and Boeing Co. (BA ), and the European planemaker has a lot of catching up to do.

With oil prices soaring, airlines are flocking to Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner, which promises to burn 20% less fuel than conventional planes. The 787 is made mostly of composites, which weigh half as much as aluminum, but are stronger so that wings and other parts can be made slimmer and more aerodynamic. Airbus is countering with the A350, a planned aircraft with one-third less composite content than the 787. But most carriers are snubbing it. Small wonder, then, that Airbus Chief Executive Gustav Humbert confirmed at the Berlin Air Show on May 17 that the company will unveil a revamped design for the A350 by July. "The game is not over," he said.

Seems like it should be a cinch for Airbus to up its composite content in a new A350. The company has been building composite parts since the 1980s. The expected $10 billion price shouldn't be a problem, either. Airbus has already overtaken Boeing as the world's top jetmaker. Its parent, European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. (EADS), on May 16 reported first-quarter profits up 26%, to $665 million, on sales up 30%, to $11.7 billion.

But Boeing has a big head start. True, Airbus had been a pacesetter when it introduced composites on tail stabilizers. But Boeing has since leaped ahead with its work on military contracts such as the B-2 bomber and its use of composites on civilian jets such as the 777. Airbus' much smaller composites program lags Boeing's on almost every front, from design to manufacturing to multiyear supply deals for carbon fiber. "All Airbus' engineers and all their factories are working in aluminum," says Andrew Walker, a former top Airbus engineer who now teaches in the materials program at the University of Manchester.

To close the gap with Boeing, Airbus will pour $580 million into research over the next few years. "Their lead will not be for long," says Airbus' Humbert. But Airbus can't get an all-composite plane into service before 2012, four years after the 787. Even then, most industry experts say it's unlikely the Airbus plane would be significantly better than the 787. "It's four years too late with a me-too airplane," crows Randy Baseler, Boeing's vice-president for marketing.

Airbus has plenty of talented engineers, but they're stretched thin. They're wrapping up work on the A380 megaplane, set to enter service at the end of this year, while also developing a new military-transport plane and an air- refueling tanker aircraft. Overall, Airbus spent $2.1 billion on research and development last year, only slightly below 2003, when A380 spending peaked.

STUMBLING BLOCKS
The upshot: while Airbus gets up to speed on composites, Boeing will take an early lead, with 6 or 7 of its 787 Dreamliners rolling out of the factory each month at a list price of $120 million a pop. That gives Boeing plenty of time and money to launch its next plane, most likely an all-composite makeover of the 737. Such a plane would take direct aim at Airbus' best-seller, the A320, throwing the European company on the defensive once again.
Boeing could still stumble. Some 70% of production work on the 787 has been farmed out to contractors worldwide. Even minor glitches could delay the launch. Airbus also knows airlines will keep steering orders its way to prevent Boeing from gaining market dominance. "They don't want to be subject to higher prices," says George Hamlin, the head of Hamlin Transportation Consulting in Fairfax, Va.

The Europeans say they're up to the challenge. "Airbus has a history of successfully managing a steep ramp-up," Humbert says. Indeed, for most of Airbus' 36-year history, its newer aircraft designs and more modern factories gave it an edge over its older U.S. rival. But now, Boeing looks set to invade that comfort zone.


BusinessWeek May 17,2006

 

[Michael]

120 million is actually cheap for the technology that is going into that aircraft. Damn!

A brand new Boeing 777-300ER will range way higher than that. Man what a bummer for Airbus.

I have always been a Boeing fan, so this makes me happy to see that Airbus is falling behind at least in something. Ever since the A380 came out, I thought the queen of the skys was dead and so was Boeing. Nevertheless, this was all due to hype of the A380 which scared many Boeing fans, and the fact that some thought that market only lay with the A380.

Well as it turns out, the A380 is having some problems of its own. Nevertheless, this will not turn away any customers. However, I do see the next Boeing 747-800 taking up some of the A380 share, if not, being bought by the same airlines that bought the A380. So this is very good for Boeing.

In reference to the 737 being redesigned, that is incredible. The 737 has had a bad reputation because of the 100-200 series and all the frames that have been lost. I do however think that the next-generation 737 that were introduced several years ago changed some airlines views on the aircraft. Good for Boeing!


