2012 Audi A6 versus BMW 535i review: And the best luxury sedan is...

[Merc1]

OK I don't think there would be any new customer base that demands "heaviness" at least.

No offense at all, i'm a BMW fanboy myself and I'd still go for the F10 if I had a choice but you know, looking at a BMW beaten by an Audi in terms of weight, driving pleasure, speed, is rather insulting.

THere isn't much point defending, the F10 is an excellent car but simply too heavy. Just think about it, a while ago we had Z4M's going against Porsches and now we have a 5series being more sluggish (despite excellent) against an Audi A6. Glad the M3 is still the overall king, would really be sad to see one day when a C class is better than the 3series.

Bingo. A reality post.

I would take the 5er too, cause I'm not a canyon carver everyday and I like the exterior design better, and the interior while not as stylish as the Audi does feel pretty good. M5 please, problem solved.


M

 

[Deckhook]

Disagree, I think they have. They introduced a heavier, slower apparently not as good to drive car to the market. I haven't driven the 5er yet to know, just going by the reviews. BMW once stood for lightweight peformance and precise dynamics, and EnI is telling us that this isn't possible anymore because the customer base has changed? I ain't buying it, is specious nonsense. BMW cheaped out by trying to put the 5 on the 7 chassis and its way too heavy and compromised for the segment, at least for the enthusiasts. Thats the bottom line here. Is it a fine car otherwise, yes..its gorgeous...I am considering an M5 myself, but they don't own the sport aspect of this segment anymore. Plain and simple, and we can ramble on about the reasons all day long, but there it is.


M

Before the new A6 came out who was the segment leader the one winning all the tests, that was the F10 so they didn't lose the plot at all it's just that Audi did the unthinkable in making a better car. And I too will be considering the M5 next but after trying the A6 I will need to drive it first and not order it based on the past because the A6 in my mind is the sweeter drive of the two. It's why I'm considering a S6 for the first time ever.

 

[Merc1]

Before the new A6 came out who was the segment leader the one winning all the tests, that was the F10 so they didn't lose the plot at all it's just that Audi did the unthinkable in making a better car. And I too will be considering the M5 next but after trying the A6 I will need to drive it first and not order it based on the past because the A6 in my mind is the sweeter drive of the two. It's why I'm considering a S6 for the first time ever.

LOL....that means they lost the plot dude. They're no longer the default winner in this segment. Thats what losing the plot means. The minute they decided on making a baby 7 out of the 5, they lost the plot. If Audi can bring more power, better dynamics and AWD and weigh less than a RWD BMW there is a problem in Munich. Did BMW think Audi was kidding about beating them, or that they would just lazily bring out a heavier car than before like BMW did?

For the record the pevious 5-Series DID NOT win every time either. It was not the default class leader like the 1997-2003 5-Series was.

The 7 has been taking it on the chin also in dynamics. BMW has lost their dynamic edge, their whole angle/plot. Not sure why that is so hard to see/grasp.


M

 

[Sunny]

If Audi is building a sportier car then BMW's goose is cooked with certain buyers.


M

This!

And also lot of people seems to be assuming Audi is somehow less comfortable than the Bimmer. Just cause it is sportier, doesn't mean that. At least I haven't read that anywhere. It is pretty obvious to me BMW targeted the car at E and I think it beats that car pretty much convincingly, but didn't expect the Audi to one up it.

 

[EnI]

Marcus ... you're so easy on words. You really are.

Losing plot?

I've explained to you .. .but if you don't want to except the explanation, it's your problem. What can I do? Shoot you with truth gun?

Audi has an advantage of being a part of VAG concern (and its purchasing power) - therefore they can use alu & be highly profitable. To achieve same profits, BMW & MB have to use cheaper materials. Or use alu like eg. Jaguar & make tiny profits or even loss - but that would certainly make investors happy, don't you think?

IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!

Btw, bmwownage, I'm not saying people demand less sportiness - they demand MORE COMFORT. But at a certain price (offering certain tech & materials) sportiness has to be compensated for comfort.

Regarding BMW image "What else they can offer then driving pleasure?" Do they not offering it? Only the best or nothing? Look at eg. A8 vs 7er ... For the second generation A8 is more agile car to drive compared to 7er ... and, surprise: people still buy 7er, and think it's sporty enough for them. Sure some buyers leave BMW for Audi. Some leave MB for BMW. Some Audi for MB etc. Yes, customer base structure changes.

