The Quandts finally forming an automotive holding!


I still think it's a good idea. Lexus, Audi etc. will ensure sufficient competition is present.

Exactly. It's not as if the move will mean NO competition, just greater cooperation (and therefore potentially better products at a lower cost of manufacture). I mean come on, look at the VAG group: Scoda, Seat, VW, Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, plus probably more I've forgotten about: it's not as if people are complaining that the fact these companies are grouped together is decreasing competition. Of course the main difference is that MB and BMW cross compete on most levels, but I think their products are differentiated enough for this not to be too much of an issue.

(Look at Scoda and VW's products, for example: they are virtually identical, the main difference being pricing, but they most certainly compete).
 
^ I completely disagree Germaniac. The supposed competition from within the VW Group is artificial and most certainly manipulated at a board level to the requirements of the holding group.

VW / Audi / Seat / Skoda? That's not competition. That's product placement.
 
Hmm, interesting. This could be a topic in its own right: "Cannibalism or product placement".

How would you define and differentiate the product placement of the Audi A8 and the VW Phaeton (for instance) Martin?
 
OK, HRH is creeping around our country these days, so everybody deals with her. And our government still isn't formed, and the parliament still not having sessions. Tine still doesn't know what his position will be, and waiting for an offer.

In the meantime:

The Quandts are one of the mightiest industrialists in Germany. Once they owned stakes in both - BMW AG & Daimler-Benz AG.

I see no reason why that can't happen again.

Of course right now they are more interested in BMW AG since they own 47% of the company. While they are still keen of Daimler. And will do everything to "save" it. Just like once did with BMW AG ... how ironical ... saving it from Daimler-Benz takeover.

I guess most of you are overreacting ... BMW & MB won't share platforms etc. They will jointly develop new green tech, sharing purchasing (eg. same tire companies, same A/C parts companies, same entertainment tech companies, etc.) Sharing parts / tech that are already common in automotive industry. So, the economy of scale will be possible.

The problem is Daimler management is still convinced due MB brand their company is above all, and feel offended BMW is the iniciator in this process. They are convinced they can make it on their own but many of Daimler investors do not believe the management anymore. Cooperations are inevitable. And BMW seems the best possible partner - with PSA or FIAT when it comes to small cars. Yet the main problem for most is that BMW AG is the iniciator & leading the talks.

BMW CEO Herr Reithofer said recently for Automotive News BMW AG would emerge even stronger from this crisis that's going on right now.

Something is definitely going on. :D


And the Porsche family started the game with buying stake in VAG. Both MB & BMW are afraid of the next next by Porsche: moving Audi AG from VAG's to PAG's portfolio directly. But not before reconstructing VAG: puting all premium brands under Audi roof (Audi, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Bentley) - while Volksvagen will get Skoda, Seat & VW, and all the truck business (VW, MAN, Scania).
 
That is certainly interesting but for some reason not exciting:eusa_thin

Tine why would MB and BMW worry of Porsche's next move with Audi?
 
because if anything is impeding the full exploitation of the audi brand potential is the mishmash management of VAG, assume Porsche lets Audi fly, helps in development of RWD and AWD platforms, (mutual benefit), removes the ties to non premium VW etc...
 
That is certainly interesting but for some reason not exciting:eusa_thin

Tine why would MB and BMW worry of Porsche's next move with Audi?


Since the Audi R&D department is actually the one that drives the whole VAG development. Yet due VAG brand portfolio & mass production the solutions are much quicker implemented, and not so expensive - due to the economy of scale.

Audi has an enormous R&D potential. And Porsche that's what Porsche is targeting.

Porsche taking direct control of Audi is essential for Porsche. Not just Audi but also the whole "Premium division" of VAG (Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti).

VAG (VW, Skoda, Seat) will still be there to provide economies of scale. And that's the only advantage of VAG that Porsche is interested in.

Premium division under Porsche would be much better managed & run.

And under Porsche umbrella Audi would get a significant image boost ... Audi already builds superb cars yet in some markets their image is not so great - mainly connected to VW (especially in US).

And that's what worries BMW & MB the most: image boost for Audi brand, Porsche with direct access to Audi tech and R&D, and Lambo + Bentley + Bugatti run & managed by Porsche bosses. And all the brands (Porsche, Audi, Bentley, Lambo, Bugatti) benefiting from synergies from cooperation with VAG (economy of scale etc).

