Valkyrie [Official] Aston Martin - From AM-RB 001 to Valkyrie

[Bridster]

While I agree with you about the gap between BOSS GP and original 1997 F1 times, we can derive a hypothetical full potetial lap time of the Benetton B197 at the Silverstone National Circuit by looking at the times set at the Red Bull Ring circuit.
The Red Bull Ring is useful for this kind of comparisons because its layout basically never changed since 1996.

During the Austrian 1997 F1 GP, Alesi did a qualifying lap of around 1'11 with the Benetton B197, while during the 2018 BOSS GP round at the Red Bull Ring the B197 did a 1'16 lap time.
This % gap would lead to a projected lap time in the high 43 seconds-low 44 seconds range at the Silverstone National Circuit for the B197 F1 car at full power.
In the video, Hulkenberg stated that with a more aggressive (i.e. oversteering) suspension setup and without the passenger, he could remove a couple of seconds from the 47.4 seconds lap time of the AMR Pro.
This would lead to a potential lap time of high 44 seconds-low 45 seconds for the AMR Pro.

In the end, there actually wouldn't be that much of a difference in performance between the AMR Pro and a late 1990s top-end F1 car.

So, while I agree with you about the comments on the BOSS GP lap times and, especially, on the poor management of the cars from AM, the AMR Pro still is a very fast track car in absolute terms.
In fact, it is much faster than any other 2-seater, track-only cars currently available to buy for gentleman drivers.
One could argue to buy an old F1/Indycar instead (or a modern LMP machine) and probably pay less: while I agree with that, those cars are fully fledged race machines which literally don't work if driven slow (and that's what gentleman drivers would do 99% of the times, as they would lack the required driving skills). On the other hand, the AMR Pro would provide a similar level of performance but it is designed to be also driven 'slow' and be manageable by an amateur.

Point is: if much, much slower track cars such as the FXXK, the Huayra R, the Senna GTR (and so on) cost 3-4+ millions, the existence of the AMR Pro is more than justified because, for the same amount of money, it offers performances which are on a whole different level entirely.

If the car really did turn out to be as fast as an 1997 F1 car, that would indeed put it close to (peak) LMP1 pace - which is exactly the level of performance they targeted (at least since 2021 when they switched the design). And, looking at the car - which is based on an early version of the car they were gonna enter into WEC, which itself is based on some form of LMP2 chassis, but with a much more poweful engine - there is nothing suggesting that the car couldn't achieve those times.

Now, if this was any other brand, that would be it, but with how many lies there have been, it's hard to give AM the benefit of the doubt. Even the latest event is just more of the same. Nobody outside of factory is still allowed to drive it - so we don't know how amateur friendly the setup really was. And why didn't it have a more aggressive setup if Hulkenberg was the only one driving it? Why has there been no representative lap set in any of the 3 events they did with the car? They had the track booked in Bahrain, at Laguna Seca and at Silverstone - it would have been so easy to do a lap then. Or at any other track at any other time of their choosing.

If we are talking about how friendly the car is to drive for amateurs, there is no fundamental difference between setting the AMR Pro that way, and setting up any other racing car that way. You could have a "gentleman driver" setup with any other car as well - of course with the same performance penalty.

These hypercar based track only cars were always a pretty terrible deal when compared to actual race cars, and yeah, I guess the AMR Pro is probably not the worst of them, but that still doesn't really say much. There are some advantages these cars might have, like the ability to take a passenger, or much less maintenance required, but even that has yet to be proven for most of them and especially for the AMR Pro. After all, the more extreme you make the car and the more it resembles an actual race car, the more of the same problems it will have.

In any case, my main interest - and why I bother commenting - is not so much in the car itself, but in bringing some accountability to AM for the years of BS they fed us. Because even if the car does slot between LMP1 and LMP2 in pace, that's still pretty far from the original promise that it's gonna be faster than F1 - and nobody so far (in all the youtube videos of the AMR Pro) has commented on that fact, asked AM staff about it, or brought it up at all. And that's saying nothing of the absolute shitshow that is the road going Valkyrie.

