Airbus fights back!!!

[Beemer B773ER]

It would probably be cost-effective for Boeing to stretch the 7478i to the 7478F length, but who knows.

About why no one has jumped on the 747-8 like a fat kids would on cup cakes is something we don't know. We really don't know what is going on behind the seens. For all we know BA, Iberia, and others may be speaking to Boeing and waiting for final results and this may also be the reason why Boeing is considering lengthing the 747 just like with the 777LR and Qantas, except with the 7478 we don't know who is asking for the lengthing

I wonder just how cost-effective it would be for Boeing to now stretch the 747-8i to the same length as the freighter mainly because I'm 100% sure that Boeing would have already found the most cost-efficient method of production for the 747-8 project during the planning stages rather than this late in the development process.
The initial 747-8i added about 34 seats on the 747-400 (450 seat vs 416 seats) so it ain't a significant increase in that sense, but the difference in length was only 3.6m (11.7ft). If the 747-8i is stretched to the same length as the 747-8F it would mean an additional 2.1m. I guess that would stretch the seating to about 50 seats over the 747-400. Ofcourse the 747-8i's main selling point is not increased seating capacity but rather increased operational efficiencies.

I think we as aircraft/airlines fans have let uor enthusiam get in the way of simple business reasoning. The reason why some of us are baffled as to why the 747-8i hasn't gained a host of orders is because we simply expected airlines to order 747-8i and gradually retire their 747-400 fleet. That seems like the common sense thing to do since the -8 is an obvious improvement ... BUT.. we must take a business point of view. In the consumer world, brand name and reputation play a decisive part in the buying process, but in the business to business market (such as the aircraft market) a new 747 aircraft means nothing unless it provides a sound business decision for airlines.
They are simply waiting to see if Boeing can deliver on the claims it made in its press releases on the 747-8. Although you could argue that many airlines jumped onto the 787 band-wagon at such an early stage in its development process, these airlines are desperate for a 757/767/A330 replacement, whereas they are in no hurry to replace their 744's. So in that sense, there probably won't be a large demand for the 748i prior to its launch, but if Boeing can deliver on claims such as..
- 9 percent lower seat-mile costs than the 747-400, plus 21 percent greater cargo volume.
- The 747-8 is more than 12 percent lighter per seat than the A380 and will consume 11 percent less fuel per passenger.
... then it is reasonable to say Boeing will receive more orders for its 748i.
Also, the delay in deciding on the 748 is partly due to airlines waiting to see how the A380 performs. We've already seen what Emirates thinks of A380's delay issues by ordering 10 748F aircraft, and at the same time is attempting to cancel an order for 20 Airbus A340-600's in favour of 773ER's and 772LR's.

We simply need patients and the 748 orders will begin to come in.

--

I beg to differ. I think the 777 will still be wider than the 787 unless Boeing changes its plan, which would really not benefit them. I have always viewed the 787 as a 757/767 replacement, basically hitting two birds with one stone, but I may be wrong. The 777 currently is unmatched and I highly doubt the 787 will match it, maybe on range but not cargo capacity or passenger capacity.

I'm not too sure about that Mike. I researched the 787-9 and the 777-200/ER and found these numbers. They are VERY similar aircrafts.

787-9:
Seating: 250-290
Range: 8,800 nautical miles
Cross section: 5.74m (226 in.)
Max. Takeoff Weight: 540,000 lbs (244,940 kg)
Length: 63m (206 ft.)
Height: 17m (56 ft.)
Wing span: 60m (197 ft.)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.85

777-200:
Seating: 305 (typical 3-class config')
Range: 5,210 nautical miles
Cross section: 5.86m (231 in.)
Max. Takeoff Weight: 545,000 lbs (247,210 kg)
Length: 63.7m (209ft 1in.)
Height: 18.5m (60ft 9in.)
Wing span: 60.9m (199ft. 11in)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.84

777-200ER:
Seating: 301 (typical 3-class config')
Range: 7,730 nautical miles
Cross section: 5.86m (231 in.)
Max. Takeoff Weight: 656,000 lbs (297,560 kg)
Length: 63.7m (209ft 1in.)
Height: 18.5m (60ft 9in.)
Wing span: 60.9m (199ft. 11in)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.84

