Vs RoadAndTrack: Lexus IS350 F-Sport vs BMW 335i M-Sport vs Cadillac ATS vs Q50 Sport

[Baron Grüner]

So then "objectively" in your opinion, it would be accurate of him to say the IS350 F-Sport is "nothing more than an appliance"?

if I say that lexy is nothing more than appliance TO ME then it is accurate. which is exactly what I said. also, talking about my credibility you did not say that its your opinion. you said it as it was a fact.

now, think about this for a while.

 

[330CIZHP]

if I say that lexy is nothing more than appliance TO ME then it is accurate. which is exactly what I said. also, talking about my credibility you did not say that its your opinion. you said it as it was a fact.

now, think about this for a while.

No disrespect intended, I did not want to make a blanket statement and I apologize for not being clear that it was my sole opinion. I don't think I want to continue this argument. I would leave you with your own statement

"It is just that the IS objectively does not work for me".

Do you see anything confusing about this statement? The objective elements according to reviews show the IS350 brakes better, suffers less brake fade under heavy use when the brakes get hot, is more willing to change direction slalom because of a steering more willing to respond to the driver's inputs directly without an off-center dead spot that the 3 M Sport has.

So a car objectively that has better qualities would not work for someone?

Anyway, that was source of my confusion as the sentence makes more sense that you are saying objectively Lexus does none of the above better because it is nothing more than an appliance.

 

[Baron Grüner]

how can it work man, bmw has OBJECTIVELY much better engine, is faster, and I dont care what they said about lexus gearbox, bmw's is just much better. it just is. bmw would win the test also and actually be OBJECTIVELY better if they did better job judging styling.

and not even to mention a matter of space, lexus is somehow much smaller inside which I presume is irrelevant if you are small or average size/height.

 

[330CIZHP]

That is your subjective opinion since it is only one piece of the puzzle you put there.

Objectively, performance is a lot more than straight line speed. Handling and driving dynamics is clearly where the IS350 F-Sport is superior, which is why it won all of the comparisons so far (in F-Sport trim) that it brakes, turns better and feels like a much smaller car due to the direct and responsive steering. These are just as objective as acceleration is.

So no objectively the 3 series is not the better car. It is subjectively to YOU so you exactly confirmed why I brought up the credibility issues in the first place.

That is why I find it so hilarious. Back in 2005, all of these magazines used to sing praises of the 3-series and a 330i E46 won over a much more powerful 260 HP G35 and all of us BMW loyalists fought tooth and nail to prove the win was deserving because BMWs are never about straight line speed and that the 330 E46 had much better driving dynamics and response. M3 became the benchmark through its driving dynamics and ability to do everything well and not just straight line speed.

Now that the tables are turned, it has become all about straight line speed. I find it very amusing personally.

how can it work man, bmw has OBJECTIVELY much better engine, is faster, and I dont care what they said about lexus gearbox, bmw's is just much better. it just is. bmw would win the test also and actually be OBJECTIVELY better if they didnt factored in styling which is entirely SUBJECTIVE cathegory.

and not even to mention a matter of space, lexus is somehow much smaller inside which I presume is irrelevant if you are small or average size/height.

 

[Baron Grüner]

Objectively, performance is a lot more than straight line speed.

yes, but the choice of what sort of objective performance I choose is mine, so is subjective. and thats what I said. though is case sensitive I gotta say.

Handling and driving dynamics is clearly where the IS350 F-Sport is much superior, which is why it won all of the comparisons so far (in F-Sport trim) that it brakes, turns better and feels like a much smaller car due to the very direct and responsive steering.

That is why I find it so hilarious. Back in 2005, all of these magazines used to sing praises of the 3-series and a 330i E46 won over a much more powerful 260 HP G35 and all of us BMW loyalists fought tooth and nail to prove the win was deserving because BMWs are never about straight line speed and that the 330 E46 had much better driving dynamics and response.

Now that the tables are turned, it has become all about straight line speed. I find it very amusing personally.

that exactly is a subjective choice of sort of objective performance everyone is entitled to that Im talking about. or for example the engine gap might be greater than the steering and what not gap, likewise engine gap between e46 and g35 was smaller than the handling gap etc

 

[PHYBENZ]

No way Mercedes gives the current C class to compete with all these brand new models, same with Audi

 

[330CIZHP]

that exactly is a subjective choice of sort of objective performance everyone is entitled to that Im talking about. or for example the engine gap might be greater than the steering and what not gap, likewise engine gap between e46 and g35 was smaller than the handling gap etc

Huh? Are you serious?

