12C [Official] McLaren MP4-12C

[bmer]

Slightly OT, but can someone explain why Jay Leno is ALWAYS wearing the same clothes?

Maybe he's poor?

 

[Merc1]

Yikes....you will need at least 300K to really get one "right" once you're done with options and what not.


Lithium-ion battery is standard and it isn't a hybrid. This car really does push the game on if not just in performance, it does as to what is technically possible. Now we have to see how it holds up in the field. I wonder did Mercedes help in any way as far as durability/reliability testing.


M

 

[Centurion]

I'm getting a nose bleed from reading "Elite paint", "Stealth wheel finish" and "Special colour brake calipers". Is it really this easy to con wealthy car buyers into handing over money? Unless you're willing to separate with at least 2k, you can only have the car in the pedestrian colours white, silver and blue. The widely advertised orange colour must certainly be the elite paint option at 5k. Gosh, this is madness but at least Porsche and Ferrari no longer have to feel bad about price gauging their customers. Mclaren has now set a new benchmark for the "expensive options"-game.

The order sheet has some telling facts about what journalists have already corroborated: The car is comfortable. You rarely see a sports car of this calibre advertised with an optional sports exhaust and set of winter tire. Mclaren are aiming for the 12C to be used as a daily driver like the R8 but with Ferrari performance.

 

[Wunderkind]

The McLaren Mp4-12C can only be good for the car industry by raising the bar on performance, engineering, quality, and useability.

Now others have to dig deep to follow McLaren's lead.

I wonder how much better can the F1 successor be..........................

 

[Merc1]

I wonder what kind of profit they're making on this car now. Everything is "bespoke" as they say.


M

 

[Centurion]

I wonder what kind of profit they're making on this car now. Everything is "bespoke" as they say.


M

They'll be making a massive buck on pushing customers into ticking the boxes for cosmetic carbon fibre panels. Remember that Mclaren is an F1 team. For the past 40 years or so they have been going through carbon fibre like it's toilet paper. They have long sheets of material bought at lucrative prices. Profit margins on the carbon fibre panels must be 70-85% region. Dealers won't let buyers get away without ordering at least one CF panel.

 

[martinbo]

They'll be making a massive buck on pushing customers into ticking the boxes for cosmetic carbon fibre panels. Remember that Mclaren is an F1 team. For the past 40 years or so they have been going through carbon fibre like it's toilet paper. They have long sheets of material bought at lucrative prices. Profit margins on the carbon fibre panels must be 70-85% region. Dealers won't let buyers get away without ordering at least one CF panel.

Please show me what these "long sheets of material" look like. I'd love to see what exactly McLaren has bought at lucrative prices. Certainly they haven't been going through the stuff like toilet paper for the last 40 years either. CF technology hasn't been in use for that long.

"Profit margins on the carbon fibre panels must be..."
"Dealers won't let buyers..."

Holy cow, Luw, smoking more than just your socks on this post. There's nothing moderately relevant to carbon fibre manufacture, material or value in what you've said. Nope.

 

[Centurion]

Please show me what these "long sheets of material" look like. I'd love to see what exactly McLaren has bought at lucrative prices. Certainly they haven't been going through the stuff like toilet paper for the last 40 years either. CF technology hasn't been in use for that long.

"Profit margins on the carbon fibre panels must be..."
"Dealers won't let buyers..."

Holy cow, Luw, smoking more than just your socks on this post. There's nothing moderately relevant to carbon fibre manufacture, material or value in what you've said. Nope.

Mclaren is an F1 team and to every single race they ship two two chassis along with third chassi. These are then backed up with a plethora of spare parts including a handful of front noses for each car. Some of these aerodynamics parts are just used once and some not at all and are just scrapped. Let's not forget all the scale models used in the wind tunnel. The slightest dent or scratch on an F1 panel and it's scrapped.

Ferrari likewise Mclaren have long term deals with suppliers, and are provided with carbon fibre at favourable volume discounts. It's simple economies of scale and in fact there is nothing in making use of their secure blood line of the precious material.

 

[Sunny]

^Yes, McLaren also has an F1 team and F1 teams use CF extensively. None of which substantiates your hyperbolic statements of McLaren using CF like toilet paper for 40 years (their first CF chassis car was MP4/4 in 1988 - just 23 years ago, not 40). Or your assertions of 75-80% profit margins - for all you know, it could be higher - or lower. I don't know and unless you are employed by McLaren, you don't either. So why feel compelled to pull these random percentages from the wrong end? Sorry, Luw, bs is bs, when called out, do the decent thing and let it go.