So it's fairly easy to see that the 787-9 is very similar to the 772's...so you can imagine what the rumoured 787-10 will be like. I'm guessing it will have increased seating, payload and range than the 787-9, thereby effectively eliminating the need for the 772 family (except for the 772LR)

The only significant difference I could find between the 772 and the 787-8 (note, it's the -8, not the -9) is that cargo. While the 787-8 can hold only 5 pallets + 5 LD3s, the 772 can carry 6 pallets + 14 LD3s. It must be noted though that the 787-8's MTOW is 476,000 lbs while the 787-9's MTOW is 540,000 lbs, therefore opening the opportunity for added cargo capacity compared to the -8.
But in most respects, the 787-9 is very similar to the 772.

All i gotta say is... Airbus will have their hands full trying to top the 787 and 777. Good luck to them.. they'll sure need it.

 

[Michael]

--



I'm not too sure about that Mike. I researched the 787-9 and the 777-200/ER and found these numbers. They are VERY similar aircrafts.

787-9:
Seating: 250-290
Range: 8,800 nautical miles
Cross section: 5.74m (226 in.)
Max. Takeoff Weight: 540,000 lbs (244,940 kg)
Length: 63m (206 ft.)
Height: 17m (56 ft.)
Wing span: 60m (197 ft.)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.85

777-200:
Seating: 305 (typical 3-class config')
Range: 5,210 nautical miles
Cross section: 5.86m (231 in.)
Max. Takeoff Weight: 545,000 lbs (247,210 kg)
Length: 63.7m (209ft 1in.)
Height: 18.5m (60ft 9in.)
Wing span: 60.9m (199ft. 11in)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.84

777-200ER:
Seating: 301 (typical 3-class config')
Range: 7,730 nautical miles
Cross section: 5.86m (231 in.)
Max. Takeoff Weight: 656,000 lbs (297,560 kg)
Length: 63.7m (209ft 1in.)
Height: 18.5m (60ft 9in.)
Wing span: 60.9m (199ft. 11in)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.84

So it's fairly easy to see that the 787-9 is very similar to the 772's...so you can imagine what the rumoured 787-10 will be like. I'm guessing it will have increased seating, payload and range than the 787-9, thereby effectively eliminating the need for the 772 family (except for the 772LR)

The only significant difference I could find between the 772 and the 787-8 (note, it's the -8, not the -9) is that cargo. While the 787-8 can hold only 5 pallets + 5 LD3s, the 772 can carry 6 pallets + 14 LD3s. It must be noted though that the 787-8's MTOW is 476,000 lbs while the 787-9's MTOW is 540,000 lbs, therefore opening the opportunity for added cargo capacity compared to the -8.
But in most respects, the 787-9 is very similar to the 772.

All i gotta say is... Airbus will have their hands full trying to top the 787 and 777. Good luck to them.. they'll sure need it.

Hmm. Thanks for those numbers but it seems that the 777 still has a 5inch lead and that may seem like nothing but that is what Airbus is using to conquer the 787 which brings something very interesting to the table. Did Airbus say that the A350 is 5 inches longer than the 787? or 5 inch longer than the original A350? Because if it is the former then they are truly making an identical aircraft to the 777 and then they are banking in the right direction. Take into considertaion that 5inches may enable a passenger against the fuselage to strech upwardly more than a passenger in a 757. I need to look up the cross section of a 757, but I have flown in them and they are truly the most uncomfortable aircrafts to fly in a 6 across setting. Truthfully you are crammed in.

Let me do a little research...

Ok, let's compare the 757 with the 787 and then the three to see where Boeing is headed.

This is interior width only


The Boeing 757 has an interior width of: 11ft 7 inch

The Boeing 787 has an interior width of: about 18 ft

That is about a 6-7 inch increase and that is good enough to position in a better market.

Now, when you compared the 777 you see another 5inch increase. So you see where I am getting at. The 5 inches does make some sort of difference. i am not sure, but I know that the engineers can truly appreciate this.