 

[StartYourEngines]

As I said, while I agree on the poor management of both road legal and AMR Pro Valkyrie from AM, what I really care is to analize the actual perfomance of the car.
The rest, being it AM claims or whatever, doesn't really bother me that much.
That's also because, when studying a specific car, I tend to give credit to the quotes of people who have an actual technology background. In the particular case of the AMR Pro, the only person's opinion that I cared to listen was Newey's, who described the AMR Pro as a car having the track capability of top-end LMP race cars and far exceeding the performance of any other 2-seater, track-only car available to customers at the time. End of the story.
And, if that was the target, it is safe to say that the AMR Pro hit it entirely.

In fact, back to the AMR Pro running at the Silverstone National Circuit driven by Hulkenberg and with different passengers on board, what we konw for sure is that the car was not in qualyfing mode, as it did multiple runs of two flying lap without refuelling, taking passenger after passenger, plus of course the basic suspension setup to be taken into account, which Hulkenberg would have it tuned to easily gain at least a couple of seconds.
Well, under these conditions the car:

- took Copse at a speed never below 207 km/h (with fuel + passenger, remember)
- with it 1015 PS deployed, demonstrated an acceleration from 200 to 300 km/h in around 6, 6.5 seconds (with a passenger on board + fuel for multiple laps)

These are figures typical of a serious top-end LMP prototype.
In fact, you can directly compare them to the performance displayed in race-trim by the 2016 Toyota TS050 LMP1 race car driven by Kobayashi at Silverstone in the video below.

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You can see that, in race trim, the TS050 faced the Copse at a minimum speed of around 203 km/h, with a top speed of 266 km/h before the turn.
Meanwhile, the AMR Pro faces Copse at a minimum speed of around 207 km/h, with a top speed of 300 km/h before the turn (with a passenger on board).
Also, if you compare the average times taken both by the AMR Pro and the TS050 to complete the Booklands-Luffield-Woodcote-Copse-Maggots part of the circuit during the 2 videos, you can see that the values are very similar (with the TS050 which, meanwhile, blows past LMP2 machines as if they are standing still).

To me, these numbers of the AMR Pro are quite clear: the car is a serious piece of kit and I believe that it is exactly as fast as originally targeted by Newey with that previous quote (bar probably the latest 2018 LMP1-H machines in full qualifying trim with electrical AWD).

To further assess this argument, there are other videos on YT which would allow for comparisons that more or less would prove the same: one is the on board lap at Silverstone of a ByKolles CLMP1/01 LMP1 race car and the other is the on board with telemetry of an Audi R18 LMP1 prototype during the 6h of Silverstone.

All in all, the AMR Pro is very fast and other two data support its performance level:

- James Rossiter doing a 48.18 seconds lap time at Silverstone National Circuit with a Honda RA107 F1 car (yes, in slightly damp conditions (but with slicks) so of course it could be faster, but this is enough to provide the order of magnitude of the performance for a comparison)
- Nico Hulkenberg directly comparing the AMR Pro to a F2 race car in an interview to AMuS (link here below).

Im Aston Martin Valkyrie AMR Pro auf der Rennstrecke

Wir reisten zur Testfahrt in der Rennversion des Valkyrie zum Formel-1-Kurs nach Silverstone. Aus der Mitfahrt wurde nichts – brutal war es trotzdem.

www.auto-motor-und-sport.de

 

[Joelpeyeye]

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[duesy]

As I said, while I agree on the poor management of both road legal and AMR Pro Valkyrie from AM, what I really care is to analize the actual perfomance of the car.
The rest, being it AM claims or whatever, doesn't really bother me that much.
That's also because, when studying a specific car, I tend to give credit to the quotes of people who have an actual technology background. In the particular case of the AMR Pro, the only person's opinion that I cared to listen was Newey's, who described the AMR Pro as a car having the track capability of top-end LMP race cars and far exceeding the performance of any other 2-seater, track-only car available to customers at the time. End of the story.
And, if that was the target, it is safe to say that the AMR Pro hit it entirely.