You guys childishly expect a company or a product is doomed if it's not the best of the best. That's a very simple thinking! Too simple.

Losing plot would mean people would deserting BMW for Audi in enormous numbers. But they don't. Why people buy the car? Because they like it - they like the styling, they like the ride, they like the whatever. Even if the car is not best on paper, or winner of duels.

Why do people then buy different brands? Why buying Infiniti or acura? Why buying Lexus? Why BMW or Audi? Why even MB? If there is a car out there that is better?

Perhaps some BMW fans are sad because some cars become sportier than BMW ... Many journalists are sad because of that. But still ... over a million people per year buy a BMW. Why would they if there is Audi available - offering better products? Are you saying all those people are what ... stupid? ...Without a clue? ... Without a taste? ... Easy to satisfy? ... Not demanding enough? ... Ready to settle for second best? Oh, c'mon.

Automotive business it's not that simple ... And IMO at least a car dealer should have known that!

 

[Merc1]

Eni see how your posts keep getting long and longer and yet everyone else see's the truth here but you?

Btw, bmwownage, I'm not saying people demand less sportiness - they demand MORE COMFORT. But at a certain price (offering certain tech & materials) sportiness has to be compensated for comfort.

This is just a big fat excuse. See Sunny's post? Yet BMW was able to do both before. Now they can't? Cry me a damn river.

You guys childishly expect a company or a product is doomed if it's not the best of the best. That's a very simple thinking! Too simple.

Yet this is exactly what you're preaching about Mercedes-Benz in the other thread, just beause they aren't the best selling or most profitable.


You have spun yourself into a mass of your own confusion...lol. Hilarious.


Mind this viewers I'm a big fan of current BMWs, I just don't drink the Koolaide. M5 or 650i M/Pack would/will suite me fine.


M

 

[Mr Robert]

Well, personally, I'd go for the A6 in this segment today. I mean, there's really nothing wrong with it anymore. Sure, the looks are not for everyone but I think it is the size that fits the "use-them-everywhere" design cues and it is light, engaging and, from what I understand, quite efficient.

So. it seems like the people over at Audi are doing both what they and what BMW used to do.

 

[Deckhook]

Before the new A6 came out who was the segment leader the one winning all the tests, that was the F10 so they didn't lose the plot at all it's just that Audi did the unthinkable in making a better car.

This!

And also lot of people seems to be assuming Audi is somehow less comfortable than the Bimmer. Just cause it is sportier, doesn't mean that. At least I haven't read that anywhere. It is pretty obvious to me BMW targeted the car at E and I think it beats that car pretty much convincingly, but didn't expect the Audi to one up it.

What these two guys said.

Oh I didn't realise that one of them was me.

 

[EnI]

This is just a big fat excuse. See Sunny's post? Yet BMW was able to do both before. Now they can't? Cry me a damn river.

Not for the same money as Audi can do it. Read my posts again. That's the whole point. Audi sure raises the bar. Because they can afford to do it. Once BMW could do it, today some (eg. Audi) can do it better for the same money (because they get more for the same money - due to economies of scale - being a part of VAG concern).

Regarding MB ... that's completely different story. Nothing to do with products characters ... more with business plans regarding expansion plans .. .and plans refocusing.

How can I discuss with someone who doesn't read the posts???

 

[Merc1]

Perhaps some BMW fans are sad because some cars become sportier than BMW ... Many journalists are sad because of that. But still ... over a million people per year buy a BMW. Why would they if there is Audi available - offering better products? Are you saying all those people are what ... stupid? ...Without a clue? ... Without a taste? ... Easy to satisfy? ... Not demanding enough? ... Ready to settle for second best? Oh, c'mon.

For the record EnI I do understand that this is business and that the business' priority to make money, but what I'm (and I think others) are saying is that what BMW so great is being sacrificed in order to make more money. At what point do these sacrifices hurt the business, i.e. less sales and less brand cachet? At that point what will be the theme then? What will be the draw for BMW? I'm a huge fan of the current BMWs, I think they're some of the best looking cars on the road and will likely purchase one. I've never owned a BMW before, so I'm not of the camp that is up in arms about the lastest generation of BMWs becoming softer: Z4, 7-Series, 5-Series etc, so my problem is that, its the rhetoric...it no longer matches the product on sale. Take away the nonsense, which you and some others have had no choice but to do since BMW has changed their philosophy on so many things in the last few years...like the M brand, and you have a stellar brand, but this driving feedback and involvment nonsense is rapidly being erased.

