Hot! Mercedes-Benz, What's Next?

[Swissbob]

What's the purpose of the V12? It is heavy, inefficient and very complex. It makes sense in Ferrari and Lambos for the noise but in a Mercedes is an overkill now when you can achieve low NVH with a hybrid system.

The problem is, you can’t.

The M177 mild hybrid is as smooth as it gets and still extremely rough compared to the M275/M279.

 

[klier]

Never have I ever said it would be difficult, I said it wouldn't be worth the cost. Big difference.

If it's not difficult it's not costly.

Uh, Mercedes does not exist in a vacuum and observing other automakers serves as another indicator of where the market is heading. If even more prestigious brands (namely Bentley) are lessening availability of 12 cylinder engines that tells you something about the overall luxury car market.

No not in a vacuum, but they should exist as a leader and as an example.

Bentley prestigious my f' ing ass. Only for people who are clueless. The ones who know know they're simply a VAG offshoot not much different from Skoda. Give me a break in comparing Bentley, VAG's little bitch, to the Mercedes Benz Group AG. All they do is putting some leather on a VW.

MB should have a V12 at the very least in the GLS, SL and S class while it's still possible legislation wise. Just like how Porsche has promised an ICE 6 pot 911 until the very last day

Merge that inline 6 with another, hybridize the whole thing and put it in your cars.

 

[Merc1]

I think that makes the point by itself doesn't it? If the market has to ask or never understands...

Totally disagree. Just because some don’t get it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist. Some people question the point of a V8 or even a V6. How far out of understanding do we want to go?

M

 

[Merc1]

We understand, but if nobody buys a V12 aside from a very small number of Maybach customers, what is the point?

And I say this as someone who would really like for there to be a non-AMG V12 S600 sedan/coupe. The simple fact is, hardly anyone bought a W222 S600 or even S65.

If you're happy to pay a $100,000 premium for a V12 you can just get a Maybach.

Yeah yeah, the cost of developing an EU7 V12 should be doable. But products are made to be sold, and there needs to be a willing customer base to justify it.

Yeah we’ve been over all that.

M

 

[Swissbob]

One of the reasons the S680 didn’t sell well is the E-ABC suspension which is only available in the S580 because the S680 doesn’t have 48V.

In the Maybach you expect to buy the best engine with the best suspension.

 

[klier]

One of the reasons the S680 didn’t sell well is the E-ABC suspension which is only available in the S580 because the S680 doesn’t have 48V.

The Mercedes V12 has been an afterthought since forever. Not compatible with this or that, no AWD versions, relatively low power figures, mated with old gearboxes, you can name it.

No kidding people don't want it like that.

 

[Swissbob]

The Mercedes V12 has been an afterthought since forever. Not compatible with this or that, no AWD versions, relatively low power figures, mated with old gearboxes, you can name it.

No kidding people don't want it like that.

Exactly

In the W220/221 only 5 Speed Automatic because of the torque

W222 7 Speed automatic because they’d strengthen it for the 5.5L AMG V8 Bi-Turbo M157.

X223 9 Speed and 4matic because the 9G has been strengthened for the M177 engine.

The Power didn’t change much since 2002, that’s ridiculous.

I love the V12 but without 4matic in the 217, it’s difficult to put the power down.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

The Mercedes V12 has been an afterthought since forever. Not compatible with this or that, no AWD versions, relatively low power figures, mated with old gearboxes, you can name it.

No kidding people don't want it like that.

Relatively low power?
It's had 604-680 horsepower and 1000Nm of torque since like 2005, and that has been competitive until recently.
I mean heck 630PS even today is still a healthy power figure.

Heck the M158 they send to Pagani which uses the same fundamental design can hit 800+ horsepower and 1100Nm quite easily.

The engine itself is fine.

 

[Swissbob]

The engine needs a proper transmission which can handle the power.

The 9G is too weak for that.

 

[klier]

Relatively low power?
It's had 604-680 horsepower and 1000Nm of torque since like 2005, and that has been competitive until recently.
I mean heck 630PS even today is still a healthy power figure.

