LFA Lexus LFA II Rumors: Twice the Car, Twice the Price

[Guibo]

I bring the Koenigsegg into this because it too has a co-planar meeting of door panel and dash. For the type of components the LFA has (which is to say, that which the Huayra does not), it has very good fit.
"Looks more robust" is not childish at all. Unlike the Pagani's pedals, the LFA's pedals have basically been through multiple Nurburgring 24 Hr races. Which might explain why the LFA's pedal arms are so wide. Meanwhile, the Zonda R's subframe cracked open after a handful of laps on the 'Ring...think the rest of the car is as robustly built as the LFA? The Zonda's brake pedal doesn't look highly polished. It seems to have machining marks that any competent mill could acheive. That and the entire hinge assembly looks pretty much the same as it is on the Huayra.

My point was that the LFA has a bespoke engine (ie, built for it and none other so far) and a bespoke monocoque built in-house. You can't claim the same for the Enzo; and you want to talk about the interior of the LFA vs the Enzo? The Enzo hasn't much of one to speak of. At least one of Horacio's customers with an Enzo is on record as saying the interior leaves a lot to be desired. I doubt you will find the same from an LFA customer.
Being bespoke doesn't mean it has to be built in-house. You've completely missed my point. I could have a bespoke suit made to my particular taste and anatomy; simply because I didn't make it myself doesn't mean it's not bespoke. The Macca's engine is bespoke because no other car uses it; that engine was built from the ground up for that particular application. Same can't be said of the Enzo engine and transmission, which have gone on in the MC12 (shared tub), or 599 variants, and the FF. The LFA does trade in-house engine development for the tub (actually, it was Toyota/Lexus who chose the 24hr races for durability testing, not Yamaha), where the CGT trades in-house CF development. So, contrary to your original statement in this thread, the LFA can be mentioned in the same sentence with the CGT.

 

[Mafalda]

Which one is being twice the units and twice the price?

...both...

LF-A I: 500 units
500 * 2 = 1,000 Units

LF-A I: $ 375,000 (cause leasing, final price is $ 421,000)
375,000 * 2 = $ 750,000

 

[Mafalda]

...LF-A Vs Huayra?
nothing in common

 

[Levi68]

One detail I want everybody to know, is that the engine is not built by Yamaha. Toyota and Yamaha mutually own each other and work together on performance engines. In otehr words, Yamaha is the engine tuner of Toyota, just as M is of BMW, AMG of Mercedes or Quattro of Audi.

 

[Gianclaudio]

I bring the Koenigsegg into this because it too has a co-planar meeting of door panel and dash. For the type of components the LFA has (which is to say, that which the Huayra does not), it has very good fit.
"Looks more robust" is not childish at all. Unlike the Pagani's pedals, the LFA's pedals have basically been through multiple Nurburgring 24 Hr races. Which might explain why the LFA's pedal arms are so wide. Meanwhile, the Zonda R's subframe cracked open after a handful of laps on the 'Ring...think the rest of the car is as robustly built as the LFA? The Zonda's brake pedal doesn't look highly polished. It seems to have machining marks that any competent mill could acheive. That and the entire hinge assembly looks pretty much the same as it is on the Huayra.

My point was that the LFA has a bespoke engine (ie, built for it and none other so far) and a bespoke monocoque built in-house. You can't claim the same for the Enzo; and you want to talk about the interior of the LFA vs the Enzo? The Enzo hasn't much of one to speak of. At least one of Horacio's customers with an Enzo is on record as saying the interior leaves a lot to be desired. I doubt you will find the same from an LFA customer.
Being bespoke doesn't mean it has to be built in-house. You've completely missed my point. I could have a bespoke suit made to my particular taste and anatomy; simply because I didn't make it myself doesn't mean it's not bespoke. The Macca's engine is bespoke because no other car uses it; that engine was built from the ground up for that particular application. Same can't be said of the Enzo engine and transmission, which have gone on in the MC12 (shared tub), or 599 variants, and the FF. The LFA does trade in-house engine development for the tub (actually, it was Toyota/Lexus who chose the 24hr races for durability testing, not Yamaha), where the CGT trades in-house CF development. So, contrary to your original statement in this thread, the LFA can be mentioned in the same sentence with the CGT.