P.S. One thing that really gets me was how Boeing had this idea of the future being with better airplanes that were made out of more composite material and were more fuel efficient, of course along with other things. So many people were against that, and even some said that they were lost. Well, look who is lost now Airbus! (Sorry I had to say that)

 

[Brookside]

I can't translate all these specs from Dutch...but the illustration looks to be a
comparison of materials used on each fuselage.

 

[Michael]

The is truly remarkable how the 787 is so much more advanced. Boeing really did it's homework when designing this plane. I thin Airbus rushed into it to try to compete and therefore didn't want to redesign the 330 so much or completely design a new aircraft. Now they are falling back.

OH one thing I wanted to say was conerning the 787 and the tail you see. That is not the tail that is truly going to be on the aircraft. Boeing has radically changed the aircrafts look.

 

[Brookside]

A nice comparison to the Airbus A380 heavy.

BMWFreak...I love the 787 tailwing...what will they change?

 

[Michael]

Take a look at the picture that I posted above you last post. That is the official rendering of what the 787 should look like. The shark fin as been done away with to bring back the typical rudder that Boeing has.

The sharp nose that you see in the comparison between the A380, 787, and the bus is done away with as well, for a more conventional and less radical nose.

The radical design has changed a lot.

 

[Brookside]

What were the reasons?
The new redesign..especially of the nose...renders the 787 into a somewhat ordinary configuration....aside from the wings.
The original 787 fuselage design - with it's elongated nose and relatively small cockpit window reminded me of this....

 

[Michael]

The Constellation if I am not mistaken is the name of that plane.

What a beauty.

Do you know they still have one in preservation at some musuem. A few months ago I was going through Airliners.net and I saw that the plane had taken a flight recently which was done by the TWA musuem or something to that effect.

More pictures here: http://www.airliners.net/search/pho..._limit=15&sort_order=photo_id+DESC&nr_pages=6


In reference to the changes that Boeing made to the 787 I think one could say that were expected. Maybe some sort of regulation or engineers fearing that it was not an apt design, went ahead and changed it. So in a way, it is a modern version of a 757 and a 767. I am not sure about the seating capacity, but I do know that different versions are going to be made. I realy look forward to the introduction of this aircraft in the aviation industry, as it truly will be a marvel.


Here is a picture that I got from a thread at airliners.net which is referencing to a article on the Boeing 787 and the decision to whether they should ramp up production:

 

[Michael]

The picture I posted above reminds me so much of a Boeing 767-300ER.

 

[ZicZachZo]

You know I'm kind of dissapointed that 787 looks really different from when the first CG images were realesed. One thing that looks really really cool is the inside of that airplane. That looks very promising. As for the A350... Well I really haven't heard anything about it.

 

[wltsm]

I think Boeing have been very clever making the 787 a small plane rather than making a bigger 747, like Airbus have with the A380!

At this moment in time, people are thinking about the environment and so, big planes such as the A380 aren't going to be good! Also there are only so many routes the A380 can be used, because not all airports can support such a big plane, were as the 787 can be used anywhere!

 

[SDNR]

Boeing are being very smart here - the Dreamliner concept is actually much better for airlines in the long term -- enabling non-stop, long-distance traveling in a more fuel efficient aircraft ends up making more economic sense than a big mammoth aircraft that needs to be filled to capacity to make any sense.

Just as an aside -- I have always preferred the look of Boeing's aircraft to the European Airbus's anyway -- the Americans may all prefer Mercedes-Benzes to Cadillacs ..but they still make the nicest passenger planes IMO.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

I think Boeing have been very clever making the 787 a small plane rather than making a bigger 747, like Airbus have with the A380!

At this moment in time, people are thinking about the environment and so, big planes such as the A380 aren't going to be good! Also there are only so many routes the A380 can be used, because not all airports can support such a big plane, were as the 787 can be used anywhere!

Good thinking on Boeing's part to develop a 767 replacement rather than try to build a 747 replacement to take on the A380. When you think about it, there's nothing overly clever about their decision. I mean, there certainly would not be room for 2 new super-jumbos on the market, and out of the whole Boeing line-up, it is the 767 which most needs a fresh replacement. So the decision to build the 787 was simple common sense.

What is clever is the way they are constructing the aircraft. That diagram posted by James showing the construction material of 787 and A350 clearly shows the leap Boeing has made. Airbus has been left reeling.. not because of a series of low-blows, but a significant punch..and the knock-out punch could well be the competitive pricing of the 787.

