Gone off track 9/11 General debate spinoff

[donkeykong]

The difference with COVID-19 is that we don't need to establish the facts as they're already widely accepted.

In anything, if there are WIDELY ACCEPTED facts, then it's up to the minority to provide evidence to the contrary.

It's like a flat-Earther saying "prove the Earth is round". No, you prove the Earth is flat, because the vast majority of people accept the Earth isn't flat.

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy,simply because the consensus believes something to be true,no matter how overwhelming that consensus may be,does not make it so. No wonder you hold such a daft view of things.

Since we're on the topic of consensus. Science is not or never was about consensus,the bedrock behind real science is healthy skepticism. Scientific knowledge is provisional,tentative at best. Contingent upon new and emerging data. With out skepticism how can old assertions be challenged and the progression of science take place?

"Virtually no training"? The lead hijackers all had extensive flying training. Mohammed Atta even had a commercial pilot's license. Only one hijacker in each group had to know how to fly an aircraft - the rest just had to make sure the passengers kept away from the cockpit. In fact, it's widely believed that the "non-pilot" hijackers didn't realise they were on a suicide mission.

"Extensive"here is the school they received training at,they would disagree with your description of their skill set. That's with a 25 foot cesna,not a Boeing 757 and 767.
The pilot who supposedly hit the Pentagon,the most spectacular aerial assault ever,shit was bananas. Failed his training,welp. I'm sure you believe building 7's free fall demolition style into it's own footprint was just the way the 911 commission report called it too,huh? This is my last reply on the matter. I could care less what you believe.


Hijack pilots showed average skills, say their instructors

Just ‘Average’ Students
Atta arrived at Huffman with a private pilot certificate as prerequisites for the commercial single- and multi-engine courses. Al-Shehhi had no previous training and enrolled in the ab initio program. Dekkers said both students were hard and serious workers, arriving for instruction on July 3 last year and for the most part continuously training until that December 21.

“They both left just after New Years this year,” he said. “As students go, they were both average in their exams and flying. Nothing particularly wrong, but not excellent either."

Hijack pilots showed average skills, say their instructors | AIN

“To be honest, I had a problem with Atta the first time I talked to him.

www.ainonline.com

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Flight trainer flunked 2 9/11 hijackers

Flight trainer flunked 2 9/11 hijackers

Well, I'm not going to answer that. What I will say is that, in a thread where you're trying to convince people that COVID-19 is fake, it's probably not a good idea to voice your 9/11 conspiracy theories too, especially when they fall down at the slightest scrutiny.

Me not accepting something for lack of evidence is not nearly the same as calling something fake. You're the one conflating the two,wrongfully so.
You believe in something off of faith,not fact. Just because I don't comport to your usual confirmation bias,doesn't mean what you say is fact.
You can't even refute the claims I've made even,so you're no position to state "facts".

I haven't proposed any conspiracy theories over 9/11,you did. Are you another one who doesn't understand what conspiracy theory means?

 

[David Brent]

Some impressive flying skills for those with virtually no training.

"Extensive"here is the school they received training at,they would disagree with your description of their skill set. That's with a 25 foot cesna,not a Boeing 757 and 767.

Originally you said they had "virtually no training". Now you're providing me with evidence of them actually undertaking training for six months, thus contradicting what you said a few hours ago?

Hijack pilots showed average skills, say their instructors

Just ‘Average’ Students
Atta arrived at Huffman with a private pilot certificate as prerequisites for the commercial single- and multi-engine courses. Al-Shehhi had no previous training and enrolled in the ab initio program. Dekkers said both students were hard and serious workers, arriving for instruction on July 3 last year and for the most part continuously training until that December 21.

“They both left just after New Years this year,” he said. “As students go, they were both average in their exams and flying. Nothing particularly wrong, but not excellent either."

I don't know how this helps your point at all. The guy is saying they were acceptable pilots. In a group, there were as many pilots below their abilities as there were above their abilities. And I've already explained to you that they didn't need to show particularly good skills at being a pilot. If anything they were overskilled for the mission they were on.


Seriously, you're absolutely bonkers.

 

[donkeykong]

Originally you said they had "virtually no training". Now you're providing me with evidence of them actually undertaking training for six months, thus contradicting what you said a few hours ago?

