Comparison tests Porsche 918 vs McLaren P1 vs LaFerrari
- Thread starter hoffmeister_fan
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Interesting. Where did you hear this?
Bucketslash11
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i googled it, i wanted to know if it produced more downforce than the enzo and that's how i came by it
Bucketslash11
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off-topic: i've got my black stripe (first of 3) in taekwondo today (woohoo)
Mark ANTAR
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Ferrari never released any downforce figures for the LaFerrari, so the figure you gave is most probably wrong.
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Ferrari released the following downforce values for LaFerrari at 200 km/h:
360 kg (130 front + 230 rear) in the highest downforce configuration,
90 kg (40 front + 50 rear) with minimum downforce configuration.
In addition they released a "Cz "~1" which considering the car's frontal area fits to the 360 kg at 200 km/h.
360 kg (130 front + 230 rear) in the highest downforce configuration,
90 kg (40 front + 50 rear) with minimum downforce configuration.
In addition they released a "Cz "~1" which considering the car's frontal area fits to the 360 kg at 200 km/h.
I don't think we can put pay to that at all. The timing radar on the day the Laferrari ran was moved forward compared to the day the P1 ran because there was a 747 parked at the end of the runway.
More pertinent to the discussion is the how the Laferrari performed against the Veyron in the drag race. If a Veyron can do 0-300kph in 16.7s in ideal conditions then the Laferrari definitely has a chance of posting a time beginning with 15. I'm pretty sure the Laferrari did these runs without launch control.
By the way, this the same car which the owner states went faster than the P1 and 918 at Anglesey in worse conditions and using worn Corsa tyres (the tyres had already done one track day and the runs at VMax). I don't know if it was faster than the P1 on Trofeos but it is worth remembering that the P1 did the 1.11.2 on its second lap. The third lap was a 1.11.6 and there was a significant drop off thereafter, despite the McLaren technicians fiddling about with tyre pressures. So realistically a P1 on part worn Trofeos would be struggling to beat 1.12.0. Seeing as this would be the worst sort of track for Laferrari (and the P1 to be fair) and it was up against factory cars from the opposition, quite a triumph I would say.
Mark ANTAR
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It can be seen in the video I posted that the P1 actually braked sooner than the LaFerrari if you look out for the red and white blocks on the right.
The Veyron has never done 16.7s 0-300kph in any conditions and most of the time it can't even attempt it because it means using a different key. Furthermore the P1 has been independently tested at faster times over the quarter mile and 0-200mph than the Veyron and Veyron SS. With Autocar it made 205mph in a standing mile, taking 2s from 200-205mph. Vmax events are usually 1.6 miles and sometimes 1.5 miles. So the P1 would have another 9-11s of acceleration at ~91m/s (205mph). Should be enough time to pull another 2 mph given that the last 5mph passed in 2s. Futhermore, no synchronised speedometer run at lower speeds have shown the LaFerrari to be faster or even nearly as fast. 15s 0-300kph is nowhere near possible and no independently timed run will ever achieve close to that or record a 9.Xs quarter. Just as nobody will ever weigh a customer car at 1360kg.
I don't believe any of this unofficial hocus-pocus about the LaFerrari and Anglesey Coastal. The fact that Ferrari won't allow it to be tested says it all, along with it weighing 1,675kg with a driver and half a tank. Isn't it amazing that we've heard a rumour about this lap but there's no evidence and no time and we don't know whether it was faster than the PZCS or the Trof R time? You're stating this as a triumph and it likely never happened. The real triumph is for both Porsche and McLaren, in that they've scared the hell out of Ferrari so much that they won't even turn up. With the 458S struggling against the 650S even with MPSC2s on Sachsenring (-0.4s), Autocar Dry Handling (0.0s difference against 650S Spider, both times submitted on same day?http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autocar_dry_handling_track.html) and Vairano (+0.2s), it's little wonder that the PZCS-equipped LaFerrari doesn't turn up.
Give up with the fiddling tyre pressures crap already. Bovingdon confirmed that the mechanics only changed the tyres and the link has already been posted on this thread. About Trofeo Rs, here's what an actual P1 owner says about them after consistent 1:35 laps at Laguna Seca.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/mclaren/352928-lapping-p1-laguna-seca.html#post4246192
Hello my friend, allow me to try and address your points.