Can Airbus turn the A350 into a serious competitor to the 787? Yes.
..but can it do it in time? ... that's where Airbus may fall short.
They've admitted that Boeing have outdone them, and that there needs to be significant improvements to the A350 if it is to match (let alone surpass) the 787.

Second interesting question is whether the A380 gamble will pay off? Airbus say yes..and they're using order numbers to back their claims. Boeing on the other hand are playing down not the success of the A380 (if you want to call it successful yet), but rather the purpose.

Two interesting questions, two important aircraft and two aircraft manufacturers. Who would have thought the battle for the skies would get this hot ??

 

[SDNR]

OH one thing I wanted to say was conerning the 787 and the tail you see. That is not the tail that is truly going to be on the aircraft. Boeing has radically changed the aircrafts look.

I was reading about that; although the final design is not quite as dramatic to look at, it is much more aerodynamic than the original concept design.

 

[Michael]

You know I'm kind of dissapointed that 787 looks really different from when the first CG images were realesed. One thing that looks really really cool is the inside of that airplane. That looks very promising. As for the A350... Well I really haven't heard anything about it.

www.airbus.com will tell you what you need to know about the A350

 

[Michael]

I think Boeing have been very clever making the 787 a small plane rather than making a bigger 747, like Airbus have with the A380!

At this moment in time, people are thinking about the environment and so, big planes such as the A380 aren't going to be good! Also there are only so many routes the A380 can be used, because not all airports can support such a big plane, were as the 787 can be used anywhere!

True, yet the A380 is a very promising aircraft. Look at cargo carriers like Fed Ex and UPS. They will need a high capacity plane like this, which will serve them well. In addition to this look at airlines like Emirates--which in a way they are extreme in purchasing, I think, over 40 A380's--they will use the A380 to go to so many places in the world.

The runway situation is an issue for the A380, however, there were issues when the 747 came to be, not as bad, but they were there. So, I would assume that in time major airports will be able to take the A380. I would go as far as saying that in 10-15 years, the most profitable locations will have a runway and airport system ready to take on the A380.

Boeing are being very smart here - the Dreamliner concept is actually much better for airlines in the long term -- enabling non-stop, long-distance traveling in a more fuel efficient aircraft ends up making more economic sense than a big mammoth aircraft that needs to be filled to capacity to make any sense.

Just as an aside -- I have always preferred the look of Boeing's aircraft to the European Airbus's anyway -- the Americans may all prefer Mercedes-Benzes to Cadillacs ..but they still make the nicest passenger planes IMO.

Roberto, I absolutely agree with you. There is something about Boeing that is quite different when it comes to design. However, I will say that Airbus does have some sexy looking aircraft like the A330 and the A3440(which eventually grew on me). Nevertheless, there is something about Boeing that truly stands out. You take a look at the Boeing 777 and you will see a curve sequence that is so beautiful and it seems to have the "from follows function" attribute. I sometimes look at the 777 and tie it to a great white shark. The shizzled front nose gives the aircraft an aggressive presense.

I was reading about that; although the final design is not quite as dramatic to look at, it is much more aerodynamic than the original concept design.

Correct. I truly think that Boeing did the very "cool" looking sketch of the dreamliner to facinate airlines and designers alike. When they started to get serious about it and airlines started to show interest, perhaps they began modifying the aircraft since there they were seeing that a high demand would come about.

Good thinking on Boeing's part to develop a 767 replacement rather than try to build a 747 replacement to take on the A380. When you think about it, there's nothing overly clever about their decision. I mean, there certainly would not be room for 2 new super-jumbos on the market, and out of the whole Boeing line-up, it is the 767 which most needs a fresh replacement. So the decision to build the 787 was simple common sense.

BeerMer Boi, I think your assertion of Boeing building the 787 for replacement of the 767 is slightly wrong. I think, and I may be wrong, that the 787 is suppose to pick up where the 757 left off and enter 767 territory. The 767 has actually been a successful aircraft for Boeing, but like you said, the aging 767 needs to be replaced. However, Boeing stopped production of the 757 and most like will stop production for the 767 in a few years as well. So I see the 787 not only replacing the 767 but also the 757.

What is clever is the way they are constructing the aircraft. That diagram posted by James showing the construction material of 787 and A350 clearly shows the leap Boeing has made. Airbus has been left reeling.. not because of a series of low-blows, but a significant punch..and the knock-out punch could well be the competitive pricing of the 787.