That would make the strongest premium carmaker in the world ... hurting MB & BMW badly.

So, to be able to be competitive MB & BMW would have to cooperate.
 
Since the Audi R&D department is actually the one that drives the whole VAG development. Yet due VAG brand portfolio & mass production the solutions are much quicker implemented, and not so expensive - due to the economy of scale.

Audi has an enormous R&D potential. And Porsche that's what Porsche is targeting.

Porsche taking direct control of Audi is essential for Porsche. Not just Audi but also the whole "Premium division" of VAG (Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti).

VAG (VW, Skoda, Seat) will still be there to provide economies of scale. And that's the only advantage of VAG that Porsche is interested in.

Premium division under Porsche would be much better managed & run.

And under Porsche umbrella Audi would get a significant image boost ... Audi already builds superb cars yet in some markets their image is not so great - mainly connected to VW (especially in US).

And that's what worries BMW & MB the most: image boost for Audi brand, Porsche with direct access to Audi tech and R&D, and Lambo + Bentley + Bugatti run & managed by Porsche bosses. And all the brands (Porsche, Audi, Bentley, Lambo, Bugatti) benefiting from synergies from cooperation with VAG (economy of scale etc).

That would make the strongest premium carmaker in the world ... hurting MB & BMW badly.

So, to be able to be competitive MB & BMW would have to cooperate.

I see that makes sense. In a premium world porsche and audi etc would be powerful. However how would the rest of VAG fare?

Also some people are worried porsche will stiffle fast audi products in the vein of the R8, and the introduction of smaller R models.
 
Also some people are worried porsche will stiffle fast audi products in the vein of the R8, and the introduction of smaller R models.

I think that is a real risk. It sure makes perfect sense that Porsche takes direct control of Audi, for the reasons mentioned above, and the second obvious step is to ensure that the sporty image stays where it should. I would think that Audi models in a sense could be used as entry level vehicles, positioned one step below the respective Porsche model, i.e. a 2.0T 210 hp R4 just below the Cayman.
 
MB and BMW must cooperate,make no mistake about.

The new German giant is gonna engulf them is they didn't.
 
And during that time Susanne was...

German heiress Susanne Klatten, 45, paid 7.5 million euros (£6 million) to a Swiss-Italian man who claimed he was being threatened with death by the mafia.

The married mother of three, whose £8 billion wealth makes her the third richest woman in Europe, was then allegedly blackmailed by Helg Sgarbi when he threatened to go public with films of the couple having what Italian judicial authorities described as "intimate relations" during secret trysts in luxury hotels.

Mr Sgarbi, 41, was arrested in Austria during the summer in a joint operation between German and Italian police and is now in prison in Germany after being charged with extortion.

Details of the blackmailing allegations have only now come to light through Italian investigators.

Mrs Klatten, whose huge wealth comes from stakes in BMW and the chemicals giant Altana, eventually decided to contact the police when he asked for an astonishing 40 million euros (£32 million) not to make the compromising footage public.

His accomplice, Italian hotel owner Ernano Barretta, 63, who is said to have secretly filmed the sex sessions using hidden cameras, was arrested by Italy's Flying Squad in the seaside town of Pescara, on the Adriatic coast, and is also in jail awaiting trial.

Mr Sgarbi met Mrs Klatten in 2006, and the couple regularly arranged rendezvous in luxury hotels in Monte Carlo, her home town of Munich and in other European cities.

After a few months he began claiming that he was being threatened by the American mafia and desperately needed to pay off the mobsters with large sums of protection money. Mrs Klatten initially believed him and paid out 7.5 million euros in several instalments.

Mr Sgarbi was also allegedly conning money out of other rich women he was sleeping with, spending the proceeds on property in the Egyptian resort of Sharm El Sheik, investing some in offshore banks and splurging the rest on luxury cars, including a Ferrari, a Lamborghini and a Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow.

But he soon became greedy and last December allegedly threatened to go public with the sex tapes unless Mrs Klatten paid him 40 million euros, a sum which he later reduced to 14 million euros.

Despite the prospect of acute public embarrassment Mrs Klatten, who was educated at Buckingham University and is now ranked in the Forbes Rich List as the 55th wealthiest person in the world, took the whole story to the German police.

They then collaborated with their Italian counterparts in arresting the two alleged con men.