Damn,you got me! Six months of training with a censa and 2 of them even failed their training,they were amazing pilots no doubt. "Over skilled" in fact. The pilot who hit the Pentagon especially,he was a prodigy first time out. Fast forward to about an 1hr it's worth the laugh,I promise.

September 11 -- The New Pearl Harbor (FULL)

September 11 -- The New Pearl HarborFor Educational Purposes Only - Producer Grants Permission To Distribute Freely"September 11 - The New Pearl Harbor" is a...

www.youtube.com

I don't know how this helps your point at all. The guy is saying they were acceptable pilots. In a group, there were as many pilots below their abilities as there were above their abilities. And I've already explained to you that they didn't need to show particularly good skills at being a pilot. If anything they were overskilled for the mission they were on.


Seriously, you're absolutely bonkers.

What an odd take of things,yet I'm bonkers? The owner of the flight school and his staff said they didn't think it was possible based on their training and skill set.
But that doesn't even begin to explain the other wildly fantastical explanations given on the attacks. This is not the thread for 9/11 and frankly,I don't care what you think on the matter. You do however remind me of the ending of this video. lol

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

I just find it hilarious how you avoided everything else I said,were I pointed the flaw in your position.

 

[David Brent]

I’m not avoiding anything. It’s just pointless even responding to someone who doesn’t even accept basic facts. You initially claimed the hijackers had virtually no experience in flying, yet it’s public knowledge that Mohammed Atta had a CPL (Commercial Pilots License). That’s already enough to be allowed to fly people for hire and reward, and it’s not a basic qualification.

It’s perfectly feasible for the 9/11 hijackers to build-up enough skills in a relatively short space of time to fly the aircraft into various buildings. Anybody with a rudimentary knowledge of flying could do this, but these pilots had actually spent six months at flight school and also paid for time in jet simulators. I’m a qualified pilot, I’ve flown large jets while in the Royal Air Force. The 767s and 757s that were crashed that day are benign and not particularly tricky to fly. The hardest thing to adapt to when flying a swept wing aircraft is the way you pick up airspeed when dropping the nose. Also it can be a challenge to land if you don’t have a lot of experience. This was not an issue for the hijackers as landing was never part of the plan. Just because you’ve searched YouTube to find a video where, for whatever reason, someone is saying it wouldn’t be possible, it doesn’t make it true. Speak to 100 pilots and 99 will say what happened was certainly possible.

You have absolutely no expertise in what you are talking about, and it shows.

You’re clearly an utterly deluded individual. I don’t ever remember you acting like this before, so if you’re having some kind of breakdown then I genuinely hope you get whatever help you need.

 

[David Brent]

Some impressive flying skills for those with virtually no training.

I think it's important to clarify to anybody reading this (other than donkeykong) what flying training the hijackers had (that is, the hijackers whose role it was to fly the aircraft).

Let's see what "virtually no training" looks like:


Mohamed Atta (AA11, Boston to Los Angeles, crashed into the WTC North Tower)

• Began flight training in July 2000 in Florida with two other hijackers, where he flew almost every day.
• In September he gained his Private Pilot's License (PPL).
• In November gained his Instrument Rating, something which requires many hours of flying and study.
• In December he gained his Commercial Pilot's License (CPL) from the FAA, a major license which requires you to prove you're competent enough to fly professionally.
• Paid for many hours in jet simulators, such as the Boeing 727, Boeing 767 from approved flying academies.

Marwan al-Shehhi (UA175, Boston to Los Angeles, crashed into the WTC South Tower)

• This mirrors Mohamed Atta, as they trained together in Florida.
• Gained his Commercial Pilot's License (CPL) in December 2000.

Ziad Jarrah (UA93, Newark to San Francisco, crashed in rural Pennsylvania)

• This also mirrors Mohamed Atta, as Jarrah trained with him and al-Shehhi in Florida for six months in 2000.
• Gained his Commercial Pilot's License (CPL) in January 2001.

Hani Hanjour (AA77, Washington Dulles to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon)

• Believed to have been training to genuinely become an airline pilot before becoming radicalised.
• Obtained his FAA issued Commercial Pilot's License (CPL) in April 1999.
• Trained in CRM (Cockpit Resource Management) in Arizona.
• February 2001, undertook advanced simulator training in Mesa, Arizona.