Now, my question still remains about the 5 inch in difference withthe A350. Is it in relation to the older model or the 787. If it is in relation to the 787 they are buildling almost an identical fuselage to the 777, and this truly is a good move by Airbus in my opinion.

Remember how at the beginning of this thread I looked at the video that was used by Airbus to present the A350. One of the first things I said was that it looked so much like a 777. However, you are not able to tell whether it looks like something until you can see the dimensions of the aircraft. I am afraid that Airbus' true goal here is to subdue and outdue the 777 by making a plane that is newer and more efficient than it. While doing this they are going to attract people away from the 787. So, they are trying to kill two birds with one stone and this in some basic form explains their rationale.

Tell me what you think...

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Sorry for the delay in replying BMWFREAK.

To answer your question about that 5 inch difference, I remember reading on Airliners.net that Mr Leahy said the A350XWB cabin would be 5 inches wider than the 787 at high level (so not floor level), would have straighter walls than the A330/A340 family and offer 8 or 9 abreast seating.

So in that sense, I don't think the A350 has that 5-inch floor wide advantage that you think it might. The A350 and the 787 have same abreast seating, so the whole "XWB" thing is simply a marketing gimmick.

Actually, I've actually found the actual specs' for the A350. I'll compared it to the 777 and the 787.

Cabin width
A350: 5.28m (17 ft. 4 in.) ..both for -800 and -900. (No spec's for A350-1000 as yet)
B777: 5.86m (19 ft. 3 in.) ..for all aircraft in 777 family.
B787: 5.74m (18 ft. 10 in.) .. for all aircraft in 787 family.

A350 info: http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/specifications.html
B777 info: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_200product.html
B787: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/787-9prod.html

So from this info, it seems as though the A350 is the narrowest of the three. We know that the 777 can seat 10 abreast (as seen with Emirates) and the A350 doesn't have anything over the 787 as seen by these stats.

Now let's look at Maximum Takeoff Weight for the trio.

MTOW
A350: 540,100 lbs ..both for -800 and -900.

B777-200: 545,000 lbs.
B777-200ER: 656,000 lbs.
B777-200LR: 766,000 lbs.
B777-300: 660,000 lb.
B777-300ER: 775,000 lbs.

B787-8: 476,000 lbs.
B787-9: 540,000 lbs.

So comparing MTOW's for these three aircraft, it's obvious the 777 family is in a league of its own. We have to wait for the A350-1000 to see if it can match (or surpass) the 777's MTOW.
As for the A350 / 787 battle in relation to MTOW, they seem pretty much identical. Yes the 787-8 has a lesser MTOW than the A350-900, but that's because the A350-900 is a bit larger aircraft than the 787-8 in terms of seating capacity, range and also MTOW. So the 787-8 doesn't really have a true/direct competitor.

So far it seems as though the A350 is not so special... BUT, when looking at the range of the aircrafts, the picture begins to change (a little bit).

Range
A350-800: 16,300 km (8,800 nm)
A350-900: 13,900 km (7,500 nm)

B777-200: 9,649 km (5,210 nm)
B777-200ER: 14,316 km (7,730 nm)
B777-200LR: 17,446 km (9,420 nm)
B777-300: 11,029 km (5,955 nm)
B777-300ER: 14,594 km (7,880 nm)

B787-8: 15,700 km (8,500 nm)
B787-9: 16,300 km (8,800 nm)

This paints an interesting picture for Airbus. Their lower capacity aircraft offers greater range (obviously due to lower weight), but effectively eliminates the 777-200/-300 in terms of range capabilities and just about matched the -ER versions. This leaves only the 772LR and the 787-9 to out run the A350-900 but then the A350-800 comes into play. The downfall for the A350-800 when battling the 772LR and 787-9 is that it gives up about 40-50 seats, ..but I guess that's the price Airbus pays for trying to take on 2 Boeing aircraft families with a single family.

