Hot! Mercedes-Benz, What's Next?

[AbsoluteUnit]

Well if Mercedes can offer a V12 engine to a small manufacturer such as Pagani, why can't they also sell a V12 in their own luxury models?

They can and do though.
Just not in markets where its legally challenging to do so.

Developing a brand new EU7 compliant V12 will either need the volume to justify the development cost, or you'll be paying absolutely through the f#cking nose for it as an option.

 

[Dopebouy]

Well if Mercedes can offer a V12 engine to a small manufacturer such as Pagani, why can't they also sell a V12 in their own luxury models? To me that doesn't make sense at all. They are selling 20K Maybach models a year and to sell 1000 to 2000 V12 models will make them more money than selling to Pagani. The only reason they are making the V12 engine for Pagani is for prestige.

I also don’t get it. We should be having an S600 V12 & V12 GLS by now.

They can and do though.
Just not in markets where its legally challenging to do so.

Developing a brand new EU7 compliant V12 will either need the volume to justify the development cost, or you'll be paying absolutely through the f#cking nose for it as an option.

People will pay for such a Top-End product. E-ABC with a smooth V12 would be the best car in the world.

 

[Uygar]

I also don’t get it. We should be having an S600 V12 & V12 GLS by now.

People will pay for such a Top-End product. E-ABC with a smooth V12 would be the best car in the world.

How do you know?

 

[Swissbob]

How do you know?

People who’d buy it or the best car in the world?

I am sure both would be true, If you want a smooth car.

For Nurburgring warriors it’s a different story however

 

[Uygar]

People who’d buy it or the best car in the world?

I am sure both would be true, If you want a smooth car.

For Nurburgring warriors it’s a different story however

It’s already great with a V8, so I don’t really see them developing a new V12 for the future models. Perhaps for the Mythos models, but that’s about it. But hey, maybe they would surprise us all, who knows.

 

[Swissbob]

It’s already great with a V8, so I don’t really see them developing a new V12 for the future models. Perhaps for the Mythos models, but that’s about it. But hey, maybe they would surprise us all, who knows.

The problem of the current V8 is the power delivery and the NVH, they’re relatively rough and rev happy compared with the V12.

Increasing the volume to 6L would make the engine far more effortless.

But on the other hand the sound is really delicious.

A V12 would be absolutely effortless und even quieter.

I’d prefer the V12 in S and GLS Maybachs, but in the G which is a bit rough the V8 fits far better.

 

[Serpens]

The AMG hybrid powertrain is unique to the C63 SE, GT63 SE, SL63 SE, S63 SE models as it is comes from their experience with the F1 cars. It is not the same as the plug in hybrid components used in their other cars. Been based on their F1 setup will mean components wont be cheap.

Well if Mercedes can offer a V12 engine to a small manufacturer such as Pagani, why can't they also sell a V12 in their own luxury models? To me that doesn't make sense at all. They are selling 20K Maybach models a year and to sell 1000 to 2000 V12 models will make them more money than selling to Pagani. The only reason they are making the V12 engine for Pagani is for prestige.

I never said it was the same as the other hybrids, I said it was shared with other models…the ones you just listed. That amortizes the cost. Them being very loosely based on their F1 setup doesn’t automatically mean it’s exorbitantly expensive btw, you’re acting as if it’s lifted a F1 vehicle itself. Regardless, the battery is the most expensive part and you see what happened - not enough sales caused them to phase it out. This same thing already happened to the V12 models. No sense in bringing them back.

You also misunderstand the relationship with Pagani. It’s not a prestige play for them, it’s a supplier play. Just like with Aston Martin. Then make pure profit from it and don’t have to worry about emissions or fuel economy requirements. It’s a very easy choice with no consequences.

 

[Dopebouy]

I never said it was the same as the other hybrids, I said it was shared with other models…the ones you just listed. That amortizes the cost. Them being very loosely based on their F1 setup doesn’t automatically mean it’s exorbitantly expensive btw, you’re acting as if it’s lifted a F1 vehicle itself. Regardless, the battery is the most expensive part and you see what happened - not enough sales caused them to phase it out. This same thing already happened to the V12 models. No sense in bringing them back.

I think they need the V12 Top-End even if it doesn’t sell much, it still has a Halo effect. Because if the V12 is not what defines the Top-End segment then what will ? The F1-inspired P3 i4 & P3 V8 already failed at that.

& An EV can never be Mercedes’s Halo product that’s not what they’re known for, Oil Crisis or Not.