In fact, back to the AMR Pro running at the Silverstone National Circuit driven by Hulkenberg and with different passengers on board, what we konw for sure is that the car was not in qualyfing mode, as it did multiple runs of two flying lap without refuelling, taking passenger after passenger, plus of course the basic suspension setup to be taken into account, which Hulkenberg would have it tuned to easily gain at least a couple of seconds.
Well, under these conditions the car:

- took Copse at a speed never below 207 km/h (with fuel + passenger, remember)
- with it 1015 PS deployed, demonstrated an acceleration from 200 to 300 km/h in around 6, 6.5 seconds (with a passenger on board + fuel for multiple laps)

These are figures typical of a serious top-end LMP prototype.
In fact, you can directly compare them to the performance displayed in race-trim by the 2016 Toyota TS050 LMP1 race car driven by Kobayashi at Silverstone in the video below.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

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You can see that, in race trim, the TS050 faced the Copse at a minimum speed of around 203 km/h, with a top speed of 266 km/h before the turn.
Meanwhile, the AMR Pro faces Copse at a minimum speed of around 207 km/h, with a top speed of 300 km/h before the turn (with a passenger on board).
Also, if you compare the average times taken both by the AMR Pro and the TS050 to complete the Booklands-Luffield-Woodcote-Copse-Maggots part of the circuit during the 2 videos, you can see that the values are very similar (with the TS050 which, meanwhile, blows past LMP2 machines as if they are standing still).

To me, these numbers of the AMR Pro are quite clear: the car is a serious piece of kit and I believe that it is exactly as fast as originally targeted by Newey with that previous quote (bar probably the latest 2018 LMP1-H machines in full qualifying trim with electrical AWD).

To further assess this argument, there are other videos on YT which would allow for comparisons that more or less would prove the same: one is the on board lap at Silverstone of a ByKolles CLMP1/01 LMP1 race car and the other is the on board with telemetry of an Audi R18 LMP1 prototype during the 6h of Silverstone.

All in all, the AMR Pro is very fast and other two data support its performance level:

- James Rossiter doing a 48.18 seconds lap time at Silverstone National Circuit with a Honda RA107 F1 car (yes, in slightly damp conditions (but with slicks) so of course it could be faster, but this is enough to provide the order of magnitude of the performance for a comparison)
- Nico Hulkenberg directly comparing the AMR Pro to a F2 race car in an interview to AMuS (link here below).

Im Aston Martin Valkyrie AMR Pro auf der Rennstrecke

Wir reisten zur Testfahrt in der Rennversion des Valkyrie zum Formel-1-Kurs nach Silverstone. Aus der Mitfahrt wurde nichts – brutal war es trotzdem.

www.auto-motor-und-sport.de

Those are very good points. Also, vis-a-vis AM's unfulfilled claims and promises: Most of the bold claims were made with Newey in charge, and I am sure he would've delivered on them had he stayed in charge of the project. Blame Stroll for AM Valkyrie's later shortcomings.

 

[Bridster]

Also, vis-a-vis AM's unfulfilled claims and promises: Most of the bold claims were made with Newey in charge, and I am sure he would've delivered on them had he stayed in charge of the project. Blame Stroll for AM Valkyrie's later shortcomings.

This is just fiction. Even in 2020, after they had been acquired by Stroll, they were still claiming the road going Valkyrie was gonna be faster than an LMP2 car around Silverstone, while wearing Cup 2s.

And the claims of the car being faster than F1/LMP1 (or that it was gonna weigh 1000kg) that were made initially were never gonna be true no matter what. I had made a long post in the past explaining why, but just looking at how even the AMR Pro with double the downforce, less weight and on slicks is slower, it's not hard to understand.

What happened to the Valkyrie is very from Stroll coming and ruining everything. The project was plagued by false promises and exaggerations (and delays) right from the start and wasn't on track to meet any of them way before Stroll got anywhere close to the project (after all, the car was originally supposed to come out at the end of 2018 - so you can't really blame Stroll's acquisition in 2020 for the cars problems). What Stroll might have done, at most, was to deliver the coup de grace.

 

[tristatez28lt1]

Those are very good points. Also, vis-a-vis AM's unfulfilled claims and promises: Most of the bold claims were made with Newey in charge, and I am sure he would've delivered on them had he stayed in charge of the project. Blame Stroll for AM Valkyrie's later shortcomings.

That’s what the RB17 will be for

 

[bmwz4coupe]

That’s what the RB17 will be for

Yes, if Stroll doesnt buy this project as well….

 

[WBarnes]

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Is that the Silverstone National Circuit?

 

[Tourbillon]

Is that the Silverstone National Circuit?

