Vs Video: xDrive vs. Quattro

[martinbo]

footie, you're turning an objective, analytical discussion into a platform for your predisposition for Audi propoganda. Please desist from trying to prove your point using a youtube video. Objectively, it means nothing.

All that we're doing here is trying to have a neutral, intelligent discussion about AWD systems - with and without traction control intervention - but you continually insist on turning it into an Audi marketing campaign without ever supplying factual, supporting information. Quattro is quite useless offroad compared to a four-wheel drive system with locking centre differential and low-range transmission. So either stop sprouting superlatives that just end up pissing other members off or face the music when people call you out for your insubstantiated claims. Your choice: you open the door...

Here's the undeniable fact in this demonstration: even with the traction controls disablesd in the BMW, xDrive in this scenario would still pull the X3 through the obstacle because it can (and Torsen can't) transfer all (100%) of the torque to the front axle. If you're clever you'll take this as a technology demonstration and not a product or brand demonstration.

 

[Sunny]

Not frothing at the mouth, just facts that this test is fixed to show something which doesn't happen in the real world. Here's another example of quattro at work in snow which one should think would stop a low riding awd car in it's track.

Seriously footie, give it a f*cking rest. My query had nothing to do if this test is fixed or not. It was a specific question about the working of a torsen diff. If you cannot take the pain to read a post or lack the comprehension to understand it or your brain is too preoccupied with juvenile stuff like "my awd is better than yours", just don't f*cking reply to it, I promise you the sky won't fall on your head or any one at Audi for that matter. It just makes it painful for the rest of us forum users and makes you look pathetic.

 

[footie]

Martin,

Please a few questions.

1/ the original post, what was the intent, was it to suggest that one was superior than the other?

2/ was the promotion video normal conditions or fixed through disabling the ESP to product the desired results?

3/ will any of what was seen in this video translate to the real world?

You are suggesting I am turning this into an Audi propaganda but this entire thread was a BMW one from the start and all I am showing is that real world situation are completely different. Oh and I didn't suggest that quattro was better than one with locked diffs and low ratio drive, but I am suggesting that it is superior off road than soft off roaders.

 

[Human]

^

From my side. I do not understand why nearly every thread has to turn into something sour?

This specific thread has the emphasis in VS.
Thus IMO footie has a good point.

Who am I or do I think I am to give an opinion on this matter? Nobody really, but it's getting tiresome to see threads turn into cock fights thats all!

It's f-ken childish.

 

[martinbo]

Martin,

Please a few questions.

Alright footie, I'll answer you again, but really, does this forum and its community continually have to justify its reaction to your incessant irritations?

1/ the original post, what was the intent, was it to suggest that one was superior than the other?

Who knows, who cares. It got posted, showing a real life fact. It got some appreciation from the BMW fans. Can't argue with the fact as demonstrated now can we? Torsen can't send 100% of torque to the front axle, xDrive can. Fact.

Conjecture:

Pure marketing gimmickry by BMW to promote x-drive as superior but in reality it's not nearly as good as quattro.

Sweeping statement. No facts, no substantiating information. Ignorant. Untrue. Propoganda to what end?

2/ was the promotion video normal conditions or fixed through disabling the ESP to product the desired results?

You didn't know in the beginning and you still don't. Based on my experience I am of the opinion that the traction control systems have been disabled. I said it was a supposition of which I am 95% sure of - but I don't know outright. You just jumped on the bandwagon as usual and turned opinion into your own facts.

3/ will any of what was seen in this video translate to the real world?

Whether it does or doesn't has nothing to do with your unsupported and uncorroborated statements.

You are suggesting I am turning this into an Audi propaganda but this entire thread was a BMW one from the start and all I am showing is that real world situation are completely different. Oh and I didn't suggest that quattro was better than one with locked diffs and low ratio drive, but I am suggesting that it is superior off road than soft off roaders.

Let's look at this statement:

The reality is that in slippery conditions the one system you want to with (all other things equal) is the quattro (torsen). Nothing against the others but they are only playing at offroad.

Not only is this statement gibberish it's also sweeping and ultimately provocative. So in this statement other AWD systems are just pretending to be so (playing at offroad) and quattro is the "system you want".