I'm not interested in getting into a further discussion about this. I just want anybody else reading this to see the facts and to counter the complete fabrication that donkeykong is posting.

 

[donkeykong]

@donkeykong - I am not here to kiss anyone's behind, especially not David Brent and associates'. But, please know that you are dealing with literally an aviation expert which I can attest to from exposure outside of this forum. I kindly suggest that you drop the off-topic 9/11 aviator's discussion and re-immerse yourself in the coronavirus conversation. For what it's worth.

Read my post,I was clear about not wanting to have this convo with him.

 

[donkeykong]

I’m not avoiding anything. It’s just pointless even responding to someone who doesn’t even accept basic facts. You initially claimed the hijackers had virtually no experience in flying, yet it’s public knowledge that Mohammed Atta had a CPL (Commercial Pilots License). That’s already enough to be allowed to fly people for hire and reward, and it’s not a basic qualification.

It’s perfectly feasible for the 9/11 hijackers to build-up enough skills in a relatively short space of time to fly the aircraft into various buildings. Anybody with a rudimentary knowledge of flying could do this, but these pilots had actually spent six months at flight school and also paid for time in jet simulators. I’m a qualified pilot, I’ve flown large jets while in the Royal Air Force. The 767s and 757s that were crashed that day are benign and not particularly tricky to fly. The hardest thing to adapt to when flying a swept wing aircraft is the way you pick up airspeed when dropping the nose. Also it can be a challenge to land if you don’t have a lot of experience. This was not an issue for the hijackers as landing was never part of the plan. Just because you’ve searched YouTube to find a video where, for whatever reason, someone is saying it wouldn’t be possible, it doesn’t make it true. Speak to 100 pilots and 99 will say what happened was certainly possible.

You have absolutely no expertise in what you are talking about, and it shows.

You’re clearly an utterly deluded individual. I don’t ever remember you acting like this before, so if you’re having some kind of breakdown then I genuinely hope you get whatever help you need.

I don't care what you think about 9/11,Betty. You want to believe the official narrative,cool. If you believe an airplane hit the Pentagon that day,cool. Hilarious still,but cool. The pilots in the video I provided you with,whole hardheartedly disagree with your perspective. That still doesn't even come close to explaining all of the other anomalies surrounding the events of that morning and the repercussions that followed. I lived it,all the candle vigils,the orange alerts,catching the subway with military and FBI everywhere. GTFOH with your bullshit.

"Breakdown" and "deluded" lol,thinking for myself doesn't make me that. I don't need your pretend pity,I simply do not accept what you do. You're having a hard time reconciling that people think differently than you. You've thrown temper tantrums here consistently for over a decade now,and yet I'm the one who's supposed to be having psychological issues? Too rich! This is about coronavirus right,when it came to that,you completely avoided everything else I said,I wonder why?

 

[J.E]

I will probably be lambasted for what I'm going to say now, but I think they (U.S government, NYC city hall or whatever) should have built two new WTC towers to properly honour the victims of that coward attack instead of just two holes in the floor.

 

[donkeykong]

I will probably be lambasted for what I'm going to say now, but I think they (U.S government, NYC city hall or whatever) should have built two new WTC towers to properly honour the victims of that coward attack instead of just two holes in the floor.

They built the Freedom Tower in it's place. I wouldn't suggest going to NYC at this moment. Definitely worth checking out eventually however.

 

[David Brent]

The pilots in the video I provided you with,whole hardheartedly disagree with your perspective.

But at the same time YOU ignore the literally thousands and thousands of pilots who accept the course of events happened as they are reported to have happened.

That still doesn't even come close to explaining all of the other anomalies surrounding the events of that morning and the repercussions that followed.

Every single programme, video, or written piece claiming their are "anomalies" can easily be dismissed by even the most casual observer. Your claim that the hijackers had "virtually no training" was quickly demonstarted to be utterly false, because it's known they had EXTENSIVE training. This applies to every single example of an "anomily" I've heard about 9/11.

GTFOH with your bullshit.

The person claiming 9/11 is a hoax is saying I'm talking BS.

This is about coronavirus right,when it came to that,you completely avoided everything else I said,I wonder why?

I've already explained why. It's because it's completely futile arguing with somebody who is not burdened by facts. Your views on 9/11 and your willfull ignorance of even the most basic knowledge about the events demonstrates that you are seriously deluded.