 

[NarutoRamen]

I gotta go with Martin and Sunny on this. CF is expensive, no matter how much of it you buy or make. Bulk buying's deep discounts don't extend to CF as other materials.

 

[lazerblu]

This may help to explain how they have brought carbon technology to the 458/Gallardo class.

Source: McLaren Automotive

The heart of the new car is the Carbon MonoCell. McLaren pioneered the use of carbon composite construction in the 1981 Formula 1 MP4/1 model and set a trend that all Formula 1 teams have followed. The company brought carbon fibre to road cars for the first time with the 1993 McLaren F1 and then built on this experience with a carbon fibre chassis and body on the SLR manufactured to the same exacting standards, but in higher volumes.

So, until now, carbon chassis have remained the preserve of the most expensive exotic cars; a purchase for the super-rich where costs are driven by the complexity of carbon fibre chassis design and build.
The 12C changes this by introducing the advantages of carbon composite - light weight, high strength and torsional rigidity, and longevity – to a more affordable sector through its revolutionary engineering as a one-piece moulding. Never before has a carbon fibre chassis been produced this way.

The 12C MonoCell not only brings dynamic benefits, but also offers fundamental engineering opportunities that form the basis of the car's unique character. It has been designed to allow a much narrower structure overall which in turn contributes to a more compact car that is easier to position on the road and more rewarding to drive.

Not only is the 12C unique in its class by offering carbon technology, it also has the highest specific power output as well as extraordinary power- and torque-to-weight ratios. Furthermore, the Proactive Chassis Control system offers groundbreaking handling and ride comfort while an intense focus on occupant packaging offers new levels of comfort and everyday usability.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

Mclaren is an F1 team and to every single race they ship two two chassis along with third chassi. These are then backed up with a plethora of spare parts including a handful of front noses for each car. Some of these aerodynamics parts are just used once and some not at all and are just scrapped. Let's not forget all the scale models used in the wind tunnel. The slightest dent or scratch on an F1 panel and it's scrapped.

Ferrari likewise Mclaren have long term deals with suppliers, and are provided with carbon fibre at favourable volume discounts. It's simple economies of scale and in fact there is nothing in making use of their secure blood line of the precious material.

Dude, have you and footie been drinking together?

Cos you're talking absolute crap!

 

[Soup]

Anyone who's been in the wholesale business for years gets discount from left and right, when they tell you the company is losing xxx,xxx,xxx amount of money, believe it or not it's bullshit, why are their doors still open if they're losing money ? every company wants to make full profit no matter what, not lose millions because of you, me or the guy next door

Company ceo's like to wake up every morning checking their bank statements to see figures under credit not debit

 

[Levi68]

This car is simply amazing. It has all the good aspects of the 911 Turbo, GT-R, R8, Gallardo and Ferrari. The SLS AMG is left behind. What I like about this car is that it is not like "Porsche" or "Ferrari". It is just the "Ultimate Driving Machine" that BMW said to be. That is a car just for you, and not for others: "Look I drive Ferrari/Porsche". It maybe has no emotion, but that is what I like about it. The McLaren's looks is so unspecial, that that is what makes it special and thus look so much better than its rivals IMO. Its design is timeless, just as the McLaren F1.

 

[lazerblu]

Some more reviews from around the world.


Quatroroute - Italy Google Translate


Omni Auto - Italy Google Translate


AutoScout24 - Germany Google Translate


Auto.de - Germany Google Translate


Auto Bild - Germany Google Translate


Irish Times - McLaren finds the perfect formula - The Irish Times - Wed, Feb 16, 2011


And finally another British review with short video.

The Sun - Big Mc has special sauce | The Sun |Motors|Ken Gibson

 

[martinbo]

Roger Green's response to allegations of the MP4-12C being "souless".

ROGER GREEN: THE NEW MCLAREN ISN'T SOULESS

In many of the reviews on the MP4-12C the only real criticism levelled at it has been that there’s a shortfall in emotional connection? I don’t think so. Certainly not compared to the 458, which in this respect I believe relies more on history and association with truly epic Ferraris like the Enzo, or any of the GTOs rather than creating an its own aura. Yes, the Ferrari has more presence and visual allure, but soul? A 360 Stradale has a bucket-load more than a 458. Make no mistake the current entry-level Ferrari will prickle the nape of any petrolhead and its capabilities are unquestionably extraordinary, however it is the McLaren really did get under my skin and it’s even more able.