No I don't. And quattro alone is one of the last systems I want to go offroading with.

Oh but wait, here it comes:

I've used quattro off road and I know full well what it's capable of,

Really? Then you should be telling us how limited it is offroad instead.

given the choice of a Q5 or X3 to take off road well I know which one to pick because one will cope a hell of a lot better than the other. End of story.

The Q5 will cope a "hell of a lot better than the other"? End of Story? B U L L S H I T footie...

That's the purest form of fanboy guesswork I've ever seen.

The point is, you don't change. You never substantiate your arguments with even a semblance of technical comprehension - it's pure paraphrase and zilch else. And then you have the audacity to complain when other members contest you on the issue at hand.

YOU bring it upon yourself, through your actions. Please don't PM me I will just delete your mails.

 

[footie]

Alright footie, I'll answer you again, but really, does this forum and its community continually have to justify its reaction to your incessant irritations?

May I add that you are turning this into a personal thing, something a Mod shouldn't do.

Who knows, who cares. It got posted, showing a real life fact. It got some appreciation from the BMW fans. Can't argue with the fact as demonstrated now can we? Torsen can't send 100% of torque to the front axle, xDrive can. Fact..

Not denying this fact. Though after checking I am definitely sure the ESP has been disabled.

Sweeping statement. No facts, no substantiating information. Ignorant. Untrue. Propoganda to what end?.

Humour me for a moment.

If (which I now know as true) the quattro has had it's ESP disabled to show that without it the system can't transfer all the available torque to the wheels without slip then this is indeed propoganda to show unrealistic conditions.

You didn't know in the beginning and you still don't. Based on my experience I am of the opinion that the traction control systems have been disabled. I said it was a supposition of which I am 95% sure of - but I don't know outright. You just jumped on the bandwagon as usual and turned opinion into your own facts.

Not jumping on a bandwagon, just agreeing with you on this.

So in this statement other AWD systems are just pretending to be so (playing at offroad) and quattro is the "system you want".

Not all other awd systems, Landrover and Toyota Offroaders (Landcruiser, 4runner, Hilux) are of a standard above quattro, but wait they too use the same system add add either/or diff lock, low range transmissions and electronics to boost the systems ability.

No I don't. And quattro alone is one of the last systems I want to go offroading with.

Don't disagree, though I didn't say that, what I said was compared to x-drive I would pick quattro if I were going offroad and had the choice of either the Q5 or X3.

The Q5 will cope a "hell of a lot better than the other"? End of Story? B U L L S H I T footie...

That's the purest form of fanboy guesswork I've ever seen.

Guesswork you say, may I suggest you spend a little time off road to see what these cars are capable of, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results. Though as I said earlier it's more to do with picking the right rubber than anything else and of course a bit of skill in knowing how to work with what you've got.

The point is, you don't change. You never substantiate your arguments with even a semblance of technical comprehension - it's pure paraphrase and zilch else. And then you have the audacity to complain when other members contest you on the issue at hand.

YOU bring it upon yourself, through your actions. Please don't PM me I will just delete your mails.

What's to change, calling a test as fixed and arguing this point by showing real life examples isn't fanboy behaviour. Lets stick with facts, Torsen awd is superior than x-drive (which was the whole point of this thread) because unlike x-drive it doesn't react it's proactive and you know this.

P.S.
Don't worry I won't need to PM you on this, I think you have made your position on everything quite clear.

 

[martinbo]

May I add that you are turning this into a personal thing, something a Mod shouldn't do.

You don't know half of it footie. I'm actually one of the few mods that has stuck up for you in the back office. You bring this upon yourself and on top of it you give us an admin headache. You start an argument with careless, sweeping statements then deal with it. Anyhow pal, it seems to internet personality's reputation precedes itself - this isn't the first and it won't be the last forum that has its issues with you.

If (which I now know as true) the quattro has had it's ESP disabled to show that without it the system can't transfer all the available torque to the wheels without slip then this is indeed propoganda to show unrealistic conditions.

It's a dealer demo - engineered to show prospective customers in real life that xDrive compared with Quattro has the ability to transfer 100% of torque to the front axle. It's a bonafide feature of xDrive not hearsay.

