Hot! Rust found in cabins of brand new BMW 1 Series, 3 Series!

[Giannis]

Could it be that the problem is merely oxidisation in areas of high humidity? Like in Melbourne and Sydney and the coastal region where Giannis lives... I'm no metallurgist but why aren't we as a community asking more probing questions?
Perhaps the galvanising of the steel parts in question performed by the OEM supplier was flawed? Is this BMW's fault or the OEM supplier's? Can we knowingly proclaim "cost-cutting!" without any real facts at hand? Yes, there's photographic evidence around, yes, we've got our own (highly credible by all accounts) first hand observations but what I want to know in order to form my own, informed opinion is: where, why and how much?

I doubt that it's an issue with areas of high humidity, as not all cars I saw were from my area. I saw one here, a test-drive F30 that came from up north for the test-drive and then sent back (yes, we don't have an F30 on display due to the melt down of the greek automotive market) and then 3 F20 that were delivered and operated in Athens.

Obviously, I don't have a material laboratory so that I can prove my claims, or test my thoughts. But, I live by the sea and so do many friends of mine with both cheap japanese and premium german cars. None of them had any issues with rust. The lack of galvanisation treatment wasn't a guess. It was what one of those 3 F20 owners told me, when he had his seat frames removed and sent to a workshop to be treated as they should: Sandblasting for rust removal, galvanisation, prime coat and then black paint. They (workshop mechanics) told him that this was a classic case of rust in non-galvanised steel. They didn't know that this came from an F20. Do they have a material lab? No, but they have experience.

That's what I heard and I wrote it here, also stating my source. Someone might find it usefull, and the rest will ignore it. I'm fine with that. It's nothing more than my personal experience and should be valued as that: "personal experience of a random forum member. No photographic evidence".

Yes, it's a defect - no denying this - but defects (and the management thereof) are actually part and parcel of the process of bringing an automobile to market. Not even glorious BMW is immune to the potential for human fallibility.

Sure, everything may show a defect and up to a point it's acceptable. My Clio wasn't flawless and had it's idle revs regulating valves replaced 2 times before working properly, under warranty. It works fine since then. My Volvo had an issues with an ABS sensor that resulted in an Anti-Spin error message and was also fixed under warranty. Both are acceptable, made me angry for a whole morning, had me cursing the swedish automotive industry, but then I calmed down and called it a day. The issue never showed up again.

But rust is a different thing. Rust can build up under the surface of the material and you can only realise it when it's too late. At least in my field it's very common, with reinforcement steel bars rusting inside the concrete (for a variety of reasons) and then suddently bursting out. It's a big problem and it's too late for a small fix.

Yes, the rust in the seat frames I experienced was only on the surface of the material. But my problem is not where it showed up, but why it showed up. Why did I see rust in 5 new cars? Or, in a bolder tone, why did I see rust in all the F20 I saw? That's a question that I am eagerly wait to be answered.

And once again, if I had bought an F30 and didn't want to sell it soon, I'd do what my before mentioned friend did. Sandblast, galvanise, prime coat and paint. After that, the rust issue will never show up again. But it will cost me in time and money, and I can't understand why I have to spend more money on a new car, when I shouldn't.

Instead what we have here is the typical harbinger of doom level of discussion on GCF with all but a very few individuals actually contributing to a greater level of understanding on the issue. It's a free world with free speech - but if you people can't recognise that we have the natural, healthy level of opinion polarisation (i.e. the two extreme views) ranging from, doom 'n gloom, to, how bad is this really, and that sensibility has to reside somewhere in the middle, then I must ask: where have you been for the last ten years? [Don't answer - it's rhetorical, food for thought...]

Sure, but isn't that the nature of automotive forums? Many opinions, some polarised, some down to earth, discussion generated from a fight, from a spyshot, from an opinion, from nothing. It's not as if we are all automotive industry insiders and discuss our little dark secrets.

Why though all the conjecture around the extent of the problem? Out of the 100 000s of F20 and F30s manufactured how many specific incidents do we have on record? No one knows. On the internet a couple of photos in a couple of threads and the next thing it's an epidemic.

Actually, I wonder how many owners noticed this rust. Out of the 5 cars I checked, none of the owners thought to take a look under the seat. Now the one is having it repaired under warranty, one is having it properly repaired at a workshop, one is a test drive F30 and I don't care, and the other two cars belong to the wifes of two friends, so they don't really care.

I've seen 5 F20/F30, all of them had rusted seat frames, none of the owners had noticed it. Maybe I'm crazy...

 

[martinbo]

I'm not making excuses for it. If it was my car I would be first in line to beat the door of my dealer down.

