Porsche wants to help develop RS-badged Audis

[Merc1]

That could work, but Maybach, Lagonda and even Aston-Martin itself have a long ways to go in matching Porsche and Bentley and Bugatti overall. The sheer engineering might of that VW group is staggering. Mercedes-Benz by itself can match or beat anyone of them, but MB would be working triple time tyring to bring Aston, Maybach and Lagonda up to speed. McLaren is most likely out the picture going foward.

M

 

[warot]

That could work, but Maybach, Lagonda and even Aston-Martin itself have a long ways to go in matching Porsche and Bentley and Bugatti overall. The sheer engineering might of that VW group is staggering. Mercedes-Benz by itself can match or beat anyone of them, but MB would be working triple time tyring to bring Aston, Maybach and Lagonda up to speed. McLaren is most likely out the picture going foward.

M

I wouldn't be sure if MB alone can match the might of what Audi might become. Here's the example I'm thinking:

Audi are trying to design the new RS6. They've got the know-how from Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley. That covers everything from great interior, engines, suspensions... everything. Ok, so it might turn out to be a hodgepodge... but that's not a bad bin to dip into.

MB trying to design the E63. Sure they can do it themselves maybe. But they'll have to put in so much more resources. Even if they had AM to help them... imo that's still no match to the behemoth that might become the PAH group.

 

[SKY]

I really doubt about how can Audi beat Mercedes great sport saloons. I doubt some day we will see an A8 having 600hp.

 

[Cashmere]

Interesting news. Hope it becomes a reality.

btw, A5 sportback = 4 door A5? Isn't that what the A4 already is?

 

[EnI]

Interesting news. Hope it becomes a reality.

btw, A5 sportback = 4 door A5? Isn't that what the A4 already is?

It's a hatchback. 5dr.

A5 SB = A5 5dr hatchback.

 

[Poverty]

i dont see what porsche have to offer the quattro division of audi. they are doing a perfectly good job themselves!

 

[Tarek]

MB´s answer to Audi,Porsche ,Lambo , Bugatti and Bentley should be

Mercedes, Mclaren, Aston Martin Lagonda, Maybach... And possibly someday allthough i hope that day never comes
PAGANI..

THey will never sell as many cars.. but they would sure as hell look better.. and have more appeal..

But thats just a distant dream

Man that is the ultimate wet dream MB fanatic can have

I wouldn't be sure if MB alone can match the might of what Audi might become. Here's the example I'm thinking:

Audi are trying to design the new RS6. They've got the know-how from Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley. That covers everything from great interior, engines, suspensions... everything. Ok, so it might turn out to be a hodgepodge... but that's not a bad bin to dip into.

MB trying to design the E63. Sure they can do it themselves maybe. But they'll have to put in so much more resources. Even if they had AM to help them... imo that's still no match to the behemoth that might become the PAH group.

Good points Warot but i think u are underestimating MB here,do u realize that MB is the ONLY car maker in the world that SEVERAL 600hp+ cars in it's lineup? which beats in power figure all the cars from VAG Veyron excluded.

So IMO MB won't have a mere or the slightest problem in smoking VAG's premium brand but the thing MB needs is just an ultra exclusive badges like McLaren,Lagona,MM and hopefully Pagani(sorry Artist) and of course the snag is just MB,AMG and the absoultely mad HWA will really have to work their ass off BIG TIME with all that as Marcus pointed out.

 

[Merc1]

I wouldn't be sure if MB alone can match the might of what Audi might become. Here's the example I'm thinking:

Audi are trying to design the new RS6. They've got the know-how from Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Bentley. That covers everything from great interior, engines, suspensions... everything. Ok, so it might turn out to be a hodgepodge... but that's not a bad bin to dip into.

MB trying to design the E63. Sure they can do it themselves maybe. But they'll have to put in so much more resources. Even if they had AM to help them... imo that's still no match to the behemoth that might become the PAH group.

Sure they can. Mercedes wrote the book on engineering and they've already proven they can do interiors, big hp, and suspension. I seriously doubt those other brands worked with Audi on the current RS6, but I get what you're saying which I why I said that MB could take on any of them singularly, not the whole VW empire. They'd need help to do that for sure. In reality Lambo is already under Audi's influence as Bentley and Bugatti are under VW's. The only real new entity would be Porsche. I have no doubt that Mercedes' R&D machine could hold its own as long as MB is healthy. Add to that Aston-Martin, HWA and that thin tie with Mclaren and you've got a match easily.