..And you know what the beauty of all this is? These are the figures for the current time. We still have to see if Airbus can deliver on these figures...and secondly, Boeing has atleast 4 years to gradually improve both the 787 and 777 aircrafts. There's no doubt Boeing is going to give the 777 improvements in terms of composite materials, engine efficiency, payload, range and maybe even seating capacity. You can be assured that since Airbus has shown its hand, Boeing can now plan and improve the 777 and 787 to trump the A350.

I don't think Boeing has anything to really worry about.

..and oh, just gotta add the pricing. Airbus says the A350-800 will cost $185M while the 787-8 will cost $148 - 157.5M and the 787-9 is priced at $178.5 - 188M. So the A350 won't have the cheaper pricing advantage that past Airbus models have had over Boeing..and that's pricing right now. If development costs increase due to delays and changes (as seen with the A380) then prices could increase a little more. The A350 is merely a 'me too' airline...and these type of products don't really do too well.

We'll see.

 

[Michael]

I see your point with everything that you have presented. First, I would like to say good job on the research!

So let me get something straight. The A350 is not as big as the 777 and maybe a tad bigger than the 787 but only in the uppder area?

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Ah shnizzle..my apologise to you Mike. The figures I have used for the A350-800 and -900 are not the revised and revamped 'XWB' aircraft, but the original A350.

Gosh I feel like such a goose.

The new specs are not out as yet. I apologise again.

--

Have you read the latest news, Singapore Airlines just placed an order for 20 x A350-900 ...and ... 9 x A380's.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2891098/

BIG NEWS !!!

 

[Michael]

You know I had done the same exact thing earlier but had dismissed by calculations because I knew that the fuselage was just to small for it to be the new A350. In addition to this I had compared the numbers from the A350 to the A330 and it was confirmed that they were the same fuselage.

Wow, Sigapore Airlines jumped on good for them. I thought they had placed orders with Boeing for the 787 though? You know Singapore is one of those airlines, like Emirates that can probable afford 1. to have more than one type of airplane and 2. need the diversification. For example, there are some airlines that already have the A380 on order but are also considering the 747-8.


Here is another UPDATE

I guess it is clear that Boeing lost in sales in Farnborough. Take a look at this article: http://www.flightglobal.com/Article...+just+pipped+by+Airbus+in+air+show+sales.html

Like some members on A-net said, it is interesting that Boeing was doing really well at the beginning of this year, but now it is clear that Airbus is playing catch up.

In this article:http://www.flightglobal.com/Article...y+ordering+20+Airbus+A350s,+nine+further.html
It appears that SIA does have an order for some 787's, so my theory of these 'hybrid' airlines is correct. They also put in an additional order for nine A380s.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

You know I had done the same exact thing earlier but had dismissed by calculations because I knew that the fuselage was just to small for it to be the new A350. In addition to this I had compared the numbers from the A350 to the A330 and it was confirmed that they were the same fuselage.

Yeh, I can't believe I was so fricken stupid for not even cross-checking it, because I too thought it was ver perculiar that the A350 cabin-width figures were so far behind that of the 787 (let alone the 777). I guess we have to wait for the figures now. But what I said earlier was still correct about:
" To answer your question about that 5 inch difference, I remember reading on Airliners.net that Mr Leahy said the A350XWB cabin would be 5 inches wider than the 787 at high level (so not floor level), would have straighter walls than the A330/A340 family and offer 8 or 9 abreast seating. "

--

Wow, Sigapore Airlines jumped on good for them. I thought they had placed orders with Boeing for the 787 though? You know Singapore is one of those airlines, like Emirates that can probable afford 1. to have more than one type of airplane and 2. need the diversification. For example, there are some airlines that already have the A380 on order but are also considering the 747-8.

I think for SQ is going for option number 2. Unlike Emirates who is considering either the 787 or A350, Singapore is becoming more open to having a mixed fleet. Also, it seems as though SQ is going to utilise its 787 orders for Asia-region flights while the A350-900's will be used for longer-haul routes.