Now, this really is the last contribution I'll make to any discussion with you, because starved of oxygen, you're just a nutjob ranting on the internet. By getting into a debate with you it gives your position more credibility, even if it's just a modicum amount.

 

[David Brent]

I will probably be lambasted for what I'm going to say now, but I think they (U.S government, NYC city hall or whatever) should have built two new WTC towers to properly honour the victims of that coward attack instead of just two holes in the floor.

I've visited the site several times, and it's quite moving. That is until you see someone ruining it by taking a selfie.

 

[donkeykong]

But at the same time YOU ignore the literally thousands and thousands of pilots who accept the course of events happened as they are reported to have happened.

I haven't ignored nothing,I don't care about having 9/11 conversation with you. Why do you struggle?

Every single programme, video, or written piece claiming their are "anomalies" can easily be dismissed by even the most casual observer. Your claim that the hijackers had "virtually no training" was quickly demonstarted to be utterly false, because it's known they had EXTENSIVE training. This applies to every single example of an "anomily" I've heard about 9/11.

This is a complete crock of shit,I'm not sure you even believe it.

The person claiming 9/11 is a hoax is saying I'm talking BS

Point out where I said it was "HOAX"

I've already explained why. It's because it's completely futile arguing with somebody who is not burdened by facts. Your views on 9/11 and your willfull ignorance of even the most basic knowledge about the events demonstrates that you are seriously deluded.

Now, this really is the last contribution I'll make to any discussion with you, because starved of oxygen, you're just a nutjob ranting on the internet. By getting into a debate with you it gives your position more credibility, even if it's just a modicum amount.

This is bullshit at it's finest. You keep dodging the topic at hand "coronavirus". Cause you have no leg to stand on. I don't accept the official 9/11 narrative,not by a long shot. Merely questioning events of course makes me crazy in your eyes,of course it does. Until you can disprove all of the anomalies that transpired on that faithful day the contradictory reports and the eye witness testimony given,I'm going to assume you're full of shit. I'll leave this for you again,cause the ending so damn fitting to this discussion. HAHA!

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Matski]

I will probably be lambasted for what I'm going to say now, but I think they (U.S government, NYC city hall or whatever) should have built two new WTC towers to properly honour the victims of that coward attack instead of just two holes in the floor.

I quite like the memorials they've built, they're a bit different, makes you think more than just another skyscraper on the skyline would. Two more towers would simply be a collection of businesses in (what I assume is) expensive office space - I don't see how that really honours anybody to be honest. Neither 1WTC nor the museum were fully completed the last time I visited NYC though.

 

[WBarnes]

I suggest people watch The Looming Tower, it's a great mini-series but also explains the real conspiracy, which is that known terrorists were allowed free roam without being snatched up, simply to avoid pissing off Saudi Arabia, which is seen as a crucial geopolitical ally. The communications wall and mistrust between the CIA and FBI is well portrayed. The FBI wanting to arrest terrorists, with the CIA being more focused on the geopolitical picture.

 

[manuelf]

Cool. A 9/11 discussion board.
Ok, I'm coming out: I also do not believe in the official story/narrative. Seems, that this sceptisism makes me a Conspiracist. But you know what - I don't care. There are certain terms currently used so inflationary in debates (Conspiracist being one of them), that they are devalued anyhow.

I was very interessted for years in this topic. Read lots about it. Some of the scientific articles provided over the years did convince me more, that we had to deal with controlled detonations for wtc 1/2/7, than the NIST texts/explanations.

Now this tragedy has happened almost 20 years ago, therefore I am no longer so dogged to convince others of my opinion

I just kept a natural suspicion regarding deeply penetrating historical moments like WW1/WW2, Vietnam, 9/11 ...
all of those incidents meant partially new world orders and diversion of financial flows worth billions. Imho these things do not happen by one or more coincidence, but are more controlled.... and afterwards always "the winner" writes the history books and defines "what is the truth".

 

[David Brent]

One of the downsides of the internet/social media, is that it can give validation to what would otherwise have been crazy ideas. You think the Earth is flat? Great, because there are 100,000 other people on the internet who think it is too, and they're just a mouse-click away. You don't sound so crazy with 100,000 people agreeing with you.

It's healthy to not believe everything you're told. What ISN'T healthy is when you ignore ACTUAL HARD FACTS because they don't suit your narrative.