M

 

[EnI]

i dont see what porsche have to offer the quattro division of audi. they are doing a perfectly good job themselves!

That's the whole point.
Porsche wants an access to Audi R&D ... to get the know-how.

"Help" in Porsche terms means "We get there with false intention to help you, but what we really want is to acquire your know-how. You know - since we are selfish swine from Stuttgart. But not the ones with the Star."

 

[LaArtist]

OT:
Stuttgart RoX

 

[Merc1]

"Help" in Porsche terms means "We get there with false intention to help you, but what we really want is to acquire your know-how. You know - since we are selfish swine from Stuttgart. But not the ones with the Star."

Is this why Porsche and Mercedes don't trust each other anymore?


M

 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

One of the first Audis in line for a Porsche makeover, once the company directors give the green light, is said to be the upcoming A5 Sportback, a more practical version of the A5 coupé with two more doors and a bigger boot.

I'm sorry, but that is just typical crap from Autocar! Why would there be any need to develop an A5 in an estate/station wagon style, when they already have an identical spec'd version - called the A4 Avant. Don't forget that the new A4 shares the same identical floorpan/chassis and running gear as the A5.

Yet another case of Autocar talking from where the sun doesn't shine from!

 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

As said many times before: Porsche is going after Audi's R&D resources, premium brands VAG owns, and the economy of scales VAG offers as a group - owning a bunch of economy brands (VW, Skoda, Seat). That's Porsche's interest in VAG.

Be sure when Porsche AG gains over 75% stake in VAG they will start to reorganize VAG. A Premium division will be formed (Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti), and will later be either moved directly under Porsche AG roof, or just being managed by Porsche people directly.

In few years Porsche will directly manage all the PAH premium brands: Porsche, Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti.

But Porsche will not get hold of Bugatti. Bugatti is owned by Volkswagen France, and although Volkswagen France is still a subsidiary of Volkswagen AG (Volkswagen Group) - because Bugatti is owned by VW France, and is headquartered in France, it is protected under French law, and not German law.

The only way Porsche would get ownership of Bugatti would be if VW AG were to effectively close down Volkswagen France, but I can't see the French government allowing that to happen.

 

[Audi69]

Porche have nothing to offer Audi. Porche will only gain from the takeover. Audi are doing fine and getting better and better on their own. Audi's first attempt at road going sports car betters what Porche can offer in similar segment.

Tell me wjhat Porche bring to the table that Audi can't do themselves? And before you put it I don't want to read about increasing profit margins and less weight-Audi are making loads of money all on there own getting bigger and bigger and developing third generation aluminium space frame.

 

[coolraoul]

This Porsche story seems to put everyone out of their minds... Why all the stuff about Maybach, Bugatti, Lagonda...

BMW, Audi and Mercedes are living thanks to their "smaller" models, especially 3/A4/C and 5/A6/E. Only MB makes a lot of money with the S. Other modelms aren't at all core-products.

And the problem here is not Porsche helping Audi developping their RS-Models that sells in ridiculous numbers.

The thing is, will such a GIANT as PAH threaten MB and BMW? Is being such an enormous company such an advantage that it will make any smaller company struggling to survive?

Is bigger always better? I'm not sure.
What does it bring? Monstrous money. Thus, enormous R&D capacities. Scale-savings, too.
However, it makes such a company slow to react, hard to drive.

History proved that a merger is far from being the right solution in any case...

Will MB and BMW survive, with PAH alongside? Will they team-up, merge, disappear? They want to tem-up by buying some components together, and to cooperate on some R&D-hungry green tech. That is imo the right solution, I don't believe more is needed.

Toyota is a giant, earning almost as much every year as all the other carmakers together... yet they still have very healthy competitors. Same will happen with PAH, they won't kill all the others.

Many studies proved it, it's not necessarily the ones investing the more in R&D who can make the most inventions and innovations.

You CANNOT reduce the making of a car to the amount of money involved in its conception. You CANNOT assume that every car made by PAH will be superior to the car produced by MB or BMW just because PAH has more money. You CANNOT assume that PAH will be first everywhere just because they have more R&D investment.

PAH is a threat. MB and BMW already had to face such threats. They will be fine, without needing a holding or merger.

You know, some years ago, every experts said that size was of the essence: no small carmaker could survive, only giants. Scale-savings and common R&D were the only things that could make a carmaker survive.
yet they were proven wrong...