E46 330i (non ZHP)

Power: 225 HP (non ZHP)
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 14.8 seconds (non ZHP)

G35

Power: 260 HP
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 14.2 seconds

F30 335i

Power: 300 HP (Underrated by 20 HP)
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 13.3 seconds

IS350 F-Sport

Power: 306 HP
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 13.8 seconds

You think the acceleration gap between E46 330i vs G35 was smaller than the gap between IS350 F-Sport and 335i?

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

And the as someone who worked for BMW,and drove their cares day in and day out, They don't handle like they use to. I would take the IS350 F-Sport home over the BMW too. BMW's use to own the corners. Today, everyone but BMW seems to know how to corner. For Pete's sake, the M5 is losing every single comparison because it can't handle a corner and is only able to go fast in a straight line. The E63 AMG 4Matic trumped the best from BMW. Houston, we have a problem. Just my .2 cents.

 

[Rolf]

Thanks Martin for the great comment, I am a true motoring enthusiast and always prefer to drive the cars myself before settling on what the magazines say as they can be very biased towards certain makes (Autocar with Jags/LR etc)

Actually after I drove the BMW i went to the Mercedes dealership to go and test a C250CDI as they didn't have a C220CDI in the garage. I was also impressed by the Merc, IMO the interior felt nicer than the F30, the build quality and materials used are better and look of the switches and controls for the AC etc are really classy, but it did take me a while to familiarize myself with the C Class controls as they so different from the BMW. As for powertrain I would say the C250 lags behind the 320D in a few things, the throttle was much stiffer and engine much less responsive at low revs when flooring the throttle, I would say past 2000rpm it has the equal of the BMW for power, but the engine is also more noisier than the BMW. The 7speed auto box is also not quite as fast as the BMW 8speed box in shifting gear in Sport manual mode mainly due the Benz side shift against the flick forward and back shifter of the BMW. The Merc steering felt more or less the same as BMW in weight and feel (both quite light), ride quality maybe a little better in Benz, the infotainment system display and instruments of the Merc look slightly dated compared to BMW.

Overall verdict I would say they are very close, but for me the BMW would be my choice due to the powertrain and also that it is more modern and looks slightly better.

This week I will want to take the new Lexus IS for a drive and give you my verdict maybe I will be surprised!!!!!

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

My goodness. At last, someone who's actually driven an F30 BMW 320d and given an objective and informed appraisal of the car.

I think Rolf is my internet long-lost-twin.

 

[330CIZHP]

Looks like you would be driving the IS250. I don't think you will be too impressed.

Even with the F-Sport package, it does not come with the variable gear ratio steering and also the adaptive suspension (which gives the sport+ mode with the shocks in the stiffest settings). These are exclusive to the F-Sport IS350.

Thanks Martin for the great comment, I am a true motoring enthusiast and always prefer to drive the cars myself before settling on what the magazines say as they can be very biased towards certain makes (Autocar with Jags/LR etc)

Actually after I drove the BMW i went to the Mercedes dealership to go and test a C250CDI as they didn't have a C220CDI in the garage. I was also impressed by the Merc, IMO the interior felt nicer than the F30, the build quality and materials used are better and look of the switches and controls for the AC etc are really classy, but it did take me a while to familiarize myself with the C Class controls as they so different from the BMW. As for powertrain I would say the C250 lags behind the 320D in a few things, the throttle was much stiffer and engine much less responsive at low revs when flooring the throttle, I would say past 2000rpm it has the equal of the BMW for power, but the engine is also more noisier than the BMW. The 7speed auto box is also not quite as fast as the BMW 8speed box in shifting gear in Sport manual mode mainly due the Benz side shift against the flick forward and back shifter of the BMW. The Merc steering felt more or less the same as BMW in weight and feel (both quite light), ride quality maybe a little better in Benz, the infotainment system display and instruments of the Merc look slightly dated compared to BMW.

Overall verdict I would say they are very close, but for me the BMW would be my choice due to the powertrain and also that it is more modern and looks slightly better.

This week I will want to take the new Lexus IS for a drive and give you my verdict maybe I will be surprised!!!!!

 

[Rolf]

I agree with u the Lexus is cramped inside compared to the BMW, less elbow space, much less back space, less headroom, which for me is a big factor when choosing a car as I have to keep the driver seat far back for my frame and if I got similar sized person behind me then with the Lexus I would have to move the seat more forward which would make driving the car uncomfortable.

how can it work man, bmw has OBJECTIVELY much better engine, is faster, and I dont care what they said about lexus gearbox, bmw's is just much better. it just is. bmw would win the test also and actually be OBJECTIVELY better if they did better job judging styling.

and not even to mention a matter of space, lexus is somehow much smaller inside which I presume is irrelevant if you are small or average size/height.

 

[Deckhook]

Are all these wins for Lexus happening in the United States?

If that's the case then it might explain it for me at least because America has taken to Lexus way more than the other side of the pond. Good car that does nothing wrong yet its style and driving character just don't appeal to me.