Those 9 extra A380's will be very concerning for Qantas and British Airways, because from what I've been reading at Airliners.net, it seems as though these added A380's will strengthen SQ's capacity on the Kangaroo Route (Sydney - London). Qantas still has 12 options at its disposal, so they may just take up those options.... OR... because Qantas is getting frustrated at the A380 delays, they may opt for the 747-8. Another plus for going for the 747-8 is guaranteed early delivery due to the lack of orders as yet. British Airways is stalling on jumping aboard the A380 band-wagon, so there is hope that the 747-8 launch customer could well be BA. Fingers crossed!!

But still no time to panic for Boeing.. they simply need to stroll back to the drawing board for the 777's future as well as maybe even the 787-10 to trump the new kid on the block - A350.
Emirates said they will only order the 787 or the A350... and 70-100 of them... so you can bet Boeing would love to score that one to wash down the bad taste of this Singapore Airlines announcement.

Amazing how interesting the commercial airline industry.

 

[Michael]

Those 9 extra A380's will be very concerning for Qantas and British Airways, because from what I've been reading at Airliners.net, it seems as though these added A380's will strengthen SQ's capacity on the Kangaroo Route (Sydney - London). Qantas still has 12 options at its disposal, so they may just take up those options.... OR... because Qantas is getting frustrated at the A380 delays, they may opt for the 747-8. Another plus for going for the 747-8 is guaranteed early delivery due to the lack of orders as yet. British Airways is stalling on jumping aboard the A380 band-wagon, so there is hope that the 747-8 launch customer could well be BA. Fingers crossed!!

That is very interesting. I wonder if Airbus has anything to do with these 9 orders in the sense of them pressuring SQ or giving them a break, knowing that other airlines are on the fence and they may get worried. So, Airbus may be playing both sides of the field. However, I think Boeing may be the choice for Qantas since I think the revenue is higher and the plane is more efficient, or the claim is, than the A380. Like with everything, we will have to wait and see.

Boeing does have to go back to the drawing board with the 777, but not to much. The lightened aircraft will probably be very promising, but it will make the original 777LR look like a joke. So, PIA and other airlines may get mad about this. Interesting how sometimes being the last one in line may be the best. Seeing companies compete, which is a capitalistic idea, is great for the consumer.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

I doubt that Airbus had much to do with the SQ orders in terms of attempting to influence other carriers. I think what Airbus did is put forward some financially attractive proposal to SQ for the A380 delays and in the process threw in a discount for the A350's. Also, it seems as though the 19 A330-300's will be 'interim' aircraft required by SQ until the A350's are delivered to them. Considering that 20 A350's, 9 A380's and 19 A333's were ordered by SQ, you'd have to think some attractive discount suade SQ to purchase all these aircrafts.
At the same time, you'd also have to think that SQ has some inside info on the performance of the A350X-900 to divert them from their tendancy to purchase 777's. I guess SQ is convinced that the A350 will out-do the current 777's, but common sense would tell you that Boeing will work hard to come up with a A350 killer by the time 2012 comes around.

Considering there is considerable room for improvement on the 772LR (eg: composite materials), you'd have to say Boeing will still reign the "Long Range" leader. But overall, I wonder just what Boeing will do to respond. We know that the 777 can be improved, but what will be the fate of the 787-9 and more importantly the 787-10 ?
I mean, Boeing could simply up the ante of the 787-10 and make it essentially a 777-300 sized aircraft with obvious operational efficiencies over the 773, and then bump up the size of the 777-300ER (especially if the 747-8 doesn't meet expected demand).... but then comes the question of whether such improvements will impede the Y3.
I dunno just how much you know or have heard of the Y3... I certainly know very little about it... but here's a link to understand what the Y3 could be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Y3

Boeing might infact be squeezed out by its own future projects.... it all depends on just how drastic and desperate the situation becomes for Boeing. I doubt it will become as desperate as I just made it sound, but it all depends on how much 'punch' Boeing wants to create for its Y-projects (Yellowstone).