Yes it is. I've heard 47:41 laptime but must stress I've not watched the video. Tomorrow I'll ascertain if that's true or not. It seems very specific.

(Today was McLaren Artura day, LOL!)

Edit>

Flat out in a 1000 hp Aston Martin Valkyrie AMR Pro - The Supercar Blog

We’ve seen the Aston Martin Valkyrie AMR Pro at various racetracks around the world. But never have we seen a proper on-board lap with an F1 driver at the wheel. Mr JWW got a chance to ride along in one such AMR Pro with Nico Hulkenberg at the wheel. The track-only hypercar did a few […]

www.thesupercarblog.com

"Here, you have an immensely powerful engine propelling a lightweight hypercar. Put an F1 driver at the wheel and the results are astounding. The AMR Pro lapped the short loop in 47.41 seconds. You can see the downforce working as Nico throws the car around Copse at over 200 km/h."

 

[duesy]

This is just fiction. Even in 2020, after they had been acquired by Stroll, they were still claiming the road going Valkyrie was gonna be faster than an LMP2 car around Silverstone, while wearing Cup 2s.

And the claims of the car being faster than F1/LMP1 (or that it was gonna weigh 1000kg) that were made initially were never gonna be true no matter what. I had made a long post in the past explaining why, but just looking at how even the AMR Pro with double the downforce, less weight and on slicks is slower, it's not hard to understand.

What happened to the Valkyrie is very from Stroll coming and ruining everything. The project was plagued by false promises and exaggerations (and delays) right from the start and wasn't on track to meet any of them way before Stroll got anywhere close to the project (after all, the car was originally supposed to come out at the end of 2018 - so you can't really blame Stroll's acquisition in 2020 for the cars problems). What Stroll might have done, at most, was to deliver the coup de grace.

I didn't say the claims were Stroll's only; the opposite. I said Newey could've delivered on the promises, and I believe that he could.

 

[Bridster]

I said Newey could've delivered on the promises, and I believe that he could.

Which is not supported by the reality, though.

The car was pretty much finalized by 2017. The engine, gearbox, hybrid system and chassis were all locked and if you look at the 2017 concept (as opposed to the original one revealed in 2016), it's almost identical to the today's car, which means the aerodynamics were pretty much finalized too. Is it possible that the car became marginally worse in 2020 because of budget cuts? Yeah, sure, but that would mostly cover details.

The fact is that the car had been in development since 2014, was supposed to come out in 2018, but in 2020 when Stroll took over the car was still not anywhere close to being ready. That's just AM's failure and has nothing to do with Stroll. I am not sure what changes you think Stroll did or could do that would make the car 30s slower than their claims without changing any major part of the car. And that's beside the fact that making a road going car as fast as F1/LMP1 is impossible in the first place.

What Stroll can and should be blamed for, however, is the current situation of AM producing a faulty car and in desperate need of money trying to force it on customers.

 

[Jo_Sta7]

I never understood the worship over Newey in regards to the Valkyrie. I read countless comments during the cars intro about how he’s going to deliver the greatest car of all time, etc etc. it’s remarkably difficult to deliver the design brief of a Valkyrie. Plus he still has F1 to focus on. It’s childish really, to even think a small company like Aston could have pulled off something so radical no matter the program director.

The bigger flop to me, however, and a car that illustrates just how unbelievably hard it is to pull off these cutting edge hybrids is the Mercedes One. What a flop. And Mercedes’ has 100x the budget and access to brainpower Vs Aston.

 

[Tourbillon]

I never understood the worship over Newey in regards to the Valkyrie. I read countless comments during the cars intro about how he’s going to deliver the greatest car of all time, etc etc. it’s remarkably difficult to deliver the design brief of a Valkyrie. Plus he still has F1 to focus on. It’s childish really, to even think a small company like Aston could have pulled off something so radical no matter the program director.

The bigger flop to me, however, and a car that illustrates just how unbelievably hard it is to pull off these cutting edge hybrids is the Mercedes One. What a flop. And Mercedes’ has 100x the budget and access to brainpower Vs Aston.

Well Red Bull Racing is moving onto the "mark two" for want of a better name in a few years time. Forget about the Aston Martin Valkyrie to a degree and his relationship to Gaydon.

It's his Formula One achievements that are quite rightly so, legendary. Incredibly impressive, incredibly talented and incredibly successful.

