LFA SportAuto: LFA supertest

[Guibo]

...and my point is that we do not know if the car has 1,000 km or 10,000 km under its belt.

Are you implying that Lexus are either deliberately or accidentally mis-representing the mileage of this car? It's not like red LFA's have been seen too much in media.

 

[Mr Robert]

Are you implying that Lexus are either deliberately or accidentally mis-representing the mileage of this car? It's not like red LFA's have been seen too much in media.

All I'm saying is that as long as we are talking about prototypes, I don't regard them as representative to the production version of the car. They could both better and worse in every possible regard, but representative, they are not.

Another example on the same subject; the prototype 1M:s that were shown to the press, I would not be the least bit surprised if those cars were quite different from the final produc. But BMW only allowed ride-alongs, so it will be harder to notice while still giving a very good first impression. What? Me synical?

 

[Guibo]

I doubt the production versions will be much faster or slower. Prototypes of the GT-R, various Porsches, and Corvettes have lapped reasonably close to Sport Auto times considering variables in surface, weather, and drivers. They have been representative. It's not likely IMO that the production one will be, say, 20-30s off pace. I think it's pretty safe to assume the production ones will be lapping in hot Lambo/Ferrari/ZR1/GT-R territory with HvS at the wheel. Certainly not 996 Turbo territory and certainly not in Gumpert Apollo territory.

Lexus are well beyond the point of where BMW are with the 1M. They've given multiple journalists multiple drives (not just ride alongs) at tracks like Goodwood and even the Nordschleife itself. They let Chris Harris loose on UK B-roads for several hours, with no minders in attendance. They let Car Magazine take it out on the autobahn to compare with the SLS. We've already seen a TopGear episode, complete with a Stig lap in wet conditions. They let Motor Trend take it for a comparison against the GT-R and even strapped it down on the dyno; the MT guys had to call Lexus headquarters when they were figuring out how to best launch the car (Lexus OK'ed a neutral tranny drop which is a pretty harsh procedure). In the 0-300-0 test, they didn't even bother to disable the rear wing, usually as simple as pulling a fuse.
Most fully fledged production cars don't even receive this level of independent scrutiny.

 

[Mr Robert]

They are beyond now, but what do we know about the prototypes used in various tests? I'm only saying they can't be trusted.

 

[330CIZHP]

Are you implying that Lexus are either deliberately or accidentally mis-representing the mileage of this car? It's not like red LFA's have been seen too much in media.

x 2

Arguing LFA's odometer is inaccurate or deliberately tampered is just plain silly. There is absolutely no reason for Lexus to do that. If Lexus really had a reason to be concerned about the numbers, Lexus would let the break in procedure commence first, put a more aggressive launch control system and also put very sticky high performance rubber on it and micro manage them through consultations at every step (like Nissan did in many of the early press tests). Lexus just lets any joe blow loose on the LFA.

The red prototype was never seen in Europe until July when Riggers from Pistonhead did hotlaps at Goodwood. That was the first time it was shown in a demo/test.

They built a Lexus prototype and handed it over to the press. Goodwood first, AutoZeitung and then SportAuto after that. It had 1000 KM at the time it was tested by SportAuto so that is what it stood at.

 

[DeDe]

Do you guys really talking about this picture?



What if they just measured the distance they've driven during the testing?

 

[Mr Robert]

Arguing LFA's odometer is inaccurate or deliberately tampered is just plain silly.

As most must have understood, it was not an argument about the oddometer specifically. Was that so unclear?

Again. I can't write slowly so I will ask everyone to read slowly : Prototypes are not to be trusted.

I just used the oddometer as an example. For all we know, this might be the fourth engine in the car... and it could be the first. It could have 100 hp more than the production version, it could have a special chassis... it could be a worn out test rigg with a cleared memory.

Anyone not appreciating these obvious issues with performance testing with prototypes are probably blinded by something...

 

[330CIZHP]

I see your point.

However, if you look at the trip computers in most, if not all cars, there is a small indicator (like a small 't' or if multiple entries then 'A' or 'B' and so on) to tell it apart from the actual odometer reading. Assuming there is no indicator along the mileage reading, it is most likely the odometer reading itself.

What if they just measured the distance they've driven during the testing?

 

[Guibo]

I just used the oddometer as an example. For all we know, this might be the fourth engine in the car... and it could be the first. It could have 100 hp more than the production version, it could have a special chassis... it could be a worn out test rigg with a cleared memory.