But, mini_cooper4, as a businessman you'll know that part and parcel of managing a business is the management of problems. In this instance I would be compelled to assess:

- what is the problem?
- what is the frequency of the problem?
- what is the cause of the problem?
- what is the risk posed to my customer by the problem?
- what is the risk posed to my business by the problem?
- what action do I need to take in order to mitigate the above risks?

Unsightly surface oxidisation with no structural integrity risk that's nonetheless grossly unacceptable in a premium automobile? Yeah, I'd buy that...
Cars' dashboards falling in a heap, seats crumbling to pieces and customers inhaling the rust dust blown onto their faces from the ventilation system? Sounds rather extreme to me.

BMW like any other car maker would be compelled to issue a notice to the public (like they have done in the past e.g. M5 fuel pump) if the above points warranted such action. I doubt very much that "they're just sweeping it under the carpet".

 

[martinbo]

@Martin,

And since E90 & E87 families - which were getting the seat frames & cockpits from the same production site - are not suffering from rust problem, we can assume with a high degree of certainty that there was some cost-cutting applied in F30 & F20 case, when it comes to seat frame material anti-corrosion process etc.

Conversely, who can argue that it's not as a result of a faulty manufacturing process that had nothing to do with premeditated cost cutting?

The debate is circular - too much conjecture without enough of the real facts at hand.

 

[Giannis]

Conversely, who can argue that it's not as a result of a faulty manufacturing process that had nothing to do with premeditated cost cutting?

Then again, how much does this matter? Whether it's a manufacturing process fault or a cost-cutting outcome, your seat frames are still rusted.

 

[martinbo]

A fundamental tenet of discussion in this thread sees BMW being vilified for "cost-cutting" - the low down dirty shame of it. And here I am, debating this... or should I not be?

 

[mini_cooper4]

I'm not making excuses for it. If it was my car I would be first in line to beat the door of my dealer down.

But, mini_cooper4, as a businessman you'll know that part and parcel of managing a business is the management of problems. In this instance I would be compelled to assess:

- what is the problem?
- what is the frequency of the problem?
- what is the cause of the problem?
- what is the risk posed to my customer by the problem?
- what is the risk posed to my business by the problem?
- what action do I need to take in order to mitigate the above risks?

Unsightly surface oxidisation with no structural integrity risk that's nonetheless grossly unacceptable in a premium automobile? Yeah, I'd buy that...
Cars' dashboards falling in a heap, seats crumbling to pieces and customers inhaling the rust dust blown onto their faces from the ventilation system? Sounds rather extreme to me.

BMW like any other car maker would be compelled to issue a notice to the public (like they have done in the past e.g. M5 fuel pump) if the above points warranted such action. I doubt very much that "they're just sweeping it under the carpet".

I guess you're not following this thread as closely as I do
As I've said manny times already the rust is not just superficial in some cases and it's already eating the metal... we have it documented with pictures in this thread.
You are totally right about the businessman's point of view but the bold part is where you are wrong thus making the answers to your "business questions" a bit different than someone might have thought they would be.

 

[rollo]

Hard to even type the word rust without cringing. Having owned five BMW's, (that's right five in a row) and speaking as a long-term customer, I am absolutely shocked that this happened. And since we are being objective, could someone please point to a case in recent times where this type of "defect" (rust) has happened to another manufacturer? Sure defects are part of new car roll outs all the time as pointed out above, but rust? I think not.

Also, we did review things like galvanic reactions as a possible cause of this problem much earlier in the thread and also covered where the post-treatment of the parts in question occured. It was suggested based on research that a BMW factory and not a supplier was responsible.

Seems like we did ask relevant questions and informed the community of a serious problem.

 

[martinbo]

I guess you're not following this thread as closely as I do
As I've said manny times already the rust is not just superficial in some cases and it's already eating the metal... we have it documented with pictures in this thread.
You are totally right about the businessman's point of view but the bold part is where you are wrong thus making the answers to your "business questions" a bit different than someone might have thought they would be.

You're misinterpreting my words.

a) When I said "I'd buy that" it was an indication of which end of the story I was leaning toward - not in any way a suggestion of fact. It implies to which end my opinion lies.
b) but for the sake of discussion continuity please post up that picture that gives evidence of the rust "eating the metal".

 

[martinbo]

Additionally, I must also add that I find it ironic that the author of "Debate the topic and not the member" has no trouble stereotyping and criticising a group of members that he disagrees with on this issue in such a cynical and self-enlightened way.

I beg your pardon!

Please point out where I stereotype and criticise a group of members?

 

[rollo]

I beg your pardon!

Please point out where I stereotype and criticise a group of members?

It was your "harbinger of gloom and doom, only a few here are actually" post. Note that I removed that section of my post soon after I re-read it so as not to amplify that personal nature of this discussion. And before I read your response BTW.

