"Stick shift" vs "Paddle shift" transmissions


What type of transmission fan are you?

  • Die hard traditionalist: stick shift or nothing!

    Votes: 8 21.1%
  • Paddle shift transmission fan: fast and perfect shifts everytime....the way of the future

    Votes: 6 15.8%
  • "I'm easy either way" fan: stick shift or paddle shift are OK with you

    Votes: 24 63.2%

  • Total voters
    38
Eh? o_O

You were understeering in the wet and you managed to "control the traction" using the clutch to achieve what exactly? You can do that but it will have no further effect than a throttle lift. It's not the correct technique - to mitigate understeer best you need to apply throttle and steering changes - not use the clutch. Why? Depressing the clutch will negate the effect of engine braking on the front wheels as you'll simply be coasting at the same speed. Engine braking allows for load transfer on to the front axle and it's fundamental to the operation of "lift-off oversteer". It's a common term so closely associated with the joys of driving a good front-driver. I use it all the time to when I'm little French hatchbacks to prospective customers. Furthermore, an additional dose of effectiveness is achieved by winding off a few degrees of steering lock as steering angle is the other prime contributor to understeer.

You may have your technique but I don't see the necessity for it.


Throttle lift doesn't work in between gear shifts. So yes, it was the clutch during engaging. Of course there's throttle and some steering changes involved. I was giving a comparo to an AT so I left steering out.
 
Throttle lift doesn't work in between gear shifts. So yes, it was the clutch during engaging. Of course there's throttle and some steering changes involved. I was giving a comparo to an AT so I left steering out.

Goodness me! Why were you changing gears and turning the corner at the same time? :eek:
 
Goodness me! Why were you changing gears and turning the corner at the same time? :eek:


I wasn't in gear at all. I went for a gear just to gain my traction back. Scandinavian flick or spinning wheels isn't OK with the cops so all that's left is the passive under-steer :)
 
Lol, this keeps getting better. If you were in neutral (setting aside the ridiculousness of taking a turn in neutral), how the heck did you "managed to control the traction by simply using the clutch".

Even my "noob non-pro racer ass" knows a clutch has almost no effect while in neutral.
 
Lol, this keeps getting better. If you were in neutral (setting aside the ridiculousness of taking a turn in neutral), how the heck did you "managed to control the traction by simply using the clutch".

Even my "noob non-pro racer ass" knows a clutch has almost no effect while in neutral.


Pfhahahahahaha :D OK, try re-reading some stuff then :) Sorry, I just walk up with your comment :D

PS: I'm not into forum conversation much anymore so I'll try to end it here.
A 60HP Diesel NA has it's dead moment between 2200 and 3000RPM.
It also has it's gear ratios which are only OK for daily commuting but far less "track oriented". In some cases you end up in a situation where your current speed isn't suitable for both the lower or higher gear of choice and simply rev matching and dropping the clutch won't make the front wheels go with the desired/grip finding speed you'd like them to... all you can do is balance by both throttle and the clutch. Especially in situations where you only have tenths of a second to react. I don't know the terms in English for plenty of what I'm saying and that's why I might sound a little noob-ish. I'm trying to explain it with my own words. I know pretty well how to get in a corner if I was after the fastest way of going through it but as I already stated, that isn't the case and rarely is on a public road when I'm behind the wheel. I'm not giving a lecture on how to drive. I just gave an example to why I love the clutch pedal in "situations of joy". Yes, under-steer might not seem to be as much fun compared to over-steer but I still kind of enjoy it.
 
Pfhahahahahaha :D OK, try re-reading some stuff then :) Sorry, I just walk up with your comment :D

PS: I'm not into forum conversation much anymore so I'll try to end it here.
A 60HP Diesel NA has it's dead moment between 2200 and 3000RPM.
It also has it's gear ratios which are only OK for daily commuting but far less "track oriented". In some cases you end up in a situation where your current speed isn't suitable for both the lower or higher gear of choice and simply rev matching and dropping the clutch won't make the front wheels go with the desired/grip finding speed you'd like them to... all you can do is balance by both throttle and the clutch. Especially in situations where you only have tenths of a second to react. I don't know the terms in English for plenty of what I'm saying and that's why I might sound a little noob-ish. I'm trying to explain it with my own words. I know pretty well how to get in a corner if I was after the fastest way of going through it but as I already stated, that isn't the case and rarely is on a public road when I'm behind the wheel. I'm not giving a lecture on how to drive. I just gave an example to why I love the clutch pedal in "situations of joy". Yes, under-steer might not seem to be as much fun compared to over-steer but I still kind of enjoy it.

Clutch slipping?
 
Didn't I read somewhere on here that MiniCooper4 is a professional racing driver, or at least has had some racing experience in professional capacity?

In fact, I know I read it.
 
I fall into category 3 liking either with equal measure but it really depends on the car and application it will be used for which will sway my stance.
 
Didn't I read somewhere on here that MiniCooper4 is a professional racing driver, or at least has had some racing experience in professional capacity?

In fact, I know I read it.
Given the above discussion, it couldn't have been manual cars that he was racing!
 
Clutch slipping?


Maybe, that's how it is called. That should be it.
Had to learn English in school and not on the street... it's too late now :D

@Betty Swollocks

Yes, I was racing during that night. I was trying it for the first time and it was thrilling!