As for the Boeing 747-8 being the favoured choice for Qantas, ...well, it all depends on how many they order, and also which routes their A380's fly.
From what I've read (from a project I had to do for Qantas), it seems as though Qantas will initially operate its A380's on the Sydney/Melbourne to North America route, ..but no doubt the A380 will travel the Kangaroo Route to London as well. The issue here is how bad Qantas wants to operate a non-stop flight from Sydney to London. If they REALLY want it, they'll push Boeing for a lighter 772LR and buy a bunch of those...but if they conceed the idea of a non-stop flight, then they may order more A380's to compete head to head with Singapore's new orders.
You'd have to say that most airlines will retire their 747-400's for either the A380 (where there is an expected increase in demand on certain routes) or the 747-8 (to gain operational efficiencies over their current 744's).

As for your thinking about airlines such as PIA will get mad at Boeing for creating a lighter, more efficient 772LR, I don't think Boeing will be too fussed about that.. and they may just offer airlines such a PIA some sort of 'conversion discount' to order the newer aircraft.
I just checked the Boeing website to see who has currently ordered the 772LR and how many aircraft. Here's the link: http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=displaystandardreport.cfm&pageid=m25062&RequestTimeout=100000
Currently, only 6 customers have ordered the 772LR, so they won't peeve off too many airlines. It all depends of if they decide to make a lighter version of the 772LR.

--

Seeing companies compete, which is a capitalistic idea, is great for the consumer.

Totally agree. Competition hurts the companies, but it ultimately benefits the consumer.

You know.. from my recent university studies on Marketing, I've come to realise that 'Customer loyalty' is a critical success factor. I wonder just how loyal airlines are to the brand, ...or, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, it's all about the bottom line. Do you know if Airbus or Boeing has some sort of loyalty program in place such as an aircraft replacement agreement?

 

[Michael]

I doubt that Airbus had much to do with the SQ orders in terms of attempting to influence other carriers. I think what Airbus did is put forward some financially attractive proposal to SQ for the A380 delays and in the process threw in a discount for the A350's. Also, it seems as though the 19 A330-300's will be 'interim' aircraft required by SQ until the A350's are delivered to them. Considering that 20 A350's, 9 A380's and 19 A333's were ordered by SQ, you'd have to think some attractive discount suade SQ to purchase all these aircrafts.
At the same time, you'd also have to think that SQ has some inside info on the performance of the A350X-900 to divert them from their tendancy to purchase 777's. I guess SQ is convinced that the A350 will out-do the current 777's, but common sense would tell you that Boeing will work hard to come up with a A350 killer by the time 2012 comes around.

What I think is so interesting about this is the fact that these manufacturers can play with numbers so much. You see, car manufacturers don’t do these things. Of course the market is different and the prices are set and that is the end of story, with of course some exceptions i.e, employee discount, etc. However, Airbus and Boeing must go through hard times where discounts and packages are essential to them selling. For example, I am sure that when the A380 was offered there were no discounts, maybe slightly, but the plane was going to be a hot hot plane and would benefit those who were interested in it tremendously. With that said, it is interesting to see how things have turned out.

Considering there is considerable room for improvement on the 772LR (eg: composite materials), you'd have to say Boeing will still reign the "Long Range" leader. But overall, I wonder just what Boeing will do to respond. We know that the 777 can be improved, but what will be the fate of the 787-9 and more importantly the 787-10 ?
I mean, Boeing could simply up the ante of the 787-10 and make it essentially a 777-300 sized aircraft with obvious operational efficiencies over the 773, and then bump up the size of the 777-300ER (especially if the 747-8 doesn't meet expected demand).... but then comes the question of whether such improvements will impede the Y3.
I dunno just how much you know or have heard of the Y3... I certainly know very little about it... but here's a link to understand what the Y3 could be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Y3

To be honest with you I have definitely never heard of the Y3. I looked it up, using your link, and I found nothing that was that informative other than a new aircraft that will eventually replace the 777.