 

[donkeykong]

What facts? You've only provided a conspiracy theory for 9/11. Fact is,Hani Hanjour who made the deathifying feat of crashing into the pentagon was described as a terrible pilot. Who wasn't even allowed a solo flight for how bad he was. Even if the alleged hijackers where competent enough to pull it off,how do you know it was them? Why, cause the media and government officials reported it that way? You or I don't have those "FACTS" you are simply talking out your ass. How many war simulations were taking place at the very same time,Global Guardian,Operation Tripod etc... You don't have a clue what went down that day,you're merely regurgitating someone else's narrative as "FACT". How many whistle blowers have come out over the years saying the official report is categorically false?

A Trainee Noted for Incompetence

''I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.''

A Trainee Noted for Incompetence (Published 2002)

Hani Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted airliner that crashed into Pentagon on Sept 11, was reported to Federal Aviation Administration in Feb 2001 after instructors at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Phoenix found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so...

www.nytimes.com

 

[David Brent]

Fact is,Hani Hanjour who made the deathifying feat of crashing into the pentagon was described as a terrible pilot. Who wasn't even allowed a solo flight for how bad he was. Even if the alleged hijackers where competent enough to pull it off,how do you know it was them? Why, cause the media and government officials reported it that way? You or I don't have those "FACTS" you are simply talking out your ass. How many war simulations were taking place at the very same time,Global Guardian,Operation Tripod etc... You don't have a clue what went down that day,you're merely regurgitating someone else's narrative as "FACT". How many whistle blowers have come out over the years saying the official report is categorically false?

A Trainee Noted for Incompetence

''I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.''

A Trainee Noted for Incompetence (Published 2002)

Hani Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted airliner that crashed into Pentagon on Sept 11, was reported to Federal Aviation Administration in Feb 2001 after instructors at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Phoenix found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so...

www.nytimes.com

Talk about reading an article and interpreting it to suit your narrative. Nothing at all in that article casts doubt on whether Hanjour was at the controls of AA77. It's just saying he was a particularly poor pilot, which in the context of post 9/11, it's quite interesting.

You keep talking as if flying an aircraft into a large building is difficult. It's not. For a complete novice? Maybe. For someone who has extensive flying training, a commercial pilot's license, and many hours training in a simulator? Absolutely not. Not even for someone who was described as "poor".

The challenging part of being a commercial pilot is demonstrating your ability to perform a non-precision approach down to minimums, then performing a go-around whilst experiencing an engine failure, for example.

The comment "I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon", isn't meant to cast doubt on whether it happened, but rather it's an exaggerated comment on how bad he really was as a pilot. In other words, "he was so bad that even something as simple as THAT surprises me".

Show me a quote from the "former employee" where they say "I don't believe Hanjour flew the aircraft into the Pentagon".


Don't take my word for it. If he's willing to enter this batshit crazy hornet's nest, @LaArtist will confirm everything I've said.



BUT, if for one moment we take your theory to the next stage, donkeykong. How did the aircraft hit the WTC and Pentagon? Who flew them into the buildings?

 

[WBarnes]

I would say that flying a commercial airliner into a building that large is only one step of complexity above flying it into the ground. I doubt you would even need flight school for it. JFC, I flew an F-15 upside under a small bridge at 700+kts on DCS.

 

[David Brent]

I would say that flying a commercial airliner into a building that large is only one step of complexity above flying it into the ground. I doubt you would even need flight school for it.

Exactly.

A large jet obeys the same laws of physics as a single-engine piston aircraft. The basic controls are in the same place and have the same effect. Even the basic instruments (altimeter, airspeed etc.) are arranged in the same position in EVERY aircraft. The tricky part in transitioning to a swept-wing jet is the relationship between airspeed and pitch. Also the controls have a lot more lag on an airliner than on a PA-28 or Cessna 150, and the engines are much slower to spool up and give you thrust. So you have to be a lot further "ahead" of the aircraft in an airliner than a small piston-engined aircraft. When needing to operate an airliner safely and in commercial service, such as performing instrument approaches, these handling skills take a lot of practice to get right, and indeed not everybody can do it. When your aim is to smash the aircraft into a building, these skills don't need to be particularly developed, and it's certainly nothing that can't be learned after a couple of hours in a flight sim, which is what the hijackers did.