@ACE From your post it seems like you don't get much from what I'm saying. Sorry for my poor English as the problem might be just that. Lately I have to add an explanation to every single thing I write here while I don't even try to say much by posting it... Just sharing some stuff and experiences turns into a spectacle for somebody's ego. Even if it has nothing to do with Mercedes... or let's say racing for example people will take it the way it suits them. Great to be a part of this community :)
 
Die hard manual for me. Love rev-matching and heel-toe shifts even on city roads while approaching turns. Need to use all of my limbs to feel engaged. :D
 
Look, if I was a science hobbyist and belonged to a forum called quantum-physicists.org it's quite feasible that a Nobel nominate could try and explain something to me and then go "oh never mind - you just don't understand" because she'd probably be right. However, on something as utterly basic & standard as good car control - there's a well established and recognised "best practice" on how things should be done and, it's all over the internet. It's not alchemy or witchcraft - just basic common sense stuff. So, in such a case, it's completely incorrect to infer that someone doesn't understand you when actually, what's being said by you does not conform to commonly referable and verifiable information at hand.

First off, you don't need to be a racing driver to be a good driver. I have met dozens of characters who, by virtue of daddy's money, got into motor-racing (and many of them are undeniably fast) but lacked the complete set of skills that sets true motorsport winners apart. I have had the great fortune to be instructed by both career professional advanced driving instructors and some of the fastest racers in this country. So, I have a great frame of reference. When it comes to outright speed, opinions do vary - especially with regard to what's the best cornering line - but when it comes to outright car control: the technique and message is almost inseparably consistent. Good instructors, instructing a public advanced course, will teach students how to drive as safely as possible on the road and how to maximise car control in order to mitigate risk. This is an entirely different theme to that of a trackday instruction session.

The trackday session will include advanced techniques such as trail-braking, heel-n-toe and, for the very best learners, left foot braking in order to optimise a car's speed at every point on the circuit. For classic car racing additional emphasis is placed on double de-clutching + heel-n-toe downshifts because of the nature of older gearboxes (yes, even older constant-mesh ones) and mechanical limited slip differentials. On modern cars with advanced, high-speed synchromeshing, double de-clutching is superfluous.

The one thing that doesn't change is the instruction of the technique around the use of the car's controls for either advanced on-road driving or track work. There are always exceptions to any hard-n-fast rule - short-shifting in a long sweeper comes to mind as an example - but for 98% of the time, established on-road best practice is the same as that on track when it comes to the correct use of manual controls in a car. Changing down a gear mid-corner, coasting clutch-in in neutral to mitigate understeer and so on are all terribly wrong driving techniques. Don't take my word for it though, there are some terrific websites out there for you to research.
 
Left foot braking, anyone use to racing karts will be very familiar with this though it does take some getting use to with a road car because they are generally servo-assisted.
 
Look, if I was a science hobbyist and belonged to a forum called quantum-physicists.org it's quite feasible that a Nobel nominate could try and explain something to me and then go "oh never mind - you just don't understand" because she'd probably be right. However, on something as utterly basic & standard as good car control - there's a well established and recognised "best practice" on how things should be done and, it's all over the internet. It's not alchemy or witchcraft - just basic common sense stuff. So, in such a case, it's completely incorrect to infer that someone doesn't understand you when actually, what's being said by you does not conform to commonly referable and verifiable information at hand.

First off, you don't need to be a racing driver to be a good driver. I have met dozens of characters who, by virtue of daddy's money, got into motor-racing (and many of them are undeniably fast) but lacked the complete set of skills that sets true motorsport winners apart. I have had the great fortune to be instructed by both career professional advanced driving instructors and some of the fastest racers in this country. So, I have a great frame of reference. When it comes to outright speed, opinions do vary - especially with regard to what's the best cornering line - but when it comes to outright car control: the technique and message is almost inseparably consistent. Good instructors, instructing a public advanced course, will teach students how to drive as safely as possible on the road and how to maximise car control in order to mitigate risk. This is an entirely different theme to that of a trackday instruction session.

The trackday session will include advanced techniques such as trail-braking, heel-n-toe and, for the very best learners, left foot braking in order to optimise a car's speed at every point on the circuit. For classic car racing additional emphasis is placed on double de-clutching + heel-n-toe downshifts because of the nature of older gearboxes (yes, even older constant-mesh ones) and mechanical limited slip differentials. On modern cars with advanced, high-speed synchromeshing, double de-clutching is superfluous.

The one thing that doesn't change is the instruction of the technique around the use of the car's controls for either advanced on-road driving or track work. There are always exceptions to any hard-n-fast rule - short-shifting in a long sweeper comes to mind as an example - but for 98% of the time, established on-road best practice is the same as that on track when it comes to the correct use of manual controls in a car. Changing down a gear mid-corner, coasting clutch-in in neutral to mitigate understeer and so on are all terribly wrong driving techniques. Don't take my word for it though, there are some terrific websites out there for you to research.

That here is a nice post without any disrespectful attitude in it!
Thanks , Martin!
I'm sure you can understand anything car or motorsport related and you'll be the last person on this board I'll ever doubt!
I said that you don't understand what I was saying, not that you lack the knowledge to dig it. I'm not able to explain the things I'm trying to say as good as you do. And please do realize that by no means and nowhere I was saying what's the best and fastest way to do things. I perfectly know how to go fast through corners but that wasn't the topic AT ALL. I wasn't racing back then neither was trying to be fast... it actually was completely the opposite.
 

Trending content


Back
Top