It could be the 4th engine or it could be the 20th engine. These are possibilities, but what's at issue is the probability. Based on this particular car's performance and referencing it against the Motor Trend car (which was independently dyno'ed), I think it's safe to say this car most certainly did not have 100 more hp than the Motor Trend car, which most people accept as performing on a level expected with the claimed hp specification (if anything, the consensus has been that it's a bit slow).

If this was a worn out test rig, then we'd have seen a lot more press of it. A red Lexus LFA seen lapping the 'Ring or on the autobahn long enough to go through 4 engines would be pretty easy to spot. Lexus's image is riding on this car and I think they know it would be pretty foolish to deliver a product that were signficantly slower.
For the record, the red LFA was first seen briefly as far back as March 29th, in Japan. It was later put on static display at a car show in Japan. It wasn't spotted again until the Goodwood session and to my knowledge, no red LFA has since been seen back in Japan. I'm also fairly certain the whereabouts of the other LFA's can still be accounted for.


As to the possibility of the tripmeter, it's possible. But not likely. From the Motor Trend dyno video, we can see there is definitely a tripmeter labeled, when the function is enabled.

 

[Mr Robert]

Yeah, it could be a legit car. But only "could".

The oddometer (I can't believe we are still discussing the oddometer) could easily have been reset by Toyota and the car could have been wraped in white vinyl. But then again, that is just me not buying everything presented and probably being overly negative against things not in production guise.

 

[330CIZHP]

x 2

There is no data to support that whatsoever. If anything, LFA prototypes from a power/acceleration stand point has been performing well below where it should be.

Here are a few factors to consider:

- On Nurburgring, SportAuto cited LFA's straight line performance was not up to par with cars like Ferrari 458 Italia with similar output hitting a top speed of 275 km/h compared to 290 km/h for the Ferrari. Where LFA truly shined was in the corners where it was capable of carrying speeds much higher than most supercars and pulling more lateral gs enabling it to run incredibly fast laps so if anything LFA prototypes have been underperforming past 125 mph (200 km/h) given its power output.

- MotorTrend dyno'ed the LFA on a Mustang dyno. Granted, Mustang dynos read lower than all other dynos, LFA prototype dyno'ed at only 435 wheel HP compared to 365 wheel HP for GTR, which gives along the lines of only 510 HP at the crank given the typical rear wheel drivetrain loss of 15 - 17%.

Now, upon investigation, the issue was that the dyno was an all wheel drive dyno for the Nissan GTR and LFA being rear wheel drive in the video was spinning the front rollers as well with its rear wheels, which could have explained why the car made less power than expected.

- 0 - 125 mph in 12.0 seconds, 0 - 150 mph in 17.3 seconds, but 50.6 seconds to 300 KM/H. Hello?? The 240 - 300 KM/H is slower than even M6, GT3, M5 and the list goes on.

- Red LFA was never seen anywhere until Riggers from PistonHeads did a full track test and review with the red LFA in July of 2010.

It could be the 4th engine or it could be the 20th engine. These are possibilities, but what's at issue is the probability. Based on this particular car's performance and referencing it against the Motor Trend car (which was independently dyno'ed), I think it's safe to say this car most certainly did not have 100 more hp than the Motor Trend car, which most people accept as performing on a level expected with the claimed hp specification (if anything, the consensus has been that it's a bit slow).

If this was a worn out test rig, then we'd have seen a lot more press of it. A red Lexus LFA seen lapping the 'Ring or on the autobahn long enough to go through 4 engines would be pretty easy to spot. Lexus's image is riding on this car and I think they know it would be pretty foolish to deliver a product that were signficantly slower.
For the record, the red LFA was first seen briefly as far back as March 29th, in Japan. It was later put on static display at a car show in Japan. It wasn't spotted again until the Goodwood session and to my knowledge, no red LFA has since been seen back in Japan. I'm also fairly certain the whereabouts of the other LFA's can still be accounted for.


As to the possibility of the tripmeter, it's possible. But not likely. From the Motor Trend dyno video, we can see there is definitely a tripmeter labeled, when the function is enabled.

 

[330CIZHP]

So LFA's downforce converted from German

Rear: 37 KG Downforce
Front: 24 KG Lift
Front area: 2.01 meter square

So you can compare the downforce to other cars:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f152/downforce-anyone-86195/

LFA indeed has extremely high downforce on the rear due to the spoiler

 

[bum-man]

LOL! that forum is funny. All it seems like is a bunch of Corolla drivers arguing without using their grey matter.

 

[330CIZHP]

LOL! that forum is funny. All it seems like is a bunch of Corolla drivers arguing without using their grey matter.