You also misunderstand the relationship with Pagani. It’s not a prestige play for them, it’s a supplier play. Just like with Aston Martin. Then make pure profit from it and don’t have to worry about emissions or fuel economy requirements. It’s a very easy choice with no consequences.

The M177 did indeed work wonders for Aston Martin lately.

 

[Serpens]

The Maybach V12 is still there on the luxury end and AMG continues with ICE sports cars. EVs will take more top end share eventually, but I agree that’s not any time soon. Never say never though.

We disagree on how much of a halo effect the V12 provides in general though. They got phased out for a reason and it’s no surprise other automakers have reduced their 12 cylinder options or got rid of them altogether. We’re slowly moving into a new era where other things count more.

 

[Design FIRST]

EVs will take more top end share eventually, but I agree that’s not any time soon. Never say never though.

We’re slowly moving into a new era where other things count more.

An in realities anchored assessment. Refreshing.

 

[klier]

I never said it was the same as the other hybrids, I said it was shared with other models…the ones you just listed. That amortizes the cost.

Slapping two I6s together and making it EU7 compliant is not the R&D misery you make it out to be.

We disagree on how much of a halo effect the V12 provides in general though. They got phased out for a reason and it’s no surprise other automakers have reduced their 12 cylinder options or got rid of them altogether.

Other automakers have nothing to do with it, it's Mercedes Benz we're talking about. The other makes who had a V12 in a non sports car can be counted with one hand, and none come close to the potential Mercedes has with a V12. BMW really was the only one and even they have far less reach with a V12.

Mercedes has like 4 models or more they can put a V12 in as a halo model. And the V12 being the stepchild has everything to do with the fact that MBs V12 has been ancient for decades. No kidding people opt for the V8 when that engine is always brand spanking new.

 

[Dopebouy]

The Maybach V12 is still there on the luxury end and AMG continues with ICE sports cars. “EVs will take more top end share eventually, but I agree that’s not any time soon. Never say never though.”

Thing is Mercedes won’t make any sales if China has things like this for 1/3 of the price.

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Mind you this car will still be faster than upcoming AMG GT EV.

Slapping two I6s together and making it EU7 compliant is not the R&D misery you make it out to be.



Other automakers have nothing to do with it, it's Mercedes Benz we're talking about. The other makes who had a V12 in a non sports car can be counted with one hand, and none come close to the potential Mercedes has with a V12. BMW really was the only one and even they have far less reach with a V12.

Mercedes has like 4 models or more they can put a V12 in as a halo model. And the V12 being the stepchild has everything to do with the fact that MBs V12 has been ancient for decades. No kidding people opt for the V8 when that engine is always brand spanking new.

A V12 Based on 2 M256 EVO engines paired with 48v Mild-Hybrid to comply with E-ABC sounds like a winning formula

 

[Serpens]

Slapping two I6s together and making it EU7 compliant is not the R&D misery you make it out to be.

Never have I ever said it would be difficult, I said it wouldn't be worth the cost. Big difference.

Other automakers have nothing to do with it, it's Mercedes Benz we're talking about. The other makes who had a V12 in a non sports car can be counted with one hand, and none come close to the potential Mercedes has with a V12. BMW really was the only one and even they have far less reach with a V12.

Uh, Mercedes does not exist in a vacuum and observing other automakers serves as another indicator of where the market is heading. If even more prestigious brands (namely Bentley) are lessening availability of 12 cylinder engines that tells you something about the overall luxury car market. The market for pure luxury sedans, coupes, and convertibles has been very obviously declining for well over a decade. It's sports cars and SUVs that capture the top end most successfully and V12s aren't in high demand unless the brand's heritage is deeply tied to it, which is not the case with Mercedes.

This conversation is so funny to me because there's a refusal to acknowledge this phenomenon already played out - people stopped buying V12s when they were available. That's the end of it. We already watched the SL55 and SL600 sell for the same price right next to each other, just to have the vast majority of people flock to the SL55. It happened again with the S600 vs. S63, which Mercedes smartly realized meant an XL S-class was necessary in Mercedes-Maybach form to attract what little traditionalists are left. The luxury V12 convertible buyers that aren't glued to a Rolls-Royce have all died out and there was never a traditional market for V12 SUVs. Again, only brands that have deep 12 cylinder heritage even bother offering them (Ferrari and Rolls-Royce).

Thing is Mercedes won’t make any sales if China has things like this for 1/3 of the price.

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Mind you this car will still be faster than upcoming AMG GT EV.

A V12 Based on 2 M256 EVO engines paired with 48v Mild-Hybrid to comply with E-ABC sounds like a winning formula

It sounds like an awesome formula with no business case.

 

[Merc1]

The V12 debate continues lol.

M