Hot! Mercedes-Benz, What's Next?


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Being frank. You don't need to go very far to find people absolutely pillorying the C63SE for lacking the 'soul' of an AMG and pronouncing it an awful product. You don't need to look far at all to find people pointing and laughing at the commercial failures of EV sports cars.

"They" is everyone.

"Everyone" only in the context of the critics confined to these discussion boards ? Or other discussion boards ?
Can you find a single person on this very forum that likes the C63? Does anyone like the AMG EQE53? People like the Taycan, but are also "Haha, look how much of a failure it is commercially"

I can't.

I suppose you've now answered my question above.

So with that in mind, this idea that Mercedes are being myopic by bringing back in-line sixes and V8s to their AMGs is a bit silly to me. Because all evidence points to the fact that the market that's interested in expensive performance cars, do not want downsized motors and BEVs.

So, are you insinuating that this alleged current widespread sentiment will be chisled in stone ? That sentiment will remain the same in say..5-6 years time ? In 2-3 years time ?
But again, it's not like Mercedes has completely abandoned them either. The AMG EV portfolio still exists and is still in development. There are planned EQ AMGs for other models with 1000hp.

I agree. I do, however, simply question whether the considerable funds and efforts being invested in the development of ICEs will have proven to be prudent in say...the time span I previously mentioned. Short term boost that may be destined to eventually fizzle out in the not too distant future ? Investments that lead to a short term boost in revenues but fail to be amortized by the time that BEVs/REEVs clearly become vehicles of choice in market segments in which they are currently not ?
It's exactly the same thing that BMW is doing, but nobody runs around in those threads complaining about the short sightedness of making a G50 M3 with an inline 6.

I've lost a considerable amount of interest in tribal brand fan "BMW vs. M-B vs. Audi vs. Chinese manufacturer" narratives over the past several years. So I'll refrain from commenting on something that leaves me removed.

My subjective 2 Euro cents.
 
People like the Taycan, but are also "Haha, look how much of a failure it is commercially"
It's crucial to remember that the Taycan was a huge success for the first two or three years, which inspired Porsche's all-EV strategy. My theory for its decline is that the market for these vehicles has a ceiling, and when it becomes saturated, there is no one else who want them.
So with that in mind, this idea that Mercedes are being myopic by bringing back in-line sixes and V8s to their AMGs is a bit silly to me
It's good that they're making them again, but it took a train to hit them for them to realize it. The problem is the disorganization and the years they lost by not having them or not having foreseen them while their direct competition got rich selling them in all possible versions.
Mini G? They’re all the same car to the average carbuyer who just wants something that goes from A to B.
Do you think someone would consider a Mini G just for getting from point A to point B?
 
Do you think someone would consider a Mini G just for getting from point A to point B?
Yes because let’s be honest the Mini G is going to be bought by Instagram Baddies mostly, They are going to adore that car alot.

In that case it will be an A to B car, so to them a GLA,GLB & the Mini G will be the same car. Anyone who wants a cheaper G wagon that actually goes offroad will just get a Defender🤷‍♂️
 
"Everyone" only in the context of the critics confined to these discussion boards ? Or other discussion boards ?


I suppose you've now answered my question above.
Its not just this board. You can read a dime a dozen articles. You can watch video reviews. Board posts on this and other fora. And most pointedly, the sales figures which have been awful. And that should speak for itself.

So, are you insinuating that this alleged current widespread sentiment will be chisled in stone ? That sentiment will remain the same in say..5-6 years time ? In 2-3 years time ?
I'm not saying that at all. Mercedes reacted to awfully low demand in there AMG and EV offerings (which is true not just for Mercedes, but a whole host of manufacturers), by pivoting their strategy to align better with demand. Will that demand change with time? Yes. Will Mercedes adjust their strategy to suit that changing demand, well they had better. But again. It's not like they're divesting completely from their bespoke EV platforms. MB.EA and AMG.EA still exist and are still recieving healthy R&D.

I agree. I do, however, simply question whether the considerable funds and efforts being invested in the development of ICEs will have proven to be prudent in say...the time span I previously mentioned. Short term boost that may be destined to eventually fizzle out in the not too distant future ? Investments that lead to a short term boost in revenues but fail to be amortized by the time that BEVs/REEVs clearly become vehicles of choice in market segments in which they are currently not ?
I Don't understand your point. Development of anything costs billions. But Mercedes has plenty of billions to go around. Like I've said. Their reinvestment in ICE powertrains has not come at the expense of their investment in BEV drivetrains. They still own YASA. They still have partnerships with solid state battery companies. These things are ongoing. Hell, they've pulled FORWARD, the development of the upcoming E class EV.
They've just decided to eat additional costs and reduced margins to hedge their bets across a wider range of product offerings to suit the needs.
The alternative would be to plough ahead with their current strategy and watch as their sales completely fall off a cliff because nobody wants to buy them.