Heck the M158 they send to Pagani which uses the same fundamental design can hit 800+ horsepower and 1100Nm quite easily.

The engine itself is fine.

That's the power the modern V8s make. I'd expect at least 150 hp over a V8 in a V12, but like Swissbob said the transmission is too weak for that. The full package of a V12 includes a proper gearbox designed for it.

The W220-W222 was around 500 hp btw, not 600. And before that it was like 360 hp for 467 years. All were underpowered.

 

[Dopebouy]

That's the power the modern V8s make. I'd expect at least 150 hp over a V8 in a V12, but like Swissbob said the transmission is too weak for that. The full package of a V12 includes a proper gearbox designed for it.

The engine needs a proper transmission which can handle the power.

The 9G is too weak for that.

How hard would it be to make the 9G tronic be able to handle upto 1500n.m from factory?

 

[Serpens]

How hard would it be to make the 9G tronic be able to handle upto 1500n.m from factory?

All new internals. Clutch packs, torque converter, input/output shafts, etc. It wouldn't be anything their engineers couldn't handle. It's just that pesky cost/benefit thing again.

 

[Swissbob]

How hard would it be to make the 9G tronic be able to handle upto 1500n.m from factory?

AFAIK no problem at all, and it’d allow Mercedes Benz to develop P2 Hybrid with V8 Power.

Did you see that the V8 PHEV were developed als P3 Hybrid with the electric motor on the rear axle ( GT63SE,SL63SE,S63SE), that’s because the 9G is too weak to handle an additional E-Motor between the engine and the gearbox.

On the S580e Mopf the power has been increased to 585PS from 510PS, but torque stays at 750Nm.

 

[klier]

This whole V12 thing is not going to happen, not even in the next universe.

But it makes some awesome discussions.

All new internals. Clutch packs, torque converter, input/output shafts, etc. It wouldn't be anything their engineers couldn't handle. It's just that pesky cost/benefit thing again.

Well you never know.....MB likes putting gearboxes even in their bespoke EVs.......

 

[Swissbob]

Let’s be honest, who’d have expected Mercedes Benz to develop the Tracksport, a Carbon Sportscar with Sidepipes and a Crossplane V8 ( most probably bespoke).

A new V12 might be as possible as that.

 

[klier]

Let’s be honest, who’d have expected Mercedes Benz to develop the Tracksport, a Carbon Sportscar with Sidepipes and a Crossplane V8 ( most probably bespoke).

A new V12 might be as possible as that.

Instead of all these AMG BS and CLE Mythos track versions, they should focus on what makes Mercedes Mercedes, which is high end luxury. Money and resources are imo way too much focussed on trying to be sporty, which MB simply never will be no matter how many F1 championships they win.

No sane person wants a sporty Benz, they buy a BMW for that. Stop trying to change your roots but embrace them.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

Instead of all these AMG BS and CLE Mythos track versions, they should focus on what makes Mercedes Mercedes, which is high end luxury. Money and resources are imo way too much focussed on trying to be sporty, which MB simply never will be no matter how many F1 championships they win.

No sane person wants a sporty Benz, they buy a BMW for that. Stop trying to change your roots but embrace them.

You say that, but the original 300SL was indeed a true lightweight sports car. As was the 500E and the 190E 2.4 16 Cosworth.

There's plenty of heritage for Mercedes in motorsports. The C190 GT and the SLS before that were and are pretty successful sports cars.

If we're going by the logic of heritage, BMW should cancel the i7/7er because nobody wants a luxurious Bimmer, they want a sport sedan, right?

 

[klier]

If we're going by the logic of heritage, BMW should cancel the i7/7er because nobody wants a luxurious Bimmer, they want a sport sedan, right?

Correct.

They have no business making such a good looking 7er.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

Correct.

You got me there lol!!

 

[klier]

You got me there lol!!

Under our management, I will bankrupt BMW within 5 years, and Dopebouy Mercedes in 2 years.....from my POV, he's just that tiny little bit more insane.

Carbon tubbed light weight sports sedans for the masses, with NA I6, RWD and 6 speed.