Hot! Mercedes-Benz, What's Next?

[AndreB]

Ultimately though, I do strongly believe the EUs overly ambitious emissions targets have f#cked their own manufacturers over.

So how come startups like Lucid and Rivian were able to build very good EV's from scratch. I doubt they had more money than the Germans. Its the lazy efforts and slow to adapt leadership that lead to bad EV's.

CLA will be the first EV from MB without hundreds of ECU's, 6 years after their first electric car the EQC.

 

[Sunny]

EUs overly ambitious emissions targets

If they are "overly ambitious", what is the right target?

 

[Matski]

EU emissions targets have been poorly conceived and badly executed. It doesn't matter where you stand on different propulsion technologies, if you get familiar with the regulations I'd say it's almost impossible to come to the conclusion they've not been deeply flawed in one way or another- they're how we end up with the XM being the regulatory choice over the 116d.

If EVs are better for the consumer, you don't need targets, legislation, subsidies etc.

 

[Sunny]

EU emissions targets have been poorly conceived and badly executed. It doesn't matter where you stand on different propulsion technologies, if you get familiar with the regulations I'd say it's almost impossible to come to the conclusion they've not been deeply flawed in one way or another- they're how we end up with the XM being the regulatory choice over the 116d.

I don't know the ins and outs of EU law making, but if it is anything like in the US, I would be least surprised if the car/oil industry lobby played a part in making it so.

If EVs are better for the consumer, you don't need targets, legislation, subsidies etc.

I am guessing you are also against vaccine mandates? Or other similar regulations that sacrifices personal freedom for collective good?

 

[Matski]

I don't know the ins and outs of EU law making, but if it is anything like in the US, I would be least surprised if the car/oil industry lobby played a part in making it so.

It absolutely did, the difference between what the French and the Germans lobbied for is stark. German lobbying favoured heavy hybrids, and ultimately it won out. Like I said, deeply flawed.

I am guessing you are also against vaccine mandates? Or other similar regulations that sacrifices personal freedom for collective good?

This is a poor analogy. I live in a country with an almost entirely socialised healthcare system.. there is no individual cost to getting a vaccine. The true cost is distributed across all government tax revenue in order to be as cheap as possible. The same simply isn't true for new car sales, ANY incentive of any kind favours the small, wealthy, percentage of the population that buys new cars, and cars use infrastructure that is overwhelmingly subsidised by the tax payer irrespective of whether they have a car or not. It's just not comparable.

 

[Sunny]

This is a poor analogy. I live in a country with an almost entirely socialised healthcare system.. there is no individual cost to getting a vaccine. The true cost is distributed across all government tax revenue in order to be as cheap as possible. The same simply isn't true for new car sales, ANY incentive of any kind favours the small, wealthy, percentage of the population that buys new cars, and cars use infrastructure that is overwhelmingly subsidised by the tax payer irrespective of whether they have a car or not. It's just not comparable.

It is only a poor analogy because you are interpreting it narrowly where the only cost is financial. Many believe there is a health or personal faith cost to taking a vaccine, so yes, there is an individual cost to being forced to take one.

It also seems you are viewing the benefits of someone driving an EV as being restricted to just the driver, but that’s not accurate either. EV adoption benefits society at large both immediately through reduced pollution and in the future by making EVs more viable/affordable for everyone. And I am sure that is the prime motivation for any subsidies/incentives and not to see a bunch of rich folks driving around new EVs. I don't know the specifics of the incentives where you are, but in the US there are both limits on the cost of the vehicle as well as the buyer's personal income to get any kind of incentives. Which beings me to my last point -

It sounds like your real concern is the fairness of how the taxation and subsidies are structured. Again, I don't know the specifics of the applicable laws where you live, but I get the general sentiment. I feel the same way. I am sure I am subsidizing things I rather not, like obese people, alcoholics, smokers and substance abusers. I view it as the cost of choosing to live in a society vs wilderness and my recourse is to vote for policies that better align with my own views on fair distribution.

 

[hannaz]

Came across this.. are already testing it which means are we going to see the real one or concept

 

[Design FIRST]

Came across this.. are already testing it which means are we going to see the real one or concept

But isn't this a Mercedes-Benz MB.EA (S) GLC test prototype ?

 

[Serpens]

But isn't this a Mercedes-Benz MB.EA (S) GLC test prototype ?

Yes, that’s not the AMG SUV.