I've lost a considerable amount of interest in tribal brand fan "BMW vs. M-B vs. Audi vs. Chinese manufacturer" narratives over the past several years. So I'll refrain from commenting on something that leaves me removed.
You can avoid talking about it if you want. But this conversation isn't happening in a vacuum. Why is it a problem for Mercedes to invest in advanced ICE powertrains when other manufacturers are doing the exact same thing.
That is the point I want to address.

I used BMW as an example, because they offer a direct comparison to Mercedes in terms of brand and market positioning. Why is it uniquely bad and myopic for Mercedes to be hedging and reinvesting in ICE for markets that demand it, when BMW, VWAG, Stellantis, Ford and so on are doing the same thing?

What's the difference? Why is Mercedes' strategy here specifically, bad within the context of the industry?
 
I've read that Mercedes-Benz invested over 14 bio. Euros in the new/modified ICE powerplant program. Does a favorable return on investment appear an absolute given ? Especially pertaining to these times ? We may be on the very threshold of stepping into a completely rearranged geopolitical/geoeconomic ballgame. New markets emerging and old traditionally very strong markets becoming irrelevant ? Is M-B's investment a thoroughly contemplated, well-calculated bet ? A bonafide hedge or a waste of resources ? Or is it an act of hair-trigger actionism and therefore perhaps simply reckless ?

I really don't know how this will unfold in the end. Only my subjective suspicions. Not only applying to M-B, but the European automotive industry in general (here we seem to agree @AbsoluteUnit) . Damn interesting discussion matter, though.
 
Its not just this board. You can read a dime a dozen articles. You can watch video reviews. Board posts on this and other fora. And most pointedly, the sales figures which have been awful. And that should speak for itself.


I'm not saying that at all. Mercedes reacted to awfully low demand in there AMG and EV offerings (which is true not just for Mercedes, but a whole host of manufacturers), by pivoting their strategy to align better with demand. Will that demand change with time? Yes. Will Mercedes adjust their strategy to suit that changing demand, well they had better. But again. It's not like they're divesting completely from their bespoke EV platforms. MB.EA and AMG.EA still exist and are still recieving healthy R&D.


I Don't understand your point. Development of anything costs billions. But Mercedes has plenty of billions to go around. Like I've said. Their reinvestment in ICE powertrains has not come at the expense of their investment in BEV drivetrains. They still own YASA. They still have partnerships with solid state battery companies. These things are ongoing. Hell, they've pulled FORWARD, the development of the upcoming E class EV.
They've just decided to eat additional costs and reduced margins to hedge their bets across a wider range of product offerings to suit the needs.
The alternative would be to plough ahead with their current strategy and watch as their sales completely fall off a cliff because nobody wants to buy them.


You can avoid talking about it if you want. But this conversation isn't happening in a vacuum. Why is it a problem for Mercedes to invest in advanced ICE powertrains when other manufacturers are doing the exact same thing.
That is the point I want to address.

I used BMW as an example, because they offer a direct comparison to Mercedes in terms of brand and market positioning. Why is it uniquely bad and myopic for Mercedes to be hedging and reinvesting in ICE for markets that demand it, when BMW, VWAG, Stellantis, Ford and so on are doing the same thing?

What's the difference? Why is Mercedes' strategy here specifically, bad within the context of the industry?
I stopped trying to argue with this guy the minute he replied to my post about how the EU is killing AMG when i realised he is one of these “EV is the future” dudes i was talking about🤣🤷‍♂️

i don’t know if he is ragebaiting or that’s how he thinks on a daily.
 
I stopped trying to argue with this guy the minute he replied to my post about how the EU is killing AMG when i realised he is one of these “EV is the future” dudes i was talking about🤣🤷‍♂️

i don’t know if he is ragebaiting or that’s how he thinks on a daily.

Have we actually directly engaged in "an argument" ? At most, indirectly in the context of a more general discussion involving several. I do not recall otherwise.
 
I've read that Mercedes-Benz invested over 14 bio. Euros in the new/modified ICE powerplant program. Does a favorable return on investment appear an absolute given ? Especially pertaining to these times ? We may be on the very threshold of stepping into a completely rearranged geopolitical/geoeconomic ballgame. New markets emerging and old traditionally very strong markets becoming irrelevant ? Is M-B's investment a thoroughly contemplated, well-calculated bet ? A bonafide hedge or a waste of resources ? Or is it an act of hair-trigger actionism and therefore perhaps simply reckless ?