Not all other awd systems, Landrover and Toyota Offroaders (Landcruiser, 4runner, Hilux) are of a standard above quattro, but wait they too use the same system add add either/or diff lock, low range transmissions and electronics to boost the systems ability.

Many cars make use of OEM Torsen differentials but they're not the same as quattro systems like that in the Q5. Get the cutaway diagrams, post them here and we'll talk. It's not as cut and dried as you (once more) claim. Without supporting information (once more).

Don't disagree, though I didn't say that, what I said was compared to x-drive I would pick quattro if I were going offroad and had the choice of either the Q5 or X3.

No, you don't footie. You are claiming that "end of story" quattro is better than xDrive because one will cope a "hell of a lot better than the other". That's your claim and not a fact.

Guesswork you say, may I suggest you spend a little time off road to see what these cars are capable of, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results. Though as I said earlier it's more to do with picking the right rubber than anything else and of course a bit of skill in knowing how to work with what you've got.

I live in Africa. I am an off-road instructor. I have driven Land Cruisers in the bushveld, Land Rovers in Mozambique, VW Touaregs on off-road courses and yes, spent countless hours teaching people how to get the most out of their soft-roaders in off-road scenarios. I can tell you now that the Q5 and X3 will be practically impossible to separate off-road. Their centre differential layouts aside - the two cars couldn't be closer in electro-mechanical configuration and capability. In standard specification and trim, where the one succeeds the other will succeed and where the one fails the other will fail too.

Lets stick with facts, Torsen awd is superior than x-drive (which was the whole point of this thread) because unlike x-drive it doesn't react it's proactive and you know this.

The proactivity of a Torsen diff is an advantage. Its limitation in its ability to send 100% of torque to one axle is a disadvantage. That's the only real fact. Your claim that Torsen AWD is superior is just that - a claim.

 

[Zafiro]

LoL another BMW vs Audi debate

It's not about which system is the best. None of them are bad. Both systems offer better traction than any FWD and RWD. Both system have their ups and downs but in the end both xdrive and Quattro is very good. Saying quattro is better than X-drive or the other way around is nonsense.

PS not a good thing to argue about AWD with Martin, lets say this is his expertise area.

 

[VroomVroom]

Fantastic responses from Martin!

These AWD systems are not for off road capabilities, more on-road traction. I wouldn't even take a X5 or Q7 off-road.

 

[PanterroR]

footie telling Martin to go a little off-road...

Sorry, footie, but you're "messing" with the wrong guy and you don't know it.

 

[ateekt]

I'd let my favorite smiley, doing the talking!!

 

[Human]

Fantastic responses from Martin!

These AWD systems are not for off road capabilities, more on-road traction. I wouldn't even take a X5 or Q7 off-road.

X-Drive ON-road is: Pure All Wheel Drive Pleasure

Off road: LR Disco 4 thank you!

 

[martinbo]

Oh by the way Human, I drove your xDrive23d with DPC diff on the weekend - I am in process of recommending it to family friends who are looking to replace their 325i Touring with something a little more lifestyle oriented. The car is for a lady and the brief is that it mustn't be a big, bulky SUV and must behave on-road as close as possible to her beloved 3er.

Sorted. What a fabulous "little" car. Nimble, even agile, resists understeer amazingly, cornering balance is good and even the primary ride quality is decent. I was very impressed with the on-road manners of the X1, especially considering I'd just gotten out of my WRX and straight into the X1.

A very impressive AWD system in its own right. Just as quattro is in its right too...

 

[Human]

Oh by the way Human, I drove your xDrive23d with DPC diff on the weekend - I am in process of recommending it to family friends who are looking to replace their 325i Touring with something a little more lifestyle oriented. The car is for a lady and the brief is that it mustn't be a big, bulky SUV and must behave on-road as close as possible to her beloved 3er.

Sorted. What a fabulous "little" car. Nimble, even agile, resists understeer amazingly, cornering balance is good and even the primary ride quality is decent. I was very impressed with the on-road manners of the X1, especially considering I'd just gotten out of my WRX and straight into the X1.

A very impressive AWD system in its own right. Just as quattro is in its right too...