 

[SCOTT27]

The AMG branded SUV was inevitable.

 

[Fastpaddy]

You are ignoring the fact they are selling "150k" evs cause they have not figured how to sell a "40k" one. And that is because they are late. They are selling 150k vehicles that perform worse than a 50k one. And then wondering why no one is buying it. If they don't go through this they will never figure out how to sell a 50k one that is competitive.


That is some wishful thinking. Short terms blips aside, EV market share is growing, so the idea you will be fine if you just keep making ICEVs is ridiculous. Yes, some niches like sports cars, the demand for ICEVs will be robust and will be fine, but vast amount of cars Audi/BMW/Mercedes/VW sells are not that. They are just overpriced A to B vehicles with a veneer of luxury and much marketing hype. Their sales will get decimated, exactly the way they are getting decimated in China now. The Chinese market is just 5 year ahead.

As for emission laws, you do realize how much more polluted the air would be if there were none? You are welcome to move to a city in countries with lax emission laws and find out. I love ICE cars as much as anyone else here, but not more than clean air. And while I can be a selfish prick, not one big enough to think my right to drive ICE cars is above someone's right to breath clean air.

If pollutions really cared about clean air they would have outlawed SUV’s decades ago.

All the gains made by tighter emissions laws have been negated by the rise of the SUV

 

[Tuffode]

If pollutions really cared about clean air they would have outlawed SUV’s decades ago.

All the gains made by tighter emissions laws have been negated by the rise of the SUV

It's insane.

In the US the amount you are allowed to pollute more, the bigger the car is.

"The Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) footprint-based emissions regulation requires automakers to achieve a fleetwide carbon dioxide (CO2) standard based on a vehicle's footprint"

And a BMW X3 classifies as a "light truck" while a 3 Series is a "passenger car". Light trucks have way more lax regulations. No wonder they are selling more and more of these, they are basically incentivized to across the board.

Even with the EV tax credits, you only get a $7,500 rebate in a passenger cars if it is under 55k, but if it's a crossover you can have it be up to 80k. Ridiculous.

 

[AbsoluteUnit]

It's insane.

In the US the amount you are allowed to pollute more, the bigger the car is.

"The Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) footprint-based emissions regulation requires automakers to achieve a fleetwide carbon dioxide (CO2) standard based on a vehicle's footprint"

And a BMW X3 classifies as a "light truck" while a 3 Series is a "passenger car". Light trucks have way more lax regulations. No wonder they are selling more and more of these, they are basically incentivized to across the board.

Even with the EV tax credits, you only get a $7,500 rebate in a passenger cars if it is under 55k, but if it's a crossover you can have it be up to 80k. Ridiculous.

Its also might explain why cars are getting heavier.

 

[Rolf]

Anybody interested in a new Mercedes in Germany there are some good discounts of up to 15%.

Mercedes discounts of up to 15% possible

Here are all built-to-order discounts for all Mercedes cars listed
Compared to September 2024, there are only changes in the discount level for some model series.
Here are the main changes:

• The CLE Cabrio receives 11% discount again instead of 9%
• The S 63 AMG E Performance now receives a 7% discount instead of 0%

The GLA receives a 15% discount, making it the highest discount of all Mercedes series when ordered built-to-order.

Due to the significantly higher discount on the GLA compared to the A-Class and B-Class, the GLA, which is actually much more expensive in terms of gross list price, is now very close to the A-Class and B-Class and is therefore very attractively priced.

	List price including VAT	After discount	Discount
A 180	37,401.70	34,035.55	9%
B 180	38,413.20	35,340.14	8%
GLA 180	44,952.25	38,209.41	15%

With the EQE, the EQE 300 receives a 0% discount, while all other EQE sedans including AMG receive a 3% discount. This makes the gap between the EQE 300 and EQE 350+ a little smaller:

	List price including VAT	After discount	Discount
EQE 300	67,187.40	67,184.40	0%
EQE 350+	71,411.90	69,269.54	3%

The Mercedes discounts for built-to-order orders:

