Vs Video: xDrive vs. Quattro

Vehicle comparisons, matchups, debates, performance battles, and head-to-head discussions.
Hands up who has taken any of these cars off road to know exactly what they are capable of?

Well I have, I've done LR, Porsche and Audi with the Allroader and I can tell you that first and foremost the choice of rubber is the most important thing and next is the skill of the driver. The torsen system in the Audi is exceptionally good at finding available grip and IS one of the quickest at transfering the available torque to the other wheels but it doesn't have diff lock and can't truly be classed as a full off roader without this.

The only real world comparison video here is the one I posted which has them all climbing that snow covered ski-resort hill and you seen the outcome there. ;)
 
I agree. In test here, in real life situations, BMW has fared as well as, or even better than, the VAG system.
 
^ All tests depend greatly on the rubber choice and off road this is more important than anywhere.

The tests I'm thinking of are all performed to show how the cars behave under bad winter conditions - neiter Audi nor BMW builds any models suited to go offroad.
 
The tests I'm thinking of are all performed to show how the cars behave under bad winter conditions - neiter Audi nor BMW builds any models suited to go offroad.

Each group have their own opinions as to which setup is best, but you need to look at the names which used Torsen and those that don't. Torsen AWD are proactive and constantly monitor the reactions of the wheels and tranfer power in an instant, no electronic involved so no chance of a ABS/DSC sensor failure which will effect the ability of the system to function properly.
 
This test is as good as comparing the lap times of different cars with different drivers on different weather conditions.
 
HAha wow, soo many assumptions made on hardly any info!

YEAHH X-DRIVE IS THE BEST BECAUSE THE BMW COULD GET UP THE SLOPE, QUATTRO SUCKS! END OF STORY.

At the end of the day, even Land Rover defender or discovery hell even a Uni mog can get stuck with an idiot driving or the wrong settings....
 
All-wheel Drive systems all have their advantages and disadvantages. This BMW bunch in the video (more than likely just a dealer doing their own X3 launch to prospective customers) know how to exploit a potential weakness in Torsen centre differential-based Quattro. A Torsen differential is an exquisite (for nerds like me at least) piece of mechanical engineering. It’s purely mechanical unit – not making use of viscous fluids or electronically actuated clutches – that comprises of helical gears located in a planetary gear arrangement. Purely through the laws of physics this Torque-Sensing (Torsen – get it?) differential apportions torque front to rear – when employed as a centre diff – in infinitely variable amounts depending on which side of the diff has the most frictional resistance. So, depending on which axle has the most grip Torsen will send as much of the torque as possible to that axle. It’s a superb device for road cars, infinitely apportioning torque back-and-forth to the grippier axle.

Disadvantages: a Torsen diff is a torque multiplying device. This means that if a complete loss of frictional resistance is experienced at one end, then no torque can be delivered to the other side.
Quite simply: Torque x 0 = 0. Another, lesser disadvantage is the mechanical limitation of a Torsen diff to apportion more than a certain percentage of torque. If I recall correctly, only about 80% of the drive can be apportioned to either side. Now here’s the cool thing: as soon as any resistance is available at an axle, just like a tyre gripping the road, Torsen works – beautifully. Modern traction control systems do exactly this; by braking the disc of a spinning wheel (or wheels) resistance is restored and the drive can be sent to the axle with the grip.

I am 95% certain that unscrupulous demonstration techniques are at work here: the Q5 has had its traction control system disabled (more than likely the fuse has been pulled) because the demonstration is purposely and childishly designed to exploit the mathematical limitation in Torsen and not the complete Quattro solution as a whole. In exactly the same way that a road provides resistance to the wheels, the traction control system will brake the spinning wheels restoring resistance for Torsen to work.

BMW’s xDrive uses clutches electronically to engage either side of the differential and as a result xDrive can apportion the full 100% of drive to the front or rear axle. Hence the format of the demonstration, which I might add is very unrepresentative of a real world condition that you may encounter. Both wheels of an axle losing traction at once? What were you trying to do? Reverse off a ledge? Drive on to a frozen lake? Ahh, of course, you were doing a BMW technology demonstration.

Every permanent all-wheel drive system needs some form of centre differential to allow the front and rear wheels to rotate at different speeds (because they do when cornering as the front axle tracks a different path to the rear) and some of these devices work better than others in certain conditions and vice versa. This is purely as a result of the compromises arising from the elected mechanical solutions than some my-brand-of-4x4 –is-better-than-yours nonsense.