Guibo, dude, you're running in circles. Now you start comparing the LFA interior against the Enzo. We were talking about Pagani and LFA. Great to hear that the Lexus pedals withstand a 24 hr race; how do we know if the Pagani's doesn't? And yes, brake doesn't seem polished, but acelarator does. What will be the excuse this time? Lexus made theirs satin to avoid reflections and incadilate the driver?

LFA's engine haven't been used on anything else, perhaps because Lexus doesn't have anything remotely close to a sport car?
It's obviously different case from Ferrari or, Lambo or etc whos business case is to make supercars.
Let's wait and see, maybe Lexus built another supercar and use some parts of the engine. In that case, will be the LFA automatically be a less special car?

My original statement said you can't compare a Pagani to a Porsche, or Lexus, or Ferrari o whatever you want to add, obviously, you interpreted the wrong way and now I've to read silly comments like the pedals are more robust or the horrible shutline is the same as in a Koenigsegg.... -.-

 

[Guibo]

Guibo, dude, you're running in circles. Now you start comparing the LFA interior against the Enzo. We were talking about Pagani and LFA. Great to hear that the Lexus pedals withstand a 24 hr race; how do we know if the Pagani's doesn't? And yes, brake doesn't seem polished, but acelarator does. What will be the excuse this time? Lexus made theirs satin to avoid reflections and incadilate the driver?

LFA's engine haven't been used on anything else, perhaps because Lexus doesn't have anything remotely close to a sport car?
It's obviously different case from Ferrari or, Lambo or etc whos business case is to make supercars.
Let's wait and see, maybe Lexus built another supercar and use some parts of the engine. In that case, will be the LFA automatically be a less special car?

My original statement said you can't compare a Pagani to a Porsche, or Lexus, or Ferrari o whatever you want to add, obviously, you interpreted the wrong way and now I've to read silly comments like the pedals are more robust or the horrible shutline is the same as in a Koenigsegg.... -.-

I think by looking at the delicate stalks of the pedal, the exposed hinge/spring assembly (as I've said, have you ever driven a car with a floor-mounted setup for any length of time and then removed the floor mat to see what accumulates in the pedalbox?), it looks as if the Pagani will be more fragile. The simple fact is, none of the Paganis have been torture-tested to the same extent the LFA has.
Wow, so now the clear defining point of what makes the Huayra interior better is a polished accelerator pedal. Everyone bow down to the polished accelerator pedal!

Like I said, if I were an LFA customer and I found out that Lexus were re-using components for this "LFA II," I'd be pretty pissed. Why do you think I would have said that, if not for thinking the LFA would be less bespoke, which was one of its huge selling points? If the new car uses the same CF tub, the same engine (doubtful), the same brakes, the same transmission, etc, then yes, obviously the LFA would be a less special car. What's so hard to understand about that?
It really doesn't matter why the LFA engine is not used in other cars. The simple fact is that it's not used. That McLaren (at the time of the F1) had no other car with which to share the BMW V12 has no bearing on the bespoke nature of the engine. Obviously, Ferrari use that engine in other sports cars because it would be prohibitively expensive to develop a new engine from the ground up for each application; they are cutting development time and costs. Such is the similar vein for things that are not made in a bespoke manner. Would you think the engine in the FF is any less special if it were the same V8 unit out of the 458, which has seen basic use in other vehicles before? Clearly, the bespoke nature of the car changes and you can't use the fact that Ferrari are in the business of sports cars to explain it away; in fact, it is the reason for why such a car, if it were built, is less bespoke.

Do you honestly think the "horrible shutline" in the LFA's carbon-on-carbon door panels is the result of sloppy workmanship or an otherwise lapse in paying attention to details? Or, more likely, is it there for a good reason? (I have already mentioned one good reason, and there is another.) Should I be saying the same for the massive gaps in the Huayra's body panels too?