Oops. Didn't realize, I posted the wrong thread (where I got the downforce article from). It was actually the downforce comparison thread from another board that I meant to post. Not the ClubLexus one.

Check my updated post now. Despite a small frontal area, the downforce over the rear seems too high.



Lexus LFA

Rear: 37 KG Downforce
Front: 24 KG Lift
Front area: 2.01 meter square






BMW X6 M

frontal surface area (A) 2.85m²
cw (cd) 0.38
airdragindex (cd x A) 1.07
at 200km/h (125mph)
lift front axle 69kg
lift rear axle 48kg


Audi R8 V10 5.2
(A) 2.024m²
(cd) 0.36
(cd x A) 0.72
at 200km/h
lift front 23kg
downforce rear 3kg

Mercedes SL 65 AMG Black Series
(A) 2.17 m²
(cd) 0.37
(cd × A) 0.80
at 200km/h
lift front 56kg
downforce rear 22kg

Corvette ZR1
(A) 2.059 m²
(cd) 0.32
(cd × A) 0.66
at 200km/h
lift front 39kg
lift rear 14kg

Ford GT
(A) 1.92 m²
(cd) 0.35
(cd × A) 0.67
at 200km/h
downforce front 44kg
lift rear 2kg

Mini Cooper S John Cooper Works
(A) 2.05 m²
(cd) 0.36
(cd × A) 0.73
at 200km/h
lift front 17kg
lift rear 20kg

Lexus IS-F
(A) 2.22 m²
(cd) 0.30
(cd × A) 0.67
at 200km/h
lift front 31kg
lift rear 7kg

Ford Focus RS
(A) 2,35 m²
(cd) 0,36
(cd × A) 0,86
at 200km/h
downforce front 8kg
lift rear 4kg

Nissan GT-R
(A) 2,30 m²
(cd) 0,31
(cd × A) 0,71
at 200km/h
lift front 3kg
downforce rear 8kg

Porsche GT3 facelift
(A) 2.04 m²
(cd) 0.32
(cd × A) 0.66
at 200km/h
downforce front 15kg
downforce rear 19kg

Audi TT-S
(A) 2.10 m²
(cd) 0.32
(cd × A) 0.68
at 200km/h
lift front 42kg
lift rear 17kg

Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4
(A) 1.93 m²
(cd) 0.35
(cd × A) 0.67
at 200km/h
downforce front 4kg
lift rear 37kg

Alpina B3 Coupe
(A): 2.14 m²
(cd): 0.29
(cd × A): 0.63
at 200km/h
lift front 12kg
lift rear 13kg

Aston Martin DBS
(A): 2.11 m²
(cd): 0.36
(cd × A): 0.76
at 200km/h
lift front 11kg
lift rear 10kg

Abarth Grande Punto esseesse
(A): 2.21 m²
(cd): 0.34
(cd × A): 0.75
at 200km/h
lift front 26kg
lift rear 31kg

Ferrari 430 Scuderia
(A): 2.02 m²
(cd): 0.33
(cd × A): 0.66
at 200km/h
lift rear 4kg

Lamborghini Murcielago LP 640
(A): 2.04 m²
(cd): 0.35
(cd × A): 0.71
at 200km/h
downforce front 30kg
downforce rear 11kg

 

[DeDe]

Look what I've found...

...strange isn't it?

 

[Mr Robert]

No comment in the atricle? I guess they are just using some archive footage... I mean, how many of those prototypes are there around for various testing?

 

[DeDe]

No comment in the atricle? I guess they are just using some archive footage... I mean, how many of those prototypes are there around for various testing?

No comment. And those are not archive pictures, as you can see they're doing the testing (see the GPS-antenne of the telemetry on the roof).

 

[Guibo]

I wouldn't put too much faith in the plate numbers.
http://www.germancarforum.com/lexus...sion-supercar-spy-pics-info-2.html#post198143

Would be interesting to see if we can get 2 red LFA's in the same shot.

 

[330CIZHP]

I thought there is one red prototype in Europe??

Anyway, is it just me or this early prototype was running a much more open exhaust since it looks like this early prototype is a lot louder than the production model we are seeing now. This early prototype sounds just unbelievable.

I could imagine the production model with a good aftermarket exhaust (maybe straight pipes), this will eclipse anything on the road:

Prototype:

Exclusive Spy Video: 2009 Lexus LF-A

Production:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/video/2011-lexus-lfa-road-test

I wouldn't put too much faith in the plate numbers.
http://www.germancarforum.com/lexus...sion-supercar-spy-pics-info-2.html#post198143

Would be interesting to see if we can get 2 red LFA's in the same shot.