I really don't know how this will unfold in the end. Only my subjective suspicions. Not only applying to M-B, but the European automotive industry in general (here we seem to agree @AbsoluteUnit) . Damn interesting discussion matter, though.
I mean theyve committed to spend over €40 billion into BEV technology. So far that hasn't provided a return.

But it is a good thing to invest in the technology nonetheless. And they are. They've not cancelled any EV products so far. And their roadmap has pretty much as many BEV models as ICE.

AMG is a specific brand that specifically sells on raucous ICE motors. So allowing them to do what they must is better for the AMG brand equity which has f#cking died following the initial electrification strategy.
 
Being frank. You don't need to go very far to find people absolutely pillorying the C63SE for lacking the 'soul' of an AMG and pronouncing it an awful product. You don't need to look far at all to find people pointing and laughing at the commercial failures of EV sports cars.

"They" is everyone.

Can you find a single person on this very forum that likes the C63? Does anyone like the AMG EQE53? People like the Taycan, but are also "Haha, look how much of a failure it is commercially"

I can't.

So with that in mind, this idea that Mercedes are being myopic by bringing back in-line sixes and V8s to their AMGs is a bit silly to me. Because all evidence points to the fact that the market that's interested in expensive performance cars, do not want downsized motors and BEVs.

But again, it's not like Mercedes has completely abandoned them either. The AMG EV portfolio still exists and is still in development. There are planned EQ AMGs for other models with 1000hp. So I don't follow the logic...
It's exactly the same thing that BMW is doing, but nobody runs around in those threads complaining about the short sightedness of making a G50 M3 with an inline 6.

The C63SE has several Problems.

First of all the Name, everybody expects a V8.

C63S AMG drivers were informed well in advance ( you could still order the C63S W205 when a lot of dealers informed their customers), Mercedes Benz was warned from the Dealers that nobody wants car.

They should cancel it, is all they told the people in Affalterbach.

Which they eventually did on the CLE63 ( which was originally planned with the M139 drivetrain).

But on the C63SE they were too stubborn. They told the dealers and customers in the car clinic that they’re convinced that this car will be successful.

The dealers were right nobody bought that bloody thing.

Same goes for the EQS or the AMG Version which nobody bought as well.

Those cars were failures, and they couldn’t believe the terrible feedback they got.
 
The C63SE has several Problems.

First of all the Name, everybody expects a V8.

C63S AMG drivers were informed well in advance ( you could still order the C63S W205 when a lot of dealers informed their customers), Mercedes Benz was warned from the Dealers that nobody wants car.

They should cancel it, is all they told the people in Affalterbach.

Which they eventually did on the CLE63 ( which was originally planned with the M139 drivetrain).

But on the C63SE they were too stubborn. They told the dealers and customers in the car clinic that they’re convinced that this car will be successful.

The dealers were right nobody bought that bloody thing.

Same goes for the EQS or the AMG Version which nobody bought as well.

Those cars were failures, and they couldn’t believe the terrible feedback they got.
All of this makes it crazy for them to even think about not bringing back the V8 in the C63.

M
 
All of this makes it crazy for them to even think about not bringing back the V8 in the C63.

M
I agree with you.

I have to add one information, I remember the first time I talked to my dealer about the C63SE becoming a 4 banger when I bought my A238, this was in Dezember 2019, the W205 C63S was Build until march 2023.

I originally wanted a A205 with the 63 engine but with 4matic, he told me the successor will get the 4matic but with the A45 engine and an additional electric motor. I couldn’t believe it, a few weeks later he confirmed it another time, and he told me that Affalterbach has been warned, they should cancel it.

I immediately asked him what the other customers think about that, he told me that all of them want to keep the V8 and most of them ordered an new one.

Nobody wanted that 4 banger.

My conclusion is, that they were simply too stubborn.
 
I agree with you.

I have to add one information, I remember the first time I talked to my dealer about the C63SE becoming a 4 banger when I bought my A238, this was in Dezember 2019, the W205 C63S was Build until march 2023.

I originally wanted a A205 with the 63 engine but with 4matic, he told me the successor will get the 4matic but with the A45 engine and an additional electric motor. I couldn’t believe it, a few weeks later he confirmed it another time, and he told me that Affalterbach has been warned, they should cancel it.

I immediately asked him what the other customers think about that, he told me that all of them want to keep the V8 and most of them ordered an new one.

Nobody wanted that 4 banger.

My conclusion is, that they were simply too stubborn.
Thank god the market didn’t react well🙌
 
I agree with you.

I have to add one information, I remember the first time I talked to my dealer about the C63SE becoming a 4 banger when I bought my A238, this was in Dezember 2019, the W205 C63S was Build until march 2023.