A much more telling measure of an AWD system’s ability to cope with a greater variation of low-grip scenarios is to check out what kind of limited slip differentials are located at one or more axle. The reason I say this is that the marketers use the term “transferring torque to the wheels with the most grip”. Notice the use of “wheels” plural. If they said “...wheel with most grip” and all they have is an ordinary open diff front and rear then I’d say that their claim is contentious and not technically correct. Both Audi’s Quattro and BMW’s xDrive centre differentials only apportion torque to the axle with the most grip. It’s the ABS/Traction Control system (completely removed from a mechanical perspective) that brakes a spinning wheel in order to restore resistance and thus apportion drive to the wheel that does have grip.

A far more realistic scenario for an AWD system to lose drive altogether is the dreaded cross-axle loss of grip often found when traversing uneven off-road terrain. In this case a front wheel at one corner loses grip and the opposite rear wheel loses grip. Now, if you’ve just got an ordinary open differential and no traction control system to brake the spinning wheels, you’re going nowhere. Interestingly, BMW’s xDrive sans DPC rear-diff has two regular open differentials at either end and will rely on wheel speed sensors in the ABS system to signal that a wheel needs to be braked. So nothing all that special to write home about.

A really cool AWD system – like that on a WRX STI - will use three limited slip diffs, front, centre and rear to apportion as much drive to the grippiest wheel (not just axle) before having to rely on braking a wheel. Combine this with a sophisticated 3 level traction control system and now that’s what I call an AWD system. ;) ;)

BMW DPC or Quattro sport differentials are nice examples of great OEM supplier innovation finding its way into production vehicles but should not be construed as one brand of AWD system being better than another.

I found this post of mine [bad etiquette, I know] from October 2005 – 5 years ago :) just for a bit a laugh. The fundamentals are the same but my views have changed slightly.

martinbo said:
There are 3 main types of AWD on any given vehicle and their fundamental behavior is governed by the single most important component of any AWD system: the centre differential.

1. Semi-permanent, reactive AWD
You'll notice the list of cars in that Haldex page, most of them are FWD cars and the Haldex LSC acts as a limited slip centre differential that reacts to front wheel slippage (very quickly mind you) to send torque aft to the rear axle. Once the slipping stops, so does the all-wheel drive. So, the ultimate benefits of AWD *2 aren't attained and the car behaves predominantly in much the same way as its FWD counterpart might do i.e. the vehicle has a natural tendency to understeer quite dramatically when pushed close to the limits of adhesion. Examples are the Audi S3, Golf R32 and Volvo XC70 Cross Country.

2. Permanent, reactive AWD
This is a much better system - especially if the torque split is 50:50 or close to that - as the benefits of AWD are already in place and working for the driver. Because the torque split is so even, the wheel that has the most grip is doing most of the work and so, even in the event of wheel spin the limited slip device such as a viscous coupling has much less work to do in terms of apportioning a percentage of torque to the axle with most grip. It's quite simple: take a powerful car like an R32 with 320 Nm and divide that between the two front wheels = 160 Nm per tyre. Take a US spec STI with 400 Nm divide by all four wheels = 100 Nm per tyre. So the limited slip diff has a more even spread of torque and thus has less to do when moving it from front to rear. The LSD reacts to losses in grip at a given axle. Subaru is a prime example of this system as is Porsche and to a lesser extent, BMW's x-Drive which uses electronic sensors to signal the transfer of torque. Such a vehicle has a natural tendency to understeer when pushed beyond the limits of adhesion.

3. Permanent, proactive AWD
The ultimate AWD systems, the most notable example being Torsen as found in the Audi S4, RS4 and RS6 for example. It takes the above concept of AWD to a different level. The Torsen centre differential is a worm / planetary gear arrangement that is a mechanical work of art. It's name is derived from TORque & SENsing because really that's what it does: senses which axle has the most torque based on the frictional co-efficient or the amount of grip that that axle has. It reacts early on to subtle changes in torque before grip is lost. Hence, my term proactive. This is the ultimate in LSD technology in my opinion.
 
^
From the master himself;) Thanks for the update and very useful info. Martin:t-cheers:

IMO the tech applied and used by manufacturers in AWD systems is sufficient enough for their intended use and applications. I for one will buy LR..Disco 4 if the urge to go off road bites me. For now X-Drive is more than sufficient as a 'drivers' AWD system.
 
Nice explanation Martin.

So, depending on which axle has the most grip Torsen will send as much of the torque as possible to that axle.
But this is the part that confuses me. So, in this case why didn't it send the torque to the front axle when the rear wheels were spinning on the rollers and consequentially didn't have any grip? It seemed to work when the front wheels were on the rollers and send the drive to the rear but not the oppsite when the rear got stuck.
 
Nice explanation Martin.


But this is the part that confuses me. So, in this case why didn't it send the torque to the front axle when the rear wheels were spinning on the rollers and consequentially didn't have any grip? It seemed to work when the front wheels were on the rollers and send the drive to the rear but not the oppsite when the rear got stuck.