...both...

LF-A I: 500 units
500 * 2 = 1,000 Units

Where did you see that they are doing 1,000 units?

 

[Gianclaudio]

Guibo, a damm Huayra or LFA is not used as a everyday car. If you happen to have the money to own a Huayra, is quite a bit possible (being sarcastic) you have the money to keep the car clean; mats and hinges included. The point is the pedals look miles more artistic and special than those in the LFA, like or not; is ridiculous to argument LFA's are more robust just to justify they don't look anywhere as close. So must be LFA's plastic switches or generic looking center console, I guess.
So following your logic (or lack) the LFA's interior score another points in having ulphostery mats, which are easier to clean/mantain than Pagani's leather....
And then, a industrial truck must exceel at the feel good factor, as every componet is heavy duty and last forever
Why don't we discuss safety too?

And I solely mention the pedals as a puntual example, I didn't even start comparing the look, design and execution of the control buttons, switchgear, dials, rearview mirrors, sunshade hinges, or the plastic airbox and intakes all over the LFA's engine bay because I see more childish arguments coming.

I'm off this discussion, there is no point trying to arguee anymore, if you think the LFA is the second came of the McLaren F1 and the new king of supercars which set benchmarks not matched by anything, or that it's interior is more special looking or artistic than a Pagani, well it's up to you to believe your own lie.

Regards

 

[Guibo]

Guibo, a damm Huayra or LFA is not used as a everyday car. If you happen to have the money to own a Huayra, is quite a bit possible (being sarcastic) you have the money to keep the car clean; mats and hinges included. The point is the pedals look miles more artistic and special than those in the LFA, like or not; is ridiculous to argument LFA's are more robust just to justify they don't look anywhere as close. So must be LFA's plastic switches or generic looking center console, I guess.
So following your logic (or lack) the LFA's interior score another points in having ulphostery mats, which are easier to clean/mantain than Pagani's leather....
And then, a industrial truck must exceel at the feel good factor, as every componet is heavy duty and last forever
Why don't we discuss safety too?

And I solely mention the pedals as a puntual example, I didn't even start comparing the look, design and execution of the control buttons, switchgear, dials, rearview mirrors, sunshade hinges, or the plastic airbox and intakes all over the LFA's engine bay because I see more childish arguments coming.

I'm off this discussion, there is no point trying to arguee anymore, if you think the LFA is the second came of the McLaren F1 and the new king of supercars which set benchmarks not matched by anything, or that it's interior is more special looking or artistic than a Pagani, well it's up to you to believe your own lie.

Regards

Point being that the LFA can be used as an everyday car much moreso than the Huayra. That it combines near truck-like durability with few to none of the reliability issues of traditional European exotics, and it has an interior like that, is somewhat unique in this segment. If you think it's so easy, ask yourself why others haven't done it. What you're missing from the interior/detail department is that where the Pagani excels in materials, the Lexus excels in fit & finish, the oily precise feeling of the switchgear (something you don't find in trucks), and the overall sense of durability. These are details that take considerable time and effort to perfect. I didn't say it's MORE artful or better than the Huayra interior, did I? I'm saying neither interior matches completely the other in all areas. Overall, they can be discussed within the same sentence. The Huayra looks artful, but it just doesn't convey the same sense of solidity nor stringent control of fit & finish.
The fact that you even bring up the CF-on-CF panel gap in the LFA's interior shows a level of ignorance about its interior that is hard to comprehend. Can you tell me why (aside from the undesirable consequences of CF striking CF) the gap is the way it is? Do you honestly think its due to a lack of attention to detail?

 

[Gianclaudio]

Is dued to a design error. If you know it won't look good, why don't you go back to the drawing board and redesign your sketch and avoid something it won't look good? And we're talking about a 100% cosmetic item like a CF trim, not something that has another function.