This is correct. The 787 from the get go was always advanced, so advanced that I would say that many thought it was a far fetched project. I think Boeing still has a lot of modification to do, because like I said before they have introduced many design concepts at first that have been weeded out. So we may see more changes. As a matter of fact, I read the other day that they were making changes to the wing? I can't recall exactly if that is what it was.

Can Airbus turn the A350 into a serious competitor to the 787? Yes.
..but can it do it in time? ... that's where Airbus may fall short.
They've admitted that Boeing have outdone them, and that there needs to be significant improvements to the A350 if it is to match (let alone surpass) the 787.

This is also correct. I don't think Airbus will be able to fund a program for the A350 to be redesigned any time soon. In addition to this, even if they were, they would probably come in to the market with the first production aircraft in 2012? The 787 will be out by then.

Second interesting question is whether the A380 gamble will pay off? Airbus say yes..and they're using order numbers to back their claims. Boeing on the other hand are playing down not the success of the A380 (if you want to call it successful yet), but rather the purpose.

In this situation Boeing may be like Airbus is now with the 787. However, I think Boeing has had some true logic behind their statements. The A380 is huge, and like someone already mentioned, it can only fly to certain airports right now. Boeing has designed the new 747-800, which is easy for Boeing becuase they are essentially doing the same exact thing that Airbus is trying to do with the A350. The difference is, in my opinion, they are actually making the aircraft compete for what they are saying it is going to compete for. Take Airbus. They have built the flying whale. They have orders up the wall, and some may be delayed because of problems with the program. Now look at Boeing. They have designed, or are designing, the 747-800 which essentially is using much of the many components from the current 747 which cuts down on time and design and production cost. They are arguging that the 747 fit in between the current 747 and the A380. Why would someone want to position an aircraft in between there? Well for the sake of playing devils advocate, one could say that Boeing has no choice. They cannot throw themselves into designging something that would compete with the A380 because of the money, lack of time, and the fact that it may fail and not be as profitable. However, they may be using the current 747 frame to their advantage. Knowing that the production costs for the 747-800 would not be as high as developing a new aircraft, they may just bargain out a new aircraft like the 747-800 so that airlines can have another option in place of the A380. Airlines can even use the both as both aircrafts are not competing directly. However, Boeing will compare what the A380 revenues per seat to what the 747-800 is expected to do. So indeed there is some sort of intention behind them. I think they are just trying to take a little bit of this well established market that Airbus has been making the past decade for a super jumbo. Promising for Boeing, because they are not bound to lose billions in sales because of this or in production.

Some may argue that this 747-800 indeed will debunk the A380 myth and truly be a successful one. There are reports that there are still many airlines on the fence on whether to go with the A380 or the 747-800. Currently there is no one in line for the 747-800 passenger version. So this may benefit airlines like BA and others that have yet to decide on whether to get on the long waiting list for the A380.

 

[Brookside]

Boeing 787 1st Class Cabin


Boeing 787 Cockpit

 

[wltsm]

The 1st class of the 787 looks very nice, so much room!

The cockpit looks very technical, I'm sure this plane has every technology known to man, does anyone know if it will have wireless internet?

 

[Michael]

Boeing currently leased a 777-200 from American Airlines. I am not sure if it is a brand new one that was never delivered or a used one. However, I am sure Boeing is cutting a deal to AA for their next purchase or the reaming order that they have deffered. Right on to the topic. They have leased a 777 from AA in order to test the avionics of some sort of software related programming for the 787. I know that for the 777 a 757 was used to test the programming, but Boeing decided to get a 777 because it is more advanced and it is somewhat similiar, in design, to what Boeing is going to do with the 787. This new program, or mechanics, is going to relieve wing flex in the middle of the wing.

I have to find the article on this, but it is rather intersting. I think Boeing will eventually incorporate this on their 777 Freighter version.

 

[Michael]

The 1st class of the 787 looks very nice, so much room!

The cockpit looks very technical, I'm sure this plane has every technology known to man, does anyone know if it will have wireless internet?

There are currently some airlines that have wireless internet access. It is very slow, but good enough to be traveling at 36,000 ft in the air.

I think Boeing may incorporate wireless into the 787, but this will be up to the airline than to Boeing I woul say.