 

[Zafiro]

And the as someone who worked for BMW,and drove their cares day in and day out, They don't handle like they use to. I would take the IS350 F-Sport home over the BMW too. BMW's use to own the corners. Today, everyone but BMW seems to know how to corner. For Pete's sake, the M5 is losing every single comparison because it can't handle a corner and is only able to go fast in a straight line. The E63 AMG 4Matic trumped the best from BMW. Houston, we have a problem. Just my .2 cents.

You can thank the AWD system for the quicker laptimes. A RWD E63 wouldnt be as fast in the corners like the 4Matic version either (which we seen on some review earlier). Believe it or not but there been comparison reviews where M5 been faster than E63 4Matic around a track. How do you explain that?
And did you buy your M3 E92 based on how they way the car took the corners?
You are also forgetting that the latest M5 is quicker than M5 E60 around various tracks, does that mean M5 E60 also cant handle a corner?

Saying "everyone but BMW seems to know how to corner" is obviously wrong. New bimmers arent worse than previous versions around corners, its just that the competition is catching up.

 

[Human]

Saying "everyone but BMW seems to know how to corner" is obviously wrong. New bimmers arent worse than previous versions around corners, its just that the competition is catching up.

This is, for some time being now "revelations" it seems. Or rather logically then. Having just so many (of which the majority is German derived anyway) OEM Suppliers + not only by economies of scale but for various other industry reasons, so also does OE's share the same supplier+collaborated Supply chain/manufacturer/developers stuff/parts/tech.
My point? Simple, the uniqueness that differentiated or made some brands really exclusive is gone. Mainstream (Premium or non-premium) products are only different by some obviously visual markers and in a more 'hardcore, way Engines. IMHO - BMW still has the advantage of having (even if maybe just) the better engine ranges. Whilst for everything else that matters in e.g. the mid-size Premium Sport Sedan segment is more or less so 'the same' Yes, so many will totally flip or freak out about the reality I have 'revealed' here that they will HATE me. Fine, go ahead, the only one, one has to convince is oneself. But it's just so happened that looking at the new W205 C-class one realises that Mercedes-Benz is seeking to bring back what is M-B in it's core DNA, that is opulence, luxury and comfort. The mid-size offering from DAIMLER is so much closer to it's W222 big brother, so much so that it can really ruin E-class sales forever, also niche seems to bring the best differentiation - again IMO. Why? Easy answer again: Survival. And looking at recent sales charts it seems to work for them.

Just my 10c. But think about it, what brings difference these days? Technology? Definitely not. You can have all the tech in any car if you're willing to tick it off on the options list and pay for it. The same goes for Sporty or Comfort drive, AWD or RWD or FWD or (FWD with AWD) or (RWD with AWD), Heavier Steering feel or Lighter Steering feel? Etc. Etc. Etc.

In the end (mainstream/mass market) it is the designers and 'who's got the best deal' that is going to win customers (not to even mention feul economy etc.)
We are not talking M, RS, AMG etc. here that is not mass market.

Mainstream + Mass market cars are getting boring actually. I certainly do not want a midsize sedan anymore, I want something different these days. The rest is so boring! A BMW 3er or Audi A4 or any other Lexus IS and C-class is so 'yesterday' that is why I'd rather have a niche product from this segment like a 4er or Lexus coupe, I simply don't want a little (everybody has one) premium midsize sedan. That's me, the buyer they have to deal with. Hence coupe's, crossovers, 4 door coupes, Sport-back's etc. existence...

Just for interest sake, try this out.

What really, really, really, REALLY set these two apart from each other?

 

[Baron Grüner]

Huh? Are you serious?

E46 330i (non ZHP)

Power: 225 HP (non ZHP)
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 14.8 seconds (non ZHP)

G35

Power: 260 HP
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 14.2 seconds

F30 335i

Power: 300 HP (Underrated by 20 HP)
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 13.3 seconds

IS350 F-Sport

Power: 306 HP
Acceleration 1/4 mile: 13.8 seconds

You think the acceleration gap between E46 330i vs G35 was smaller than the gap between IS350 F-Sport and 335i?

are YOU serious? just numbers? lol man, numbers tell half the story, anyone who has actually driven a car knows that.
and the funiest part is that I was speculating, not giving claims. I honestly dont know nothing about g35, never sat in it. so relax.

 

[330CIZHP]

are YOU serious? just numbers? lol man, numbers tell half the story, anyone who has actually driven a car knows that.
and the funiest part is that I was speculating, not giving claims. I honestly dont know nothing about g35, never sat in it. so relax.

OMG, I am done killing brain cells trying to politely with some sense of humor point out your blatant biases and one-sided view of everything. I even took the extra step to apologized to you to take the high road on not being clear that in my opinion you have lost credbility.