I originally wanted a A205 with the 63 engine but with 4matic, he told me the successor will get the 4matic but with the A45 engine and an additional electric motor. I couldn’t believe it, a few weeks later he confirmed it another time, and he told me that Affalterbach has been warned, they should cancel it.

I immediately asked him what the other customers think about that, he told me that all of them want to keep the V8 and most of them ordered an new one.

Nobody wanted that 4 banger.

My conclusion is, that they were simply too stubborn.
Mercedes has been executing so many years and doing it their way that they couldn’t begin to understand that they made a mistake lol. That’s Mercedes-Benz. However they always begrudgingly pivot after having their nose rubbed in it

M
 
Mercedes-Benz in Crisis: Why Ola Källenius's Strategy Failed?

Mercedes-Benz Group AG is in a deep crisis whose causes extend far beyond economic fluctuations. Falling profits, weakening business in China, and increasing competitive pressure in the electric vehicle market reveal that the premium manufacturer is grappling with structural problems. At the heart of the matter lies CEO Ola Källenius's strategic direction in recent years; he consistently focused the company on luxury, high prices, and low production volumes. What initially seemed like a clever move to increase profit margins is now proving to be a risky miscalculation.

Mercedes focused on the principle of "value over volume" and consciously withdrew from broad market segments. Vehicles became significantly more expensive, more exclusive, and more suitable for affluent customers. This model worked as long as global markets remained stable and demand for luxury vehicles increased. However, with rising inflation, geopolitical uncertainty, and changing consumer attitudes, this strategy has come under pressure. Today's buyers are far more price-sensitive, while competitors are successfully capturing the mid-price segment. In conclusion, Mercedes has lost not only sales volume but also market presence and importance.

The problem is particularly evident in the electric vehicle sector. From the beginning, Mercedes positioned its electric vehicles as large, powerful, and expensive premium products. However, the market has evolved in a different direction. For many customers, prestige and status are less important when it comes to electric cars; instead, range, efficiency, software quality, and an attractive price-performance ratio are key. While Mercedes is still trying to redefine the electric luxury class, manufacturers like BYD have rapidly gained market share with technically competitive, significantly cheaper models. The result has been high development costs and disappointing sales figures.

In addition, there are problematic developments in the Chinese market, which for a long time was Mercedes' most important growth engine. Today, China has become a risk factor. Demand for classic luxury sedans is declining, local manufacturers are better accommodating customer tastes, and are responding more quickly to technological trends. Mercedes underestimated this change. Local development, software expertise, and pricing flexibility played a secondary role for far too long. In conclusion, sales are falling and profit margins are narrowing in a market once considered safe.

Therefore, the current decline in profits is not a short-term anomaly, but the result of a strategy that assumed ideal conditions and left no room for maneuver in times of crisis. High fixed costs, low volume flexibility, an excessively narrow model range in the entry and mid-range segments, and strong reliance on only a few markets have increased the company's risk of decline. Luxury has increasingly become an end in itself, no longer a result of obvious technological superiority.

Mercedes has announced a necessary change of course. The goal is to cater to a wider customer base with future models, standardize platforms, and significantly reduce cost structures. Instead of a purely luxury-focused approach, the goal is now "profitable growth." However, this transformation is taking place under significant time pressure. Lost market share cannot be quickly regained, especially in China and the highly competitive electric vehicle segment.

Mercedes is thus at a critical juncture. The brand remains strong and maintains its global recognition, but strategic overconfidence has undermined trust. Luxury without scalability, electric mobility without clear market adaptation, and a belated rethinking of the Chinese business have put the company in a difficult position. The coming years will show whether Mercedes can successfully transition from a confident luxury brand to a competitive, technology-driven mobility provider, or whether the current crisis will become a long-term structural problem.

 
"The coming years will show whether Mercedes can successfully transition from a confident luxury brand to a competitive, technology-driven mobility provider, or whether the current crisis will become a long-term structural problem."

The necessity of a sweeping strategic as well as operative overhaul and the precious little time to achieve it is a proverbial loaded gun pressed against M-B's temple. Can the new MMA and MB.EA vehicles provide some breathing room that would be akin to the hand holding the gun slowly dropping from the temple to the side ?
 

Mercedes-Benz

Mercedes-Benz Group AG is headquartered in Stuttgart, Germany. Established in 1926, Mercedes-Benz Group produces consumer luxury vehicles and light commercial vehicles badged as Mercedes-Benz, Mercedes-AMG, and Mercedes-Maybach. Its origin lies in Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft's 1901 Mercedes and Carl Benz's 1886 Benz Patent-Motorwagen, which is widely regarded as the first internal combustion engine in a self-propelled automobile. The slogan for the brand is "the best or nothing".
Official website: Mercedes-Benz (Global), Mercedes-Benz (USA)

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