 

[Jo_Sta7]

Well Red Bull Racing is moving onto the "mark two" for want of a better name in a few years time. Forget about the Aston Martin Valkyrie to a degree and his relationship to Gaydon.

It's his Formula One achievements that are quite rightly so, legendary. Incredibly impressive, incredibly talented and incredibly successful.

Yes but who cares about his F1 accomplishments when it comes to road car design and creation? Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever but his track record and decisions as an Owner of a team are sub par. There is not a direct crossover.

 

[Tourbillon]

Ultimately there IS crossover and that's the point. His fervent or ardent supporters or "fans" simply don't care. To them it's the samething.

For me individually Senna is the Goat. And that's it. No one will ever convince me otherwise. I simply won't listen. To give an example.

But that doesn't mean I can't respect others opinions. I do. It is what it is.

Nothing wrong ultimately just opposing thought streams.

 

[Jo_Sta7]

Ultimately there IS crossover and that's the point. His fervent or ardent supporters or "fans" simply don't care. To them it's the samething.

For me individually Senna is the Goat. And that's it. No one will ever convince me otherwise. I simply won't listen. To give an example.

But that doesn't mean I can't respect others opinions. I do. It is what it is.

Nothing wrong ultimately just opposing thought streams.

You’re still talking about f1 though. Which is a separate realm from worldwide homologated super car design and production. Safety regulations, comfort, reliability (huge and wouldn’t be an F1 forte) EU pollution regs (the biggest joke for low production super cars) all have to be taken into account. That’s why as successful as Newey may be in F1 it doesn’t mean much for Valkyrie or whatever else they’re coming up with now.

 

[duesy]

Which is not supported by the reality, though.

The car was pretty much finalized by 2017. The engine, gearbox, hybrid system and chassis were all locked and if you look at the 2017 concept (as opposed to the original one revealed in 2016), it's almost identical to the today's car, which means the aerodynamics were pretty much finalized too. Is it possible that the car became marginally worse in 2020 because of budget cuts? Yeah, sure, but that would mostly cover details.

The fact is that the car had been in development since 2014, was supposed to come out in 2018, but in 2020 when Stroll took over the car was still not anywhere close to being ready. That's just AM's failure and has nothing to do with Stroll. I am not sure what changes you think Stroll did or could do that would make the car 30s slower than their claims without changing any major part of the car. And that's beside the fact that making a road going car as fast as F1/LMP1 is impossible in the first place.

What Stroll can and should be blamed for, however, is the current situation of AM producing a faulty car and in desperate need of money trying to force it on customers.

Based on my own observations from years of watching F1 and being involved in designing formula cars (of far lower tiers) earlier in life, I can tell you that Newey's involvement with determining the final setup could translate to saving 1-2 seconds on the track. Newey's supervision could've also prevented/redirected several cost-cutting measures, and I would say that's another 2-3 seconds—since it's my understanding that Stroll's arrival hit the drivetrain aspect of things. Saving 3-5 seconds overall is a large margin of performance in these cars.

 

[Tourbillon]

You’re still talking about f1 though. Which is a separate realm from worldwide homologated super car design and production. Safety regulations, comfort, reliability (huge and wouldn’t be an F1 forte) EU pollution regs (the biggest joke for low production super cars) all have to be taken into account. That’s why as successful as Newey may be in F1 it doesn’t mean much for Valkyrie or whatever else they’re coming up with now.

I agree.

But I also stated the fans don't care and see no distinction between the two sphere's.

And I'll leave it on that truth. We know better.

 

[KiwiRob]

Yes but who cares about his F1 accomplishments when it comes to road car design and creation? Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever but his track record and decisions as an Owner of a team are sub par. There is not a direct crossover.

you can have said the same about Murray when he designed the F1, look how awesome that turned out.

 

[KiwiRob]

Ultimately there IS crossover and that's the point. His fervent or ardent supporters or "fans" simply don't care. To them it's the samething.

For me individually Senna is the Goat. And that's it. No one will ever convince me otherwise. I simply won't listen. To give an example.

But that doesn't mean I can't respect others opinions. I do. It is what it is.

Nothing wrong ultimately just opposing thought streams.

The GOAT is Jim Clark, Senna was good but he wasn’t Jim Clark god tier good.