1) The P1 braked earlier than the Laferrari -
Yes but the brake zone was in different position to when the Laferrari ran. And of course they were run on different days with different track conditions so essentially the results are not comparable and any comparisons that are made will be speculative. What we did learn at V max is that the Laferrari is significantly quicker in terms of acceleration than the Veyron and therefore if Bugatti want to claim 16.7s for the Veyron then a 15s time for the Laferrari does not seem unreasonable. I do understand that the Veyron has separate mode for high speed performance, how do you know it wasn't engaged in the run against the Laferrari? Is the P1 faster than the Veyron? I suspect it must be but until we see a same day same track drag race, again we are speculating. If you want to put your faith in synchronized speedometers by all means be my guest, but again these are not performed on the same day in the same conditions and then there is the additional problem of the speedometers themselves.
2) The Laferrari lap at Anglesey
I'm happy to concede that the Laferrari time is yet to be proved. However I would make a few comments. We know that the claim was made by the owner himself. We know that Evo did have possession of his car as it was featured in the magazine that month and it was in Wales. The owner is well respected on multiple forums and has posted several videos of his cars in action. He is obviously very well known amongst the V max 200 community as he has run his cars there on numerous occasions. He has no history of making false or arrogant claims, quite the contrary he comes across as nice humble chap as anyone who has read his ownership threads on Pistonheads will attest. Given all this background information and that that we are faced with a straightforward decision between 1) he is telling the truth and 2) he is lying, then I think that it is far far more likely that he is telling the truth than otherwise. If you think he lying then that is your prerogative.
3) Ferrari don't allow there cars to be tested.
That's their prerogative. I'm not here to defend Ferrari's practice, just to discuss the data that we do have.
4) The 650s is faster than the Speciale
Yes. And? The is about as relevant to the Laferrari/P1 discussion as the performance of the Formula 1 teams.
5) Give up the crap about the tyre pressures being fiddled with and the Trofeos don't wear out.
Allow me to quote Jethro Bovingdon on twitter
@wedoug 1.11.2 on 2nd lap then it went back to 1.11.6s, then slower. Adjusted pressures, went back to 1.11.6s but then tapered off again.
11:10am - 18 Nov 14
I think that's fairly comprehensive isn't it? The tyre pressures WERE adjusted and there was significant deterioration in lap time. That's not to say the Trofeo's become unusable thereafter, I'm sure they could be used for much longer but that peak performance window is quite short. Consider them to be like the soft tyres used for qualifying in F1 in the old days, very rapid for a few laps but then slow down after that.
I'm very keen to see how Treynor/Ben gets on with his quest to break the lap record at Laguna Seca in his P1. I suspect he will succeed but it might require a fresh set of Trofeo's to do it. Alternatively he could just wait for his Laferrari to arrive!
Cheers.
MPSC2 vs Dunlop Sport Maxx Race vs PZero Corsa System - no surprises. This should also be moved to the Sachsenring thread, where I've already addressed the counterpoint that you're about to make.
1) The Veyron wasn't in low drag mode, and has never made 16.7s even when it has been. A LaFerrari took ~11s to get from 124mph to 186mph (on the speedo, so probably slight under-read) with a passenger and ~3s from 200-205mph . The P1 made 205mph in 60% of the distance used in Vmax (1 mile) with Autocar taking just 2.2s from 200-205mph, with another 11s of acceleration before reaching 1.6 miles. It only claims 16.5s for 0-300kph. In the same conditions on the same day a 918 took 29.7s to reach 200mph (it's made 25.X elsewhere I believe, so indicative of conditions), whereas the P1 took 23.3s, even with a 0-150mph time 1.4s slower than with Motor Trend.
Speedometers can be inaccurate but not by much at ~200kph and the LaFerrari's claims mean it should be comfortably out-accelerating a P1, not having to make excuses about speedo inaccuracy at just 200kph. The 650S Spider speedometer was out by 3kph at 346kph .
You have to admit the evidence is stacked against the LaFerrari, so far there's nothing to suggest it's faster than a P1 and a lot to suggest it isn't.