My view of your posts on this subject is that you are being to BMW centric with how you are viewing the issue. It's about the customers martinbo, it always is. And any good businessman knows that. This is certainly not an isolated problem, we have quantified that. And this type of problem, invokes an understandably harsh reaction.

 

[Tdgiangr]

If I was an owner of a F20/F30 and found out that my seat base frames were rusted, I would have informed my dealer and, in turn, my dealer should inform BMW AG about the incident. The problem is that the rust issue is hidden and noone is going to take a look under the seats deliberately. I think that we should spread the word (as much as we can) and just wait for the results.

I 've checked other fora and it seems that every dealer (in various parts of the world) comes up with a "similar" solution for the same issue, which makes me keep wondering: Did the dealers contact BMW AG or not?

 

[rollo]

^

I would hope and assume that BMW AG is aware of the problem by now.

 

[martinbo]

It was your "harbinger of gloom and doom, only a few here are actually" post.

Incidentally, you were one of the individuals I grouped with being part of "the few". i.e. with that galvanic reaction post of yours. Interestingly you chose to take it personally. What I was referring to, rurella, is more the increasing prevalence of the doom and gloom psyche perpetuated in general on this forum but by certain, regular protagonists. Complain, complain, complain is all I seem to hear these days.

Note that I removed that section of my post soon after I re-read it so as not to amplify that personal nature of this discussion. And before I read your response BTW.

Thanks.

My view of your posts on this subject is that you are being to BMW centric with how you are viewing the issue. It's about the customers martinbo, it always is. And any good businessman knows that. This is certainly not an isolated problem, we have quantified that. And this type of problem, invokes an understandably harsh reaction.

I'm not siding with BMW, I'm debating in favour of the other potential side of the story. Why would you take exception to me for doing this? Sorry but you're still acting too personally.

I know exactly what it's about. I have customers. It's why I said this:

- what is the risk posed to my customer by the problem?

Customers don't always get what they want. How one retains their loyalty and trust is the next story in this saga.

 

[EnI]

Even if it's a faulty process it's bad for BMW anyway. Actually it's even worse - since a company like BMW simply CAN NOT make such basic mistake in the basic process (as anti-corrosion protection of metal is ... it's not rocket science!).

"No structural integrity risk" ... perhaps not, but it's still a major image problem then, since a rust in a cabin of a premium brand car is a marketing disaster IMHO. Not to mention cloth / leather can be damaged due to rust (coloration) etc.

And what bothers me is the silence from Munich. They've been informed about the issue, and still no official response! A recall would be a fair move in this case.

And until this issue is solved, my E31 320d Touring purchase is put on ice. Perhaps I'll opt for second-hand F11 520d, or even check some other brand. Since rust has broken my trust in BMW.

 

[south]

And until this issue is solved, my E31 320d Touring purchase is put on ice.

LOL, BMW will be so disappointed.


Best regards,
south

 

[EnI]

No, South I will disappointed.

Since I want that car so much ... but rusty seats are an absolute deal breaker. If somebody's ready to buy a car despite rusty seats ... he should go ahead on his own risk. I'm waiting for the issue to be resolved first.

And yes, BMW should be worried. The worst thing that can happen is when your most eager advocate turns against you. Criticism of BMW from my mouth is quite influential IRL ... among my family, relatives, neighbors, friends, colleagues, business partners etc. On a low-volume market even 50 canceled deals are A LOT.

Regarding the tone of your comment ... How old are you?

 

[rollo]

I'm not siding with BMW, I'm debating in favour of the other potential side of the story. Why would you take exception to me for doing this? Sorry but you're still acting too personally.

I know exactly what it's about. I have customers. It's why I said this:

- what is the risk posed to my customer by the problem?

.

It's how will my customers be affected by this, not if they are at risk in my view. Of all the questions you posed, one dealt with the customer. The rest dealt with BMW. And like you, I have a little experience in this regard as well having worked with our customers for over 28 years. We design, manufacture and sell products BTW.

Regarding your other statement about how I reacted to your post. I still read an absoluteness in your words that troubles me I suppose. "Sorry but you're still acting too personally" for instance could/should have been phrased differently.

So with that said. What is the other potential side of the story that interests you so? Whether this is a result of a BMW cost-cutting initiative or not? Even if the aforementioned were true, they certainly didn't anticipate this outcome. To me, the real story here is the fact that this could and did happen in 2012 and BMW's reaction to same. Where's the recall? A notice too customers. Anything official yet?

 

[south]

Regarding the tone of your comment ... How old are you?

Well, old enough to tell an E31 from an F31. Other than that, it's not worth engaging in this "discussion".


Best regards,
south

 

[EnI]

^ It's was an obvious typo.

 

[rollo]

Any updates on this issue?