Hey Martin, thanks for your feedback - coming from you one can take it to the bank!
Indeed, the X1 is a true drivers car and a true BMW in every sense of the word especially in the drive. The I4 TT engine of the 23d is a delight with torque to spare. Talking of torque, it is delivered in a smooth 'premium' manner through the 2nd generation ZF 6 speed box and in sport mode the torque 'sweet spot' is retained in every gear.
My only reservation with the X1 (especially a 23d starting @ R464 000.00) will be the poor plastics and lack of real premium feel. Other than the below standard interior that makes the X1 a ripoff compared to the F10 5 series, it's a practical car with true BMW drive, feel, precise and direct steering as well as good suspension comfort - especially for a BMW

I also have the DPC diff and can't really tell the difference. With the X6 I can see what's happening with torque/drive distribution on the display in the instrument cluster, my X1 is for sale - done nearly/only 5000km now and your friends may have it @ R525 000.00


2010 BMW X1 23d

VIN Number: WBAVP52090VK51708

Model: VP52 X1 XDRIVE23D RL


OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT INCLUDED:

668 Black II
LUSW Leather Navada Black
Z01 Innovations Package
2VG Performance Control
620 Voice Control
644 Bluetooth compatible cellphone preparation
6FL USB/Audio Interface
609 Navigation System Professional
235 Trailor Tow Hitch, removable ball head
2S9 Star-Spoke style 320 225/45 R18
2XA Shift Paddles on steering wheel
322 Comfort Access
3AG Rear View Camera
3XL Roof Rails Aluminium satinated
413 Luggage Compartment net
430 Interior and Exterior mirrors with Automatic ant-dazzle function
459 Seat Adjustment Electric with memory for driver's seat
488 Lumbar Support for driver and passanger seat
4B9 Interior trim finishers Fine Brushed Aluminium
502 Headlamp washer system
524 Adaptive headlights
522 Xenon Headlights
563 Extended Lights Package

 

[Yperion]

I'd let my favorite smiley, doing the talking!!

Actually Nissan AWD is better than both systems.

Up to 50 km/h i can lock the transfer of torque to the rear wheels.

 

[south]

I also have the DPC diff and can't really tell the difference. With the X6 I can see what's happening with torque/drive distribution on the display in the instrument cluster, ...

I think these are different systems, the X6 got the real deal of a torque vectoring diff controlled by electronics while the DPC option for the X1 is more or less a DSC/ESP feature.


Best regards,
south

 

[Human]

I think these are different systems, the X6 got the real deal of a torque vectoring diff controlled by electronics while the DPC option for the X1 is more or less a DSC/ESP feature.


Best regards,
south

You're correct south. The X6's DPC is mechanical diff + electronic whilst the X1's is purely a DSC feature and a 'cheap' optional extra @ R1600.00 or +/- Euro 145.00

 

[footie]

You're correct south. The X6's DPC is mechanical diff + electronic whilst the X1's is purely a DSC feature and a 'cheap' optional extra @ R1600.00 or +/- Euro 145.00

I'm assuming the setup on the X1 works similarly to the eLSD on the wife's GTI. If so then it's OK and does it's intended job of tighening the line but not truly finding extra grip as is the case with the other, in other words it's functional rather than being brilliant.

 

[south]

I'm assuming the setup on the X1 works similarly to the eLSD on the wife's GTI. If so then it's OK and does it's intended job of tighening the line but not truly finding extra grip as is the case with the other, in other words it's functional rather than being brilliant.

Yep, biggest (and obvious) difference is that the VW XDS ('eLSD') applies the brakes to the inner front wheel and the BMW Performance control applies the brakes to the inner rear wheel.


Best regards,
south

 

[footie]

Yep, biggest (and obvious) difference is that the VW XDS ('eLSD') applies the brakes to the inner front wheel and the BMW Performance control applies the brakes to the inner rear wheel.


Best regards,
south

The remarkable thing is that there 'electonic' systems are still very effective, just look at the lap times of the Scirocco R vs Golf R, yes the Scirocco is lighter but it's minus AWD and still laps quicker. So for the small price I reckon they are a worthwhile addition.