Yet, this time around instead of admitting you made an inaccurate factual statement, you try and insult me? You should really be standing corrected at this stage for making such a one-sided statement.

You did say this. Did you not?

that exactly is a subjective choice of sort of objective performance everyone is entitled to that Im talking about. or for example the engine gap might be greater than the steering and what not gap, likewise engine gap between e46 and g35 was smaller than the handling gap etc

You said the acceleration gap between E46 330i and G35 was smaller than the handling gap. Did you not? How did you draw that conclusion? The handling numbers of the G35 and 330i were quite closely matched yet the acceleration numbers were much bigger due to the 35 horsepower deficit. The 330i won based on steering accuracy, smaller compact size aiding its athleticism and agility due to a much shorter wheel bases and interior. Not because the acceleration gap was small enough to not tip the scale in favor of the G35.

The 335 vs IS350 F-Sport on the other hand make almost the same horsepower, the 335 is quicker from 0 - 100 km/h due to better gearing. The IS350 F-Sport won primarily on driving dynamics and interior.

In my opinion, the 330i winning over G35 for better driving dynamics, interor was no different than the IS350 F-Sport winning over the 335i for better driving dynamics and interior. It is apples to apples there. That is what my point was.

You made a highly inaccurate statement and I politely with some sense humor tried to point out the "acceleration difference" comment through some facts and figures.

I am done killing brain cells in this thread. Ban me from this board if moderators like, if I ruffled some feathers again. Geez!

 

[Baron Grüner]

OMG, I am done killing brain cells trying to politely with some sense of humor point out your blatant biases and one-sided view of everything. I even took the extra step to apologized to you to take the high road on not being clear that in my opinion you have lost credbility.

Yet, this time around instead of admitting you made an inaccurate factual statement, you try and insult me? You should really be standing corrected at this stage for making such a one-sided statement.

You did say this. Did you not?



You said the acceleration gap between E46 330i and G35 was smaller than the handling gap. Did you not? How did you draw that conclusion? The handling numbers of the G35 and 330i were quite closely matched yet the acceleration numbers were much bigger due to the 35 horsepower deficit. The 330i won based on steering accuracy, smaller compact size aiding its athleticism and agility due to a much shorter wheel bases and interior. Not because the acceleration gap was small enough to not tip the scale in favor of the G35.

The 335 vs IS350 F-Sport on the other hand make almost the same horsepower, the 335 is quicker from 0 - 100 km/h due to better gearing. The IS350 F-Sport won primarily on driving dynamics and interior.

In my opinion, the 330i winning over G35 for better driving dynamics, interor was no different than the IS350 F-Sport winning over the 335i for better driving dynamics and interior. It is apples to apples there. That is what my point was.

You made a highly inaccurate statement and I politely with some sense humor tried to point out the "acceleration difference" comment through some facts and figures.

I am done killing brain cells in this thread. Ban me from this board if moderators like, if I ruffled some feathers again. Geez!

lol I love this guy, I really do...

all I said (concentrate now) was that point god knows how boring much of a second faster nisan g something or other acceleration time was not worth how much bmw e46 was better in handling department, bcs its so much better. and that was just side speculation to answer your boring little story of some trauma you had 8 years ago when some bimmer men attacked you or whatever was your story in which Im not particularly interested. so in other words - I was just polite to keep convo.

now, about things I am interested - for me bmw's engine and gearbox are so much better than the lexus ones that lexus's steering cant compensate that because it really isnt that better. do you get it now?

 

[Monster]

All off topic discussions have been removed, if anyone has any suggestions or complaints about this forum, please sent a message to the admin and the moderators, and keep discussions on topic.

 

[Deckhook]

I take by the lack of answer to my question from those championing the Lexus brand my opinion all of Lexus wins were indeed in the US.

Then I'm not that surprised by these results, but over here its never fared nearly as well and neither has its sales which suggests to me that their styling and driving characteristics don't suit the European customer.

 

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

All true. I read that as well and how they sung praises.

However, in all fairness to the other engines in the comparison, very surprisingly they never even mentioned anything about the turbo lag N55 has and the throttle response (or the lack thereof).

Unless I am some sort of a freak who can sense things others can't, the turbo lag is very very noticeable in N55. I noticed how as the rpms climb, the engine did not respond until it hit somewhere close to 2000 rpm where all of sudden there was a surge in torque.

How they never picked up on that, is simply beyond me.

It begs to be noticed....The ZF 8 speed I know for a fact is absolutely amazing....but somehow, BMW has screwed it up. The transmission shifts so slow I could eat a cake and come back and it still wouldn't have finished shifting. The only two cars this seems to effect is the 3 series without the sport transmission and the X5.