Also, by your "logic" a Pagani must be a "better" supercar, because people have come away safe after having 200 mph accidents, unlike the LFA who killed their test driver in a crash against a boggo Bimmer on which passengers didn't die. (I'm being sarcastic again, but using your logic it woudl make sense)

What amaze me the most is how you talk about the feeling of the switchgear or controls on the LFA against a Zonda/Huayra. Have you driven the three cars? How do you know the LFA is more usable day to day than a Huayra. Do you own any of these cars?
"don't convey the same sense of solidity" "The overall sense of durability"
Are you basing your arguments on heart hunchs? How do you even know which lever or switchgear feels better, if you haven't used them?

Now I'm really off, this is beyond pathetic.

 

[Guibo]

Is dued to a design error. If you know it won't look good, why don't you go back to the drawing board and redesign your sketch and avoid something it won't look good? And we're talking about a 100% cosmetic item like a CF trim, not something that has another function.

But that CF trim piece is housing something that does have to do with the functionality of the car. Can you tell me what it is?

Also, by your "logic" a Pagani must be a "better" supercar, because people have come away safe after having 200 mph accidents, unlike the LFA who killed their test driver in a crash against a boggo Bimmer on which passengers didn't die. (I'm being sarcastic again, but using your logic it woudl make sense)

I don't recall any of those Bimmer passengers being ~67 years old. How do you know the LFA driver was even conscious at the time of the accident? For all we know, he could have suffered a stroke or heart attack that led to the crash in the first place. Some reports say he wasn't wearing his seatbelt at the time.
That LFA Nurburgring Edition was also one of their early test mules. How do you know the airbag was even active on that car? You are drawing a huge conclusion about the LFA's strength and safety when there are questions raised about the health of the driver in question. Meanwhile, we know that the Nurburgring tore open the Zonda's subframe.

What amaze me the most is how you talk about the feeling of the switchgear or controls on the LFA against a Zonda/Huayra. Have you driven the three cars? How do you know the LFA is more usable day to day than a Huayra. Do you own any of these cars?
"don't convey the same sense of solidity" "The overall sense of durability"
Are you basing your arguments on heart hunchs? How do you even know which lever or switchgear feels better, if you haven't used them?

I've quoted people who actually have driven the LFA. Those quotes weren't pulled out of thin air. Chris Harris has driven both. What is your personal experience in driving the LFA? Oh, that's right. You have none.

 

[Gianclaudio]

I should be bitchslaped, as I promess not to come back, but it's almost imposible to let pass:

I've quoted people who actually have driven the LFA. Those quotes weren't pulled out of thin air. Chris Harris has driven both. What is your personal experience in driving the LFA? Oh, that's right. You have none.

None, that's why, unlike you, I don't come here and mention which car has a better feeling switchgear or which seems to be more solidly built. I'm not the one who makes those kind of claims. It's you

Are your neurones working properly or you just had a bad day?

Same applies to the this:

I don't recall any of those Bimmer passengers being ~67 years old. How do you know the LFA driver was even conscious at the time of the accident? For all we know, he could have suffered a stroke or heart attack that led to the crash in the first place. Some reports say he wasn't wearing his seatbelt at the time.
That LFA Nurburgring Edition was also one of their early test mules. How do you know the airbag was even active on that car? You are drawing a huge conclusion about the LFA's strength and safety when there are questions raised about the health of the driver in question. Meanwhile, we know that the Nurburgring tore open the Zonda's subframe.

What part of "I'm being sarcastic and using your logic" is hard to understand? Do you want me to make a diagram out of it?

Now I'm really off, if I come back, shoot me in the genitals

 

[Guibo]

But does the claim of solid-feeling seem far-fetched? On the one hand, we have a Zonda R that had its subframe ripped open after a handful of laps on the 'Ring. On the other, we have a car that has withstood multiple 24-hr and 4-hr enduros on the Ring. If you can't see that the LFA's foot pedals and hinge assembly at least look more robust, then I don't know what else to say.
You'd have to use sarcasm in the LFA test driver death example, because it just doesn't hold any water. It was a stupid example and you should admit it. There is no sarcasm required to understand that maybe, just maybe, certain components of the Zonda don't hold up as well.