Size is NOT the only thing in the automotive industry. There are other ways to survive than becoming a behemoth.

 

[EnI]

PAH is a big danger to BMW & MB.

Not only huge R&D resources ... I'm not talking about money only but about know-how as well. And they can easily take away some extrordinary engineers from BMW & MB (and other companies). Developing things for brands like Porsche, Audi, Lambo, Bugatti, Bentley is a huge challenge & opportunity for every engineer. And also to project managers, marketing people, & people from other departments.

And even more dangerous is the ability of using economy of scales - cheaper purchasing, cheaper production, shared R&D costs etc. Meaning they will either be able to offer new tech faster, or will cost them less.

In this case BMW & MB will have to offer the tech as well to be competitive - but will cost them more than the PAH brands.

Same case with Lexus in US market ... But PAH is much more dangerous with the globally present Audi brand, and much more suitable product line.
Mind the only weak point for Audi is the US market - which in the last years (strong USD) proved to be an advantage (as much as Audi's strong presence in China - an opportunity for Porsche to use VW / Audi plants in China).

Porsche will apply their organizational & management system into the VAG as well. And that's scary. Imagine VAG being as efficient as PAG.

Regarding Bugatti etc - Porsche doesn't necessary take premium brands under the Porsche roof. The crucial point is to put right (Porsche) people in the right places - who will act synchronized & under direct Porsche product policy. No matter the certain brand is owned by Audi AG, or VW France etc.


Regarding BMW+MB holding - it's just a tool to force these two companies to cooperate. Since both senior managers are too proud to cooperate. Current cooperations are a move into right direction. And some holding having stakes in both companies & its own people in the Supervisory Board of both companies can make the whole cooperation thing a bit easier. Since it can act as a catalyst.

Of course both companies will stay independent but being forced to cooperate in big R&D or standardized projects, perhaps sharing production of some parts (eg. steel or aluminum plants), purchasing same parts (eg. small hidden parts not essential to the brand differentiation) etc.

Several other companies will be also forced to team up.

 

[Tarek]

MB and BMW MUST cooperate,PAH is dead serious.

I was totally against MB and BMW cooperation but now hell yeah do it NOW!

 

[EnI]

MB and BMW MUST cooperate,PAH is dead serious.

I was totally against MB and BMW cooperation but now hell yeah do it NOW!

Exactly.

BMW & MB car divisions were merely positive in Q3, while both will be into the red in Q4. Although YTD results, and Group results will be positive.

But in 2009 ... red numbers all along!
Not to mention completely poor cash flow / slow revenues.

Of course PAH will be hit as well in 2009 but has much more reserves now teamed up with VAG.


*****

BMW & Daimler better do something quickly.

I'm expecting some serious deals to be announced till Detroit 2009 autoshow.

Otherwise I can see Daimler in big trouble - investors could put their shares on sale, while BMW will see the Quandts increasing their share over 50% to insure their influence in the company if other investors start to abandon the ship.

But as said ... I'm sure te Quandts will be able to persuade BMW & Daimler investors to invest their money into Aqton SE. As said: even AM could join the party later if in trouble.

 

[coolraoul]

I'm still firmy against all the merger or Aqton stuff. Not because of misplaced proud or anything, but because I fail to see what it can achieve that BMW and Daimler couldn't if they cooperate.

I believe that bigger is not always better. Sure PAH is very dangerous, but BMW and Daimler are willing to cooperate: on common purchase (scale-savings) and on green-tech R&D.

What would this Aqton stuff bring, except to the Qandt? Nothing at all. BMW and Daimler have different philosophies that are not compatible. They have proud that are not compatible with what would be seen as a BMW takeover, as the Qandt are the initiators of Aqton, therefore it would fail completely.

IMO (and again, I'm no expert so this is only my opinion) a cooperation is much better. No heavy structure, no proud involved, no orders, but still big scale-savings and R&D economies. All the better from a merger, without the letdowns.

The only imperative is to clearly define the way they would cooperate: how common decisions are reached, about what, with who. With that clearly stated, a merger or common structure is by no way needed, it's only a way for the Qandt to become even wealthier.

Also, the argument "BMW and Daimler need the Qandt to push them to cooperate because the actual CEOs are dumb proud oldfashioned lonely men" is completely wrong. A cooperation must come from within both companies and be agreed by them. if you force them, it will fail.
Both Reithofer and Zetsche proved they are willing to cooperate. So the Aqton is totally overdue, even counterproductive imo.