No doubt about it, this is Ron’s car. It takes all of 6 laps of a wet and bumpy Llandow track to understand how obsessively engineered this car is. These conditions presented some of the toughest test you could subject a supercar to, and yet in the Mac you instantly felt secure, it keyed into the tarmac, virtually dismissing bumps and standing water. You build confidence in so fast you can really lean on it within a lap. And it’s shockingly fast. I knew it would be quick – Monkey told me in no uncertain terms as I climbed aboard, and, like everyone else, I’d already seen the acceleration figures – but that knowledge still doesn’t prepare you for the full effect.

But the most astonishing aspect isn’t the power, it’s what the MP4-12C does with it. Over the soaking wet, cold Welsh moorland roads the ride was almost spooky. I opted for ‘Sport’ in those conditions to tighten the roll rate, but it still had an exceptional level of suppleness, connectedness and feel. It’s a true drivers’ car. You feel instantly at one with it, and yet also know that each and every further drive would uncover more facets and never fail to amaze and excite. It’s not a car to be looked at, or to show off in, there’s no bling, no distraction. It’s a car to drive, and in the real world conditions there’s nothing faster or more accomplished. Seventeen years ago McLaren re-wrote the supercar rule book. I reckon they’ve just done it again and that’s all the emotion and soul I need.

Source:ROGER GREEN: The new McLaren isn't souless blog on Evo Community by Roger Green

 

[Sunny]

Hehe, even if the charge it was soulless was true, I have a feeling Ron Dennis would actually take it as a compliment.

 

[Soup]

did imageshack screw us ?

 

[Guibo]

With regard to cost/profitability, the McLaren will benefit from volume, but not necessarily through CF purchases in bulk (thought that may help). The volume is made possible through McLaren's advances in CF processing, aided by the fact that there's not all that much CF outside of the monocell tub.

From Car Magazine, Nov 2009:
"McLaren has learnt much about carbon and produced a tub for the 412C that costs £5-6k, less than a quarter of the cost of an SLR tub.
'What we learnt from studying carbon is that you need a lot of jigs and that if you use it where it's visible you have to spend ages trying to make it look pretty and getting the paint right. So on the 412C we've used it for structural purposes only,' Antony Sheriff says.
Aluminum extrusions bolted to either end carry the running gear. The roof, bonnet and wings are aluminum, the remainder is a plastic material called SMC."
SMC has been in use for Corvette and Viper bodies for some time.

From Composites World, Sept 2010:
"RTM process cuts labor by 90 percent and enables high-volume unit production.
For the SLR’s tub, an out-of-autoclave prepreg system was hand layed and cured in an oven. However, only 500 SLRs are produced per annum, a quantity practical for prepreg layup and autoclave processing. Given the need to reduce cost on the MP4-12C and build eight times as many cars each year, McLaren elected to manufacture the MonoCell via resin transfer molding (RTM), using textile preforms.
...the manufacturing hours for the new tub were reduced by a factor of 10 compared to those of the prepreg part."
Search: Composites World)

McLaren also saved money on this project by using its existing simulation tools originally developed for F1 racing.
"The simulator was initially designed to improve the performance of the Formula 1 cars. But it has also been used intensively in the design and development process for the 12C, where modelling offers the opportunity to test likely outcomes without having to build a component that might turn out to be inadequate. It saves both money and time and it is perhaps the most effective technology transfer from Formula 1 to road cars.
The crash test requirements are a good example of how simulation helps speed up development. Long before the first Carbon MonoCell had been constructed, the design had been through hundreds of passive crash test simulations. When the time came to submit a real world crash test, the 12C passed with flying colours."
McLaren MP4-12C (2011): the first official P11 story | Automotive & Motoring News | Car Magazine Online

The link above also says that because the carbon monocell is so stiff, it makes it easier to find the right handling vs ride compromise. While the engine is built in-house, it is turbocharged so that would theoretically make it easier to reach their power goals. If they can reach their production goal of 4-4.5k per year, that will no doubt help their profitability. Whether it pays off the substantial capital and R&D costs is anyone's guess at this point (if anyone has a good estimate of what each MP4-12C costs in terms of labor and materials, we can get a rough idea). It's not unheard of for new ventures to return profits only in very later years.

EDIT: engine designed in house, built by Ricardo

 

[Mr Robert]

Whether it pays off the substantial capital and R&D costs is anyone's guess at this point (if anyone has a good estimate of what each MP4-12C costs in terms of labor and materials, we can get a rough idea). It's not unheard of for new ventures to return profits only in very later years.

Thanks Guibo, good post.

I think some R&D could be recovered by licensing some solutions. This, however, relies on the MP4 being somewhat successful.