I believe what Martin is explaining was that it was fixed to show the Torsen system which is Audi's quattro in it's worst light by disengaging the ESP. What normally happens is if traction is lost on one axle then the ESP brakes the axle to transfer the power to the other axle. In other words it's pure marketing gimmickry.

The reality is that in slippery conditions the one system you want to with (all other things equal) is the quattro (torsen). Nothing against the others but they are only playing at offroad.
 
I believe what Martin is explaining was that it was fixed to show the Torsen system which is Audi's quattro in it's worst light by disengaging the ESP. What normally happens is if traction is lost on one axle then the ESP brakes the axle to transfer the power to the other axle. In other words it's pure marketing gimmickry.

The reality is that in slippery conditions the one system you want to with (all other things equal) is the quattro (torsen). Nothing against the others but they are only playing at offroad.

No, according to Martin's explanation (the part which I quoted in my previous post) it should work irrespective of if ESP is on or off. And it does seem to work in the case when the front wheels are stuck, but not when rear is. When a wheel/axis is freely spinning, it doesn't have any grip, the torsen diff should inherently transfer the torque to the other wheel/axis. Why is there a need for ESP for this to happen?
 
No, according to Martin's explanation which I quoted it should work irrespective of if ESP is on or off. And it does in the case when the front wheels are stuck, but not when rear is. When a wheel/axis is freely spinning, it doesn't have any grip, the torsen diff should inherently transfer the torque to the other wheel/axis. Why is there a need for ESP for this to happen?

Here is what Martin says 'I am 95% certain that unscrupulous demonstration techniques are at work here: the Q5 has had its traction control system disabled (more than likely the fuse has been pulled)'. Now unless I am misunderstanding this, I believe Martin is of the opinion they have disconnected the ESP/TC systems to not allows quattro's full systems to adapt to what is happening.

I've used quattro off road and I know full well what it's capable of, given the choice of a Q5 or X3 to take off road well I know which one to pick because one will cope a hell of a lot better than the other. End of story.
 
The reality is that in slippery conditions the one system you want to with (all other things equal) is the quattro (torsen). Nothing against the others but they are only playing at offroad.

As long as we are not talking winter driving.
 
Here is what Martin says 'I am 95% certain that unscrupulous demonstration techniques are at work here: the Q5 has had its traction control system disabled (more than likely the fuse has been pulled)'. Now unless I am misunderstanding this, I believe Martin is of the opinion they have disconnected the ESP/TC systems to not allows quattro's full systems to adapt to what is happening.

I've used quattro off road and I know full well what it's capable of, given the choice of a Q5 or X3 to take off road well I know which one to pick because one will cope a hell of a lot better than the other. End of story.

Ok, you are just frothing at your mouth and blabbering fanboy crap with out reading anything, so I will just ignore you while I wait for Martin to give an intelligent explanation for my question and I bet he has one.
 
But this is the part that confuses me. So, in this case why didn't it send the torque to the front axle when the rear wheels were spinning on the rollers and consequentially didn't have any grip? It seemed to work when the front wheels were on the rollers and send the drive to the rear but not the oppsite when the rear got stuck.

Some considerations in point form:
  • In an absolutely zero-grip scenario on one axle, the Torsen diff (as a torque-multiplying device) will behave like an open differential. No drive can be apportioned to the axle with grip.
  • A Torsen diff cannot transfer 100% of torque to a given axle. Limitation seems to be about 80%.
  • In the case of the front-wheel slip on the lower gradient, if you watch the vid at 30 seconds you'll notice the front axle slewing on the rollers, and then "biting" - this creates just enough resistance to send enough of the torque needed to get up this less-steep section of the gradient to the rear wheels.
  • When the rear wheels are on the rollers (even in this scenario there is slight frictional resistance) the Q5 is now on the steep incline and simply not enough torque reaches the front wheels to pull the car up as in the case of the X3.
 
^Thanks Martin.

BTW here is a cool animation of the torsen diff in action but not in AWD application and unfortunately it is in French, but still good.

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Ok, you are just frothing at your mouth and blabbering fanboy crap with out reading anything, so I will just ignore you while I wait for Martin to give an intelligent explanation for my question and I bet he has one.

Not frothing at the mouth, just facts that this test is fixed to show something which doesn't happen in the real world. Here's another example of quattro at work in snow which one should think would stop a low riding awd car in it's track.


This video might also interest you. ;)

 
Awesome Sunny - great find. I haven't seen that one before. Gotta love that Torsen design. American in its origin btw, an for a while was owned by Toyoda in Japan. Don't know who's got rights to it now.
 

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