2) Wow an owner claim, there's nothing like someone with an investment to be unbiased. And Ferrari won't allow him to release evidence of their car winning? That's not like Ferrari.
3) Wreaks of trying to hide something.
5) More a case of Bovingdon's driving style. Ben's instructor also ran several laps that day without problems. 20 laps of Laguna Seca (a longer track) with more left doesn't sound like 5 laps. You'll have to link the tyre pressure talk but whilst the Trofeo R does have endurance issues by most counts, it also doesn't offer superior grip to the MPSC2. If you look at the 100-0kph warm braking g in the Sachsenring thread, the Huracan on Trofeo Rs is tested at a significantly higher temperature but still fails to produce as much longitudinal g as the MPSC2s on the Speciale and takes longer to stop. The PZCS is way behind on g and distance. We can eliminate the brakes because all these cars have enough brake to lock the wheels at 100kph and weight is countered by additional normal reaction force wrt friction. So basically the PZCS is about 10% behind on longitudinal and lateral g and the Trofeo R made a fairer comparison but isn't a great tyre.
1) How do you know the Veyron wasn't in low drag mode? Just curious, I have no idea myself but stands to reason that an owner bringing it to V max would want to maximize its performance.
Are we seriously having a speedometer discussion? Here's the P1 speedo wrong by 6 mph.
http://shmee150.com/mclaren-p1-205mph-onboard-at-vmax-hypermax/
I'm sure we'll find out which car is faster in a straight line at a v max event in 2015. Everything else is extremely speculative and unscientific I'm afraid.
2) There are owner claims and then there are the claims of owners who are well respected in the petrolhead community. I've posted some of Matt's credentials, if you don't accept them then that's fine, we can let others make up their minds too. As for whether the lap gets released, time will tell. It may be that Ben isn't allowed to release a Laguna Seca video for his Laferrari either but I'll believe whatever time he says it did, whether it's a 1.28 or a 1.40, not because I'm credulous, it's because he has the credentials to back it up.
3) Wreaks of having nothing to prove as well. In all seriousness, Ferrari probably have two Laferrari demo cars at best. If they allowed these cars to be tested overseas they would have to ship them to America, Asia the Middle East and everywhere in Europe. There's obviously significant cost involved in doing that and given that all the cars are sold out what is the upside? They're already the most powerful brand in the world and sell as many cars as they want to.
5) You mean the same driving style that posted the 1.11.2 in the first place? He was driving as fast as he could, not sliding it around. If anything, Ben's instructor was manhandling the P1 far more than Jethro was, if you compare his video with Jethro's high speed lap. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Jethro could have driven the P1 around doing 1.12s all day but that 1.11.2 type performance was available for a very short window, exactly one lap to be precise. Just like qualifying tyres in Formula 1 in the old days.
Perhaps you're correct in your assertion the Trofeo's aren't much of an improvement over the MPSC2s, though there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, such as this guy who found them to be 1.5-2.0s a lap quicker on a 60s lap on his Scuderia
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/440084-trofeo-r-sport-cup-2-430-scuderia-2.html
Not sure why it's relevant though, the Laferrari is on the same POS PZCS as the standard P1.
But one thing I am certain of and that is that brand new Trofeo's are much faster than old ones! Here's the link you asked for. Scroll down to Nov 18. An apology might also be in order because for some reason you accused me of talking crap.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jethrobovingdon
Are we seriously having a speedometer discussion? Here's the P1 speedo wrong by 6 mph.
http://shmee150.com/mclaren-p1-205mph-onboard-at-vmax-hypermax/
I'm sure we'll find out which car is faster in a straight line at a v max event in 2015. Everything else is extremely speculative and unscientific I'm afraid.
2) There are owner claims and then there are the claims of owners who are well respected in the petrolhead community. I've posted some of Matt's credentials, if you don't accept them then that's fine, we can let others make up their minds too. As for whether the lap gets released, time will tell. It may be that Ben isn't allowed to release a Laguna Seca video for his Laferrari either but I'll believe whatever time he says it did, whether it's a 1.28 or a 1.40, not because I'm credulous, it's because he has the credentials to back it up.