		Built-to-Order
		November 16, 2024	September 10, 2024	July 23, 2024	December 27, 2023
Model	series	Discount	Discount	Discount	Discount
A-Class (facelift)	W177	9%	9%	9%	7%
A-Class (facelift)	V177	9%	9%	9%	7%
B-Class (facelift)	W247	8%	8%	8%	8%
CLA facelift	C118	7%	7%	7%	7%
CLA Shooting Brake facelift	X118	7%	7%	7%	7%
CLE Coupé	C236	11%	11%	11%	5%
CLE Cabrio	A236	11%	9%	11%
C-Class	W206	12%	12%	12%	7%
C-Class PHEV	W206	8%	8%	8%
C 43 AMG	W206	12%	12%	12%
C 63 SE AMG	W206	8%	8%	8%
C-Class Estate	S206	7%	7%	7%	7%
C-Class Estate PHEV	S206	6%	6%	6%
C 43 AMG T-Model	S206	7%	7%	7%
C 63 SE AMG T-Model	S206	6%	6%	6%
C-Class Estate All-Terrain		7%	7%	7%	7%
E-Class	W214	6%	6%	6%	6%
E-Class T-Model / All-Terrain	S214	6%	6%	6%	6%
EQA facelift	H243	11%	11%	11%	3%
EQB facelift	X243	11%	11%	11%	3%
EQE 300	V295	0%	0%
EQE	V295	3%	3%	3%	3%
EQE SUV	X294	9%	9%	8%	3%
EQS	V297	3%	3%	3%	3%
EQS SUV	X296	3%	3%	3%	3%
Maybach EQS SUV		0%	0%	0%
GLA facelift	H247	15%	15%	6%	6%
GLB facelift	X247	6%	6%	6%	6%
GLC SUV including 43 AMG	X254	8%	8%	8%	6%
GLC SUV PHEV incl. 63er	X254	6%	6%	6%
GLC Coupé	C254	6%	6%	6%	6%
GLE facelift	V167	5%	5%	5%	5%
GLE Coupé facelift	C167	5%	5%	5%	5%
GLS facelift incl. AMG	X167	5%	5%	5%	5%
GLS Maybach	X167	3%	3%	0%
S-Class	W223	7%	7%	7%	7%
S 63 ES AMG	V223	7%		0%
S-Class Maybach	Z223	3%	3%	0%
SL	R232	6%	6%	6%	6%
AMG GT Coupé	C192	3%	3%	3%	3%
AMG GT 4-door	X290	3%	3%	3%	0%
G-Class	W465	0%	0%	0%

 

[klugscheisser87]

Came across this.. are already testing it which means are we going to see the real one or concept

Oh dear, I hope the chromed greenhouse stripes are just part of the camo.

 

[Design FIRST]

This "uprighted front/hoodline facelift" of recently spotted MB.EA (s) based electric GLC prototypes leaves me wondering whether M-B has actually fitted that new 1.5L 4 cylinder in the front motor bay:

Perhaps the modularity of the new MB.EA, AMG.EA and VAN.EA architectures will permit ICE hybridization after all. That would be an about face as these platforms were reportedly intended to be "electric only".

 

[Serpens]

This "uprighted front/hoodline facelift" of recently spotted MB.EA (s) based electric GLC prototypes leaves me wondering whether M-B has actually fitted that new 1.5L 4 cylinder in the front motor bay:

Perhaps the modularity of the new MB.EA, AMG.EA and VAN.EA architectures will permit ICE hybridization after all. That would be an about face as these platforms were reportedly intended to be "electric only".

Seriously doubt it. They're not discontinuing the ICE/Hybrid GLC for starters. Also the MMA platform was engineered to accept an ICE motor from the start unlike MB.EA and the others.

 

[fortuner]

Seriously doubt it. They're not discontinuing the ICE/Hybrid GLC for starters. Also the MMA platform was engineered to accept an ICE motor from the start unlike MB.EA and the others.

What is the car above replacement of the EQC ?

 

[Serpens]

What is the car above replacement of the EQC ?

Yep. It'll sit right alongside the ICE/hybrid GLC. The C-class will also have an EV model sold alongside it.

 

[Rolf]

I am really curious to know how efficient this new M254 1.5 mild hybrid will be and whether it will be able to make the 93.6g/km CO2 (4L/100km) limit for 2025.

They did mention it has the economy to match a diesel, but that would mean a 20% or more improvement compared to the current petrol engines, which I am not sure this is possible to achieve.

2025 to 2034

The targets that will apply from 2025 onwards are based on the WLTP (Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure) and were set out in Commission Implementing Decision (EU) 2023/1623:

• Cars: 93,6 g CO2/km (2025-2029) and 49,5 g CO2/km (2030-2034)
• Vans: 153,9 g CO2/km (2025-2029) and 90,6 g CO2/km (2030-2034)