I have to tell you, that despite the fact that the 777 can be improved I think its day are numbered. Now, before you go and cut my head off, I have to say that I am saying this very lightly. However, I do think that Airbus has a good product here. We do of course have to wait for the real data to be out on how big this aircraft will be so that we can compare it to the 777. But, it seems that Airbus may not really be after the 787, like many of us think. It indeed may be after the 777, which has hurt it enough. I think it is time for Airbus to evaluate itself, which I think they did, and bring out a product that will out do the 777, which I think this may be the product I am talking about. Think about it. The A340-500 was not able to match the 777LR—of course the 777LR came after but we need to take into consideration that there is only so much one can do with a date fuselage like the A340-500—in long ranges. So, I think Airbus is looking into the future, considering what airlines are going to do with their 777s down the road. I know that airplane probably has 10-15 years of commercial service—this is taking into consideration the planes that were bought a few years ago, not the future orders that have yet to be delivered or even manufactured—which will later serve as freight dogs.

My point may be extremely invalid, but I do think that the 777 has competition ahead of itself. I think Boeing may improve it, but when you are comparing an aircraft that already has its fundamentals in place, and another one that has not even reached the manufacturing line, you wonder who has the bigger advantage. I think Airbus does. Airbus has many years ahead of itself, the 777 has about 12(counting the early 90’s).

I really think that this Boeing vs. Airbus battle goes up and down with the tide. One will be on top for a while then the other will get its chance. You never know.

Do you know if Airbus or Boeing has some sort of loyalty program in place such as an aircraft replacement agreement?

I doubt it. I do think that these negotiations are fierece. They never seem to be rigid. It seems that a person can walk out of a contract at the last minute. So, I am sure that both Boeing and Airbus take these things into consideration. However, I am sure that both B and A wine and dine the execs and the engineers to heaven and back. Think about the power these sales teams have. They listen to what you have to say, and you are right. I bet SIA got some discount for launching the A350.

 

[Matt]

On my last trip to Europe we took the airbus equivalent to the 747 (not sure waht the model name was) but I really didnt enjoy. the cabin seems to flex alot during turbulence compared to the 747 which feels pretty solid. I know that flexibility or lack of rigidity is good for but personally I prefer boeing.

 

[Michael]

On my last trip to Europe we took the airbus equivalent to the 747 (not sure waht the model name was) but I really didnt enjoy. the cabin seems to flex alot during turbulence compared to the 747 which feels pretty solid. I know that flexibility or lack of rigidity is good for but personally I prefer boeing.

Matt, currently Airbus does not have anything equivalent to the Boeing 747. You may be speaking about an A340-600. That has four engines in total, two on each wing, and this version can carry a good amount of passengers. However, it cannot carry more than the 747, at least I don't think so.

Is this what the airplane looked like?

This particular Airbus can take up to 380 passengers, while the Boeing 747 can take 420, more or less.

However, this depends on the configuration of the airline. There is currently a Boeing 777 that flies for the airline ANA, which takes an immense amount of passengers because the airline has configured it that way.

 

[Michael]

One thing that amazes me is the fact that Airbus' are flown by a joyce stick while the Boeings are flown with a steering column of sorts. Take a look at the cockpit of a Boeing 777 and an Airbus A340-500


Boeing 777

Airbus A340-500

To me this is very interesting. I for one think that the Boeing system is more efficient and gives the pilot more control, however, based on what Airbus says it is just as comfortable or even better for pilots. The thing that gets me is that if the co-pilot is used to the joyce stick being on his right, then when he gets promoted to captain it is going to be on his left, since the captain sits on the left side of the aircraft while the first officer sits on the right.

 

[Bozzor]

Ah, BMWFREAK, you may wish to check out my little blog...

http://borys.newsvine.com

I think you'll like the aviation coverage...

 

[Michael]

Ah, BMWFREAK, you may wish to check out my little blog...

http://borys.newsvine.com

I think you'll like the aviation coverage...

Wow Boz you really have an immense amount of coverage on your blog. Do you allow for people to post and/or respond to articles?

I think the aviation industry is such an interesting industry to look at. Jobs there flourish yet dissapear. It is truly a very remarkable industry, which I hope to be working in one day.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Hey BMWFREAK... yeah, it took me a while. Sorry.