3) Wreaks of having nothing to prove as well. In all seriousness, Ferrari probably have two Laferrari demo cars at best. If they allowed these cars to be tested overseas they would have to ship them to America, Asia the Middle East and everywhere in Europe. There's obviously significant cost involved in doing that and given that all the cars are sold out what is the upside? They're already the most powerful brand in the world and sell as many cars as they want to.
5) You mean the same driving style that posted the 1.11.2 in the first place? He was driving as fast as he could, not sliding it around. If anything, Ben's instructor was manhandling the P1 far more than Jethro was, if you compare his video with Jethro's high speed lap. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Jethro could have driven the P1 around doing 1.12s all day but that 1.11.2 type performance was available for a very short window, exactly one lap to be precise. Just like qualifying tyres in Formula 1 in the old days.
Perhaps you're correct in your assertion the Trofeo's aren't much of an improvement over the MPSC2s, though there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, such as this guy who found them to be 1.5-2.0s a lap quicker on a 60s lap on his Scuderia
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/440084-trofeo-r-sport-cup-2-430-scuderia-2.html
Not sure why it's relevant though, the Laferrari is on the same POS PZCS as the standard P1.
But one thing I am certain of and that is that brand new Trofeo's are much faster than old ones! Here's the link you asked for. Scroll down to Nov 18. An apology might also be in order because for some reason you accused me of talking crap.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jethrobovingdon
kingjr9000
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All we need is Guibo now and then this thread would get seriously bamboozling!
Who's Guibo?
1) Because it's virtually impossible to use and the rear wing was too high.
Actually it's out by 4mph, the speed reaches 211mph but then a high wind knocks it down to a steady 209mph.
We already know which is faster, that Veyron looked like it was gaining on the LaFerrari at the top end whereas a P1 is a whole second faster than a Veyron has ever recorded to 200mph even in bad conditions. It also makes an accurate 205mph in 60% of the distance in the same conditions.
Isn't it amazing how the LaFerrari has never seemed to show itself as faster in unscientific conditions or otherwise. They're full of unfounded claims, their weights are always out and their downforce figures have been proved inaccurate in previous Sport Auto supertests - I'm sure someone like Soup could fill you in on that.
2) You're asking me to believe an awful lot here and I don't, plus a few tenths on a different day is neither here nor there, and the LaFerrari uses slightly different variants of the PZCS up front (AR Alfa Romeo as opposed to Asimmetrico 2). If the guy is so open how come he can't even say if the time was better than the PZCS time or the Trofeo R time, or indicate a time or provide proof?
3) Not really. Porsche have nothing to prove and still happily provide their cars to the motoring press. McLaren have the same racing acumen as Ferrari and British constructors have won F1 far more than Italians or anyone else. Even most of the 'non-British teams' that win are British, e.g. Red Bull - ex-Jaguar F1 team with different colours. The McLaren F1 GTR was also one of the most successful GT cars made. So how Ferrari have nothing to prove and McLaren and Porsche have everything to prove is beyond me.
5) The same driving style that was riddled with mistakes despite the 1:11 lap. Mikel Miller did 5 flying laps, albeit for traffic and noise restrictions the corners were still taken as hard, and Ben managed another 20 on the same tyres only a couple of seconds off his pace and the tyres aren't gone yet. That doesn't stack up Bovingdon's claims who seemed overly keen to portray some kind of non-existent tyre advantage, which is disputed by the Sachsenring data.
Sorry dude, please don't present internet hearsay as 'evidence to the contrary'. You can compare Huracan and 458S times and see there is nothing like a 2s difference unless you think a 458S is >2s faster than a Huracan and the 100-0kph warm braking gs at Sachsenring prove otherwise too.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/ferrari_458_speciale-vs-lamborghini_huracan_lp_610-4.html
The only difference is longevity. And the real problem is that your two claims are conflicting. If they're as short-lived as you claim, the Scuderia owner would not have had enough laps to verify the difference and usually trackdays have traffic, another element that makes his opinion/lie unscientific.
As I said the LaFerrari uses different variants of the PZCS up front (AR Alfa Romeo as opposed to Asimmetrico 2). It also has an MPSS option according to tirerack.
Mark ANTAR has posted a link elsewhere showing that they didn't tweak the P1 at Anglesey, whether that refers to suspension geometry or tyre pressure is up for question I guess. The main point is that the time was set pre-pressure tweaks.
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