You're not going to convince me that BMW can't build a lightweight sedan in the E/5/A6 arena, nor will I buy that dynamics have to be sacraficed for dynamics if others are able to combine the two. You're trying to excuse away the fact that BMW is slipping and/or giving up on what made them great. Sure people (like me) still want one, but what is my edge going to be about my car choice at the dinner table..lol? Kidding, but not really.


All of this reminds me of what VW has done with the Jetta. The enthusiasts weren't buying enough of them, now that they've watered it down, way down....its selling faster than hotcakes. Surely BMW isn't going this route I know, but what you're saying is sort of similar. Chasing sales and profits by giving up the soul.


M

 

[Merc1]

Not for the same money as Audi can do it. Read my posts again. That's the whole point. Audi sure raises the bar. Because they can afford to do it. Once BMW could do it, today some (eg. Audi) can do it better for the same money (because they get more for the same money - due to economies of scale - being a part of VAG concern).

Regarding MB ... that's completely different story. Nothing to do with products characters ... more with business plans regarding expansion plans .. .and plans refocusing.

How can I discuss with someone who doesn't read the posts???

I have read it, over and over....what I'm asking you is how do they turn it around? Surely the mighty BMW isn't going to just give up? Heck no. Sure VW/Audi can do it, BMW better figure out a way to "do it" also. Saying why VW/Audi can do what they do over and over still doesn't excuse BMW or Mercedes for that matter. Quit crying about it and work on the solution. Hell if BMW can build a superior car, charging more for it isn't a problem. Mercedes and BMW both did it for years and years, when they both clearly built superior cars, so if it costs BMW more to do what Audi is doing charge a little bit more for the superior vehicle. Audi's prices has steadly beeing rising to equal BMW and Mercedes over the years in certain segments for a reason.


M

 

[Deckhook]

One of the things about that review that really got me rolling with laughter was how they thought the 5 looked like the 3, like come on it's the spit of the 7 and if anything I think the A6 has more of a look of A4 than the other way round which is one of things I like about it, it's a big car that kind of looks small and feels it too.

 

[Tarek]

IMO Audi did a great job with the new A6..it is certainly the best A6 to date combining best of both worlds..MB and BMW take note here.

I used to love the F10 more than the A6 at least till i saw a fully loaded A6 3.0 TFSI..and damn it looks really hot and at night it's magnificent..Looks better and more unique than the F10 for sure IMO.

Yes i can't believe i'm saying this but i think i'd take that Audi over E and 5er this time..at least till MB launches the new TT V6 Es.

 

[EnI]

Marcus, what IYO are the factors that define "CAN"?

Regarding "watering down" ... Obviously generally customers don't think that ... since 5er sales are excellent. OK, perhaps in US market for some reasons E-class sales better, but globally (and also eg in home German market) 5er still outsells E-class. And A6 also lags behind ...

Btw, that view of yours "they can build a superior car, and charge it more - what's a biggie" just shows how much you simplify. It's not that simple. All the product planning ... Especially with all the parts sharing, modular platforms etc. It's not all about engineering. It's also much about logistics, finance, purchasing etc. Are you aware how complex automotive industry is today? Obviously not.

I'm saying that Audi has some HUGE advantages over BMW & MB since being a part of VAG (and also some disadvantages - eg. when they have to wait for a common group platform, and not being able to react quicker to the rival's moves). All the know-how within VAG group, all the money power they have, all the production facilities etc ... every part of VAG can benefit from that, and sure Audi do too.

 

[Merc1]

Marcus, what IYO are the factors that define "CAN"?

Regarding "watering down" ... Obviously generally customers don't think that ... since 5er sales are excellent. OK, perhaps in US market for some reasons E-class sales better, but globally (and also eg in home German market) 5er still outsells E-class. And A6 also lags behind ...

That is for BMW to decide. Less weight, better performance and dynamics. How hey do it? Take the 5 (and 6) back to their own platform would be a start. 7-Series is the wrong place to start.

I agree with you about the Jetta. That was my point in mentioning the VW.


M

 

[EnI]

Marcus ...

As you know E69 / E63 5er & 6er have dedicated platform, alu chassis with alu-steel body. This generation has alu- chassis with all-steel body. For mere financial reasons. I still hope they the next platform will bring multi-material frame again which will be lighter.