Italian detectives planted bugs at Barretta's home, in the province of Abruzzo, and intercepted his telephone conversations with Mr Sgarbi and Mrs Klatten.

"He told me that he was being blackmailed by the Italian-American mafia who were threatening him with death because in a car accident he'd run over the baby son of a mobster," Mrs Klatten told police in a statement.

"And that if he didn't pay up they'd kill him. I believed him, he seemed sincere, I gave him the first 7.5 million euros and then the threats and blackmail started."

Three of Mrs Klatten's friends also gave statements to German police, with one saying: "He was always kind, thoughtful, he accompanied us, he surprised us with his manner, and I along with my friends fell into his trap. I also paid him millions of euros and then I reported him."

As the two men await trial in prison, they have come up with an extraordinary justification for their alleged blackmail scam, claiming that it was a vendetta against Mrs Klatten because of her family's alleged links to the Nazis.

Her fortune, including a stake in BMW, was inherited from her father, Herbert Quandt, whose alleged use of slave labour and co-operation with the Nazis during the war has been the subject of German documentaries and is being investigated by a historian funded by the Quandt family themselves.

Mr Barretta told police: "Helg's grandfather was Jewish and during the Second World War was deported to a steel works in Germany,

"Susanne Klatten is the daughter of a close collaborator of Adolf Hitler. We wanted to avenge Helg's grandfather. I helped him because we've been friends all our lives."

But Italian prosecutors were unimpressed by claims of the 70-year-old vendetta and have prepared a case against the two men.

"Our investigation has demonstrated clearly the existence of extortion in the form of attempted threats to Susanne Klatten," preliminary investigating judge Gabriella Tascone wrote in a court document.

"Mrs Klatten was threatened with the divulgence of the compromising images, captured on DVD, to companies in which she has shareholdings.

"Having obtained compromising images with deceit, Sgarbi began a period of threats ending with the delivery of huge sums of money. The decision of the victims [to denounce the alleged con men] was extremely prudent."

Mrs Klatten is a trained economist with an MBA who sits on the board of supervisors of Altana in which she inherited a 50 per cent stake from her industrialist father.

He also left her a 12.5 per cent stake in BMW. She was appointed to the supervisory board of the car manufacturer in 1997.

She met her husband Jan Klatten while she was doing an apprenticeship with BMW in Germany, where he worked as an engineer. They married in 1990 in Kitzbühel. She is one of the biggest donors to political parties in Germany.

:D
 
And during that time Susanne was...

:D


Naughty, naughty Susanne!
She has to be spanked. Really hard!

But being blackmailed for sex footages ... Boring!

Imagine her being blackmailed for secretly driving ... an Audi or a MB. :D
 
Mr. Mercedes said:
So ENI. Any word if the current situation is making this holding company for BMW and MB more likely? I hope so.

Could be.

Mind the Quandts are loaded with cash. I have no info where they put all their money they got yearly from the dividends in various companies they own (incl BMW). Not to mention fees for Supervisory Board memberships etc.

Sure they have been hit with the financial crisis, but the old rumor says they have enough cash available to takeover the rest of the BMW AG at any time. And I'm sure that's not just a rumor.

So, they have money ... D'uh Susanne even easily paid several millions of Euros to the man who blackmailed her.

Stefan's move to form a holding has also very much to do with taxes. Dividends are high, so are the German taxes. :D

I'm sure something will be done next year ... IMO the Quandts will move their BMW AG shares to the Aqton SE, and buy some minor stake in Daimler and perhaps in some other automotive company. Later on other investors will be invited to join Aqton (bringing in fresh money), with the Quandts retaining the majority stake in the holding. With more money the stakes in targeted companies can be increased.
The Quandts try to convince some BMW & Daimler stakeholders to transfer their shares to Aqton SE, and get the Aqton shares insted.
So, this case it's not a classic takeover but a creation of "parent company" via stake transfer.

IMO in 2015 Aqton SE will own a vast majority in BMW AG, and a big part of Daimler AG. And some other companies ... perhaps even Aston Martin etc. ;)
 
Newest issue of AutoBild features an article on secret plans how to put BMW, Daimler & Opel under one (holding?) umbrella.

More when the issue is available (tomorrow).
 
I don't see GM giving up Opel, it's their bred maker in Europe. If that happens, you can order a coffin and some nails for GM :)
Besides, Opel understeer like shit, handle like a pig
 

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