What I think is so interesting about this is the fact that these manufacturers can play with numbers so much. You see, car manufacturers don’t do these things. Of course the market is different and the prices are set and that is the end of story, with of course some exceptions i.e, employee discount, etc. However, Airbus and Boeing must go through hard times where discounts and packages are essential to them selling. For example, I am sure that when the A380 was offered there were no discounts, maybe slightly, but the plane was going to be a hot hot plane and would benefit those who were interested in it tremendously. With that said, it is interesting to see how things have turned out.

Yeh, I share the same point of view. As I read more and more about the aviation industry I was suprised at how much pull/influence the airlines have over the 2 main aircraft manufacturers. You'd think with only 2 main manufacturers, both Boeing and Airbus would hold all the cards. The studies I've done, it says that a monopoly or duopoly would see customers suffer because the 2 companies have little competitive pressure to produce superior products over the other. Weird how airlines pull the strings in this industry though....and the clearest examples of this are scenarios such as the original A350 which was shot down by the airlines.
But when you think about it more, you come to the realisation that the aviation industry, much like many other industries has transformed from:

- making a product which you think the customer wants, and then aggressively selling your product's benefits..

...to:

- understanding what your customer wants, and then building a product to meet those needs.

You see what Boeing did with the 777. Spending a lot of time talking with airlines, understanding their needs, understanding aircraft issues, and so on...and then bringing it all together to create a very successful family of aircraft.

As for the A380... I'm guessing the launch customer (SIA) would have got some form of discount.. but I totally understand your point about Airbus not needing to offer any launch-customer discount due to the inevitable demand for such an aircraft. I think now with the additional A350XWB and A333 orders, SIA may have got some discount from Airbus. Or an other arguement is that any compensation for A380 delays was delivered in the form discounts. I don't really know.. that's just my train of thought.

-

Here's the link to OFFICIAL A350XWB-900 stats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350

Just note that the A350-800 and -1000 stats are for the 'older' A350 aircraft. Also, the 787-10 stats aren't official as the aircraft has not been officially announced by Boeing..and I'm guessing Boeing will slightly improve the 787-10 inlight of the 'newer' A350 family.

Tell me what you think..and tell me which stats you find interesting. .. We'll discuss from there on.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

As for the A346, there have been continual complaints about its structural rigidity. It's too long for its own good to be honest. Airbus went far enough stretching the A300 fuselage to the A340-500's length, but going that additional stretch to the -600 hasn't really paid off. I guess to be fair to Airbus, the introduction of the 773ER really put a halt to any momentum the A346 had because the 773ER was simply the much better aircraft in most (if not all) facets. Simple example, Emirated trying to cancel its order for 20 A346's in favour of 20 773ER's. And there can be no arguement about Emirates and any bias towards the 777 because Emirates does have A345's in its fleet.

 

[Michael]

Here's the link to OFFICIAL A350XWB-900 stats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350

Just note that the A350-800 and -1000 stats are for the 'older' A350 aircraft. Also, the 787-10 stats aren't official as the aircraft has not been officially announced by Boeing..and I'm guessing Boeing will slightly improve the 787-10 inlight of the 'newer' A350 family.

Tell me what you think..and tell me which stats you find interesting. .. We'll discuss from there on.

This is very interesting. The fact that you mention that the 787 is not official is interesting. Sometimes we go about reading articles in the aviation industry thinking that they are official when quite frankly they are not. Let me look at it.

 

[Michael]

As for the A346, there have been continual complaints about its structural rigidity. It's too long for its own good to be honest. Airbus went far enough stretching the A300 fuselage to the A340-500's length, but going that additional stretch to the -600 hasn't really paid off. I guess to be fair to Airbus, the introduction of the 773ER really put a halt to any momentum the A346 had because the 773ER was simply the much better aircraft in most (if not all) facets. Simple example, Emirated trying to cancel its order for 20 A346's in favour of 20 773ER's. And there can be no arguement about Emirates and any bias towards the 777 because Emirates does have A345's in its fleet.

BeeMerBoi, I did not know any of this, but is definitely makes sense. Thanks

 

[SDNR]

Ah, BMWFREAK, you may wish to check out my little blog...

http://borys.newsvine.com

I think you'll like the aviation coverage...

Great blog Bozzer! ......I will visit it regularly.

Somebody give this man his own newspaper column