It's obvious BMW redirected quite some resources to "Project i" - and therefore they had to compensate elsewhere. It's all about priorities. And for the future of BMW AG the Project i is much more essential then one generation of porky 5er (which still sells excellently btw). Money is limited. Be sure VAG with more assets can get much cheaper money (for all the divisions) than BMW which is much smaller company with less assets.

 

[deity]

In a perfect world, any amount of money can be spent developing/engineering a car. They could make the F10 out of carbon-fiber to save weight if they really wanted to. But in reality, VAG is much more powerful than BMW. They have more resources and more people. That's just the bottom line. Does having more resources and people mean a better car? Not necessarily, but it should help.

ALSO in reality, people don't care if their car is the "best". They buy it because they like the design of it. I'm pretty confident that 90% of our decision is based on looks and brand image. I'll be honest- no matter how fast a Corvette is able to lap the Nurburgring, I don't care. I hate the brand, so i'll never get it. But if I use logic and actually think about it, its probably a better buy than something like a C63, which should be considered an inferior car. If I buy a SL65 Black Series, I know its not going to be the fastest car out there. There are many cars that are cheaper, faster, and handle better. But that doesn't always matter. At the end of the day, its all about personal taste. If I hated the design of the A6 (which I don't) I wouldn't give a flying cent about how its destroying the F10.

It is disappointing to see that the F10 is no longer the king when it comes to handling, but I'd still prefer it over the A6. Yes, I've driven both and seen them in real life. Why? I have no clue. It's just like how my friend insists that Android is better than the iPhone. I might agree with that, but there's always more to a product than X>Y.

I'd like to end off saying how much I hate reviews of cars. Like K-A said- am I really going to be having a drag race with the nearest A6? I don't care what HE thinks of it. Anyone that watches reviews should do so purely for entertainment. IMO, it holds no value. If you really want an opinion, use your own. Just drive to the nearest dealership FCOL. At that point, you should know what YOU think of the handling, what YOU think of the interior/exterior, what YOU think about everything you need to know. Why watch someone that's completely different from you..?

 

[Deckhook]

Wow, that was one seriously good post right there. Who gives a flying f*** what someone else thinks, it's YOU that needs to be impressed most of all.

 

[K-A]

Some good posts here.

ENI said "Losing plot would mean people would deserting BMW for Audi in enormous numbers. But they don't. Why people buy the car? Because they like it - they like the styling, they like the ride, they like the whatever. Even if the car is not best on paper, or winner of duels."

This isn't a very accurate way to judge a current car. Frankly, M-B and BMW can release dog poop for 10 years and still sell like hotcakes. As we see, the disaster of M-B's from the mid 90's to mid 2000's has recently JUST started to hit their momentum, while they lose market share to BMW and Audi in the recent years.

The F10 could have come out any which way, and it would have accelerated sales from the E60 (not a big deal, as with population growth, etc., every new car should sell over the old car to even remain stagnant in terms of popularity during its respective time). The F10 is a great car on its own, but the reason for its popularity are credited to its forefathers more-so than it itself, namely the E39, and E60. Hell, the E60 was a stylistic disaster, but that didn't hurt its momentum. Right now BMW can do whatever they want, and they will sell, the Bangle era proved that in terms of style, and this era is proving it in terms of driving dynamics. Both have completely 180'd on enthusiasts who got into BMW for their initial reasons. Oddly and predictably enough, BMW fans are now open about how ugly the "Bangle era" cars were, and how nice the new cars are, while if BMW goes sporty and brings back controversial styling, in 8 years BMW fans will say how "boringly soft and Lexus-like" the F10 era drove, and how "boring and uninspired" it looked.

What BMW does in the next 10 years will determine how they will be perceived in 15-20 years. Right now they are the sporty choice by default, although they aren't offering the sportiest choices anymore. Public perception still paints them as the "Sportiest choice". Audi is just at the introduction level of baking in the fact that they are overtaking BMW in that. What BMW does from here on out will determine whether they can keep to their "throne" - The one that got them to the very place that could sell fugly Bangle-era designs, or supremely heavy, soft Sedans.

With the F10, I see it as unable to claim any type of victory in an absolute sense over its competitors. Instead of being "Leading" in either category (Luxury or Sport), they seem to be the least extreme, and BMW is currently "the best middle ground". It's not as quiet, reliable, logical, or comfortable as the E-Class, and it certainly doesn't drive as smoothly, and it's not as sporty and precise as the A6. It however, is sportier than the E-Class, and more luxurious/comfortable/quiet than the A6.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

I agree with your post KA, but I disagree with the test, which is very rudimentary.