Care to answer the question about what it is that the LFA's CF dash/door components are housing? I suspect you haven't answered because you don't know. You've been given plenty of opportunity...

 

[Giannis]

Let's calm down and aviod stuff like this:

Are your neurones working properly or you just had a bad day?

Ok?

 

[deity]

There's an art in being minimalist and simple. Just because the Pagani's pedals are fancier and artsier, doesn't mean they hold greater aesthetic value. What is that you and K-A want on the sides of Merc's all the time? Clean, simple, and TIMELESS lines. The same can be applied for the LFA. While the Lexus' pedals aren't especially interesting, its quality is blatant and there is a simplicity in its design that the Pagani just tries to over define. In fact, I would imagine an uncomfortable experience with Pagani's pedals.

The same thing can be said about the interior. I HATE the Pagani's interior. It's overly ostentatious (even for a car this price), and is, dare I say, trashy. The Veyron, even, has a much classier interior. It feels as though Pagani's trying too hard. Its akin to covering a car entirely in chrome or in gold. Yes, the quality and the bespoke-ness is there, but is it in good taste? And honestly, look at the Zonda's center console and the buttons for the Climate Control. They look like cheap, plastic, calculator buttons. Those two knobs beside the small screen don't exactly shout absolute luxury to me either. There is a disgusting overuse of carbon fibre- again, pricey and high-quality stuff, but appropriate? No. The LFA uses CF much more appropriately, contrary to the mentality Pagani seems to insist upon. Even the leather doesn't go too well with me on the Pagani. For me, the interior just doesn't look very tasteful.

Have you ever designed an engine from the ground up and realize how complex it is? As opposed to taking one straight from AMG? No you haven't. How about you design and engineer the engine and I'll do all the critically intensive double-double stitching for you?


Important note: Asides from the calculator-like buttons, I'm not saying the Pagani's interior looks CHEAP. I'm just saying it doesn't look very tasteful/classy. And remember guys, my opinion.

 

[Guibo]

Is dued to a design error. If you know it won't look good, why don't you go back to the drawing board and redesign your sketch and avoid something it won't look good? And we're talking about a 100% cosmetic item like a CF trim, not something that has another function.

Wrong. It's no design error. And that piece does have another function related to it.

Bottom left: ventilation air exits the 3 holes in the dash
Top right (other side): air enters the door panel through a grommet

Far left: air then exits on the top side of the door panel

Flickr: Bill Jacomet's stuff tagged with lfa

That grommet requires some thickness and its purpose appears to be two-fold:

• Give some clearance between the CF parts that might otherwise strike each other
• Provide an air-tight seal (no leakage) for the window vent to do its job better

In other words, the gap is not only by design, but it shows another level of detail that is absent in most other cars in which you have to choose between ventilation for your head/body or ventilation to de-mist the windows. In the LFA, you don't have to make that choice. It's not the only car with this detail, but it's clearly a sign that Lexus wanted to make the driving experience a little better than it otherwise might be.

The Veyron has it too and in cars with the carbon-on-carbon wraparound dash, the gap is very noticeable too:
Bugatti Veyron Super Sport - Interior | Wallpaper #73 iPad | 1024x768

 

[Mafalda]

ooopps damn, my mistake : I've read 1,000 units... but is rumored @ just 100 units

100 units @ $ 750,000 seems much more realistic

 

[Levi68]

I think the discussion went lost. It was not a question about what is more artisitic or of better quality. It was that both Lexus and Pagani paid all attention to details, compared to all other mass and even exotic car producers. Next to them comes the MP4-12C, Ron Denis also has the quality of Horacio Pagani, just in a different style and aim. I would even say that all of them were built with passion, even the "cold" McLaren. Now I am not saying Aston Martin or Ferrari lack passion, like it is the case of Lamborghini, but they were built with production in mind. The LFA and Pagani are more about the ultimate dream. The McLaren is just in between, trying to offer the most exclusivity for "all". Attention to detail means that every part is designed with a very specific thought in mind.