Lexus ads are driving me up a wall!!!!

[Michael]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

And BMWFREAK, no matter how similar Audi and VW might be, they're distancing themselves as much as possible now that Audi competes aggressively with MB/BMW while VW attempts mid-level luxury to economical cars. The Phaeton's future is still in question.

I would argue that this assertion may be true.

Saying Toyota and Lexus is the same thing is a touchy thing to say indeed. And it definitely isn't true. The new generations of Lexus cars are quite different from Toyota cars in the sense of design in both the exterior and interior. However... I do agree, some parts of these Lexus are straight of a Toyota's parts bin.

What? "...parts of these Lexus are straight of a Toyota's parts bin." Yes you are right, but the same goes for Audi. Why don't you, and everyone else, take a look at the buttons in the lamborghini Gallardo and the Audi's and the VW's and tell me if they don't look the same. For God's sake, of course Toyota and Lexus share parts but so do Audi and VW. However, I am sure Audi and VW go about in a more intelligent manor, for example it may seem like the same 1.8t engine but it may differ in 10hp or something to that effect. But if someone is going to tell me that the new 2.0t in the GTi and the 2.0t in the Audi A4 are not the same then there is something differently wrong here.

Either way, it is only wise for companies to share some if not many parts for the sake of production cost and overall being cost-effective.

 

[Yperion]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Can someone please tell me who is the Lexus CEO?Head designer? Motorsport manager?

For example Audi's CEO is Martin Winterkorn, head designer is Walter Da Silva , Motorsport director is Dr. Ulrich.

So before saying that i 'm wrong please check your facts. BTW the SA CEO was just an example so Snake please read my posts more carefully next time.

Audi shares parts with VW that's true but it also shares many parts with BMW, Mercedes and other companies. Gearboxes from ZF , headlights from Hella, screen wipers from Valeo, injection systems from Siemens, ABS from Bosch ect.

Lexus doesn't only share parts with Toyota, they have the same managers , designers , engineers , quality test departments ect. Everything about Lexus is the same with Toyota underneath.
Of course Lexus makes better and upmarket products but that doesn't change the fact that they share the same DNA.

 

[Michael]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Lexus doesn't only share parts with Toyota, they have the same managers , designers , engineers , quality test departments ect. Everything about Lexus is the same with Toyota underneath.
Of course Lexus makes better and upmarket products but that doesn't change the fact that they share the same DNA.

Yannis I understand your rational for the sharing of parts between all manufactuers, but hella will make specific parts of specific manufactuers, and wind shield wipers aren't exactly an engineering upheaval that BMW or MB have taken up on their own, so that is pretty standard on all cars now. However, I will continue to say that VW and Audi share many many parts.

Lexus is a bit different, whether Lexus shares the same president with Toyota shouldn't make a difference. I think the difference comes on how the products differ. At one time a Lexus looked identical to a Toyota, but as time has passed one can see that Lexus is really trying to deviate away from using the same parts. I think, however, they still remain with the whole chassis issue, which is, they use the same chassis and interchange them between Toyota and Lexus, which personally is not that big of a deal to me because I am pretty sure that Audi and VW do the same in some way or form. I don't car if one chassis is aluminum and the other isn't. If they share the same design then in a way they are the same.

Come on guys, stop trying to make it seem like Audi is only tied financially to VW and the only part they share is bolts. They share more than that, and I really think it would be really unfair.

 

[Yperion]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

I 'm not saying that Toyota cars are the same with Lexus cars but i 'm saying that they have the same people behind them and that makes them have a much closer reliationship than Audi and VW for example have.

I have spend much time talking about Lexus, enough said.

 

[Michael]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

I 'm not saying that Toyota cars are the same with Lexus cars but i 'm saying that they have the same people behind them and that makes them have a much closer reliationship than Audi and VW for example have.

I have spend much time talking about Lexus, enough said.

Well you may buy one soon if you keep on talking about it

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

It truly drives me INSANE when Lexus tries to pass off something the Germans had first as something INNOVATIVE and of their own. It's so pathetic.

That said, It would make absolutely no sense for Lexus to have their own R&D division. Toyota has enough cash to splurge on all sorts of research, clearly to the benefit of Lexus. Also, It's so obvious theres a lot of sharing of engineering knoweldge across VW, Audi and Bentley.

The parts sharing between the Lexus and Toyota is becoming less and less obvious with every new Lexus launched. And again, parth sharing in the VW group is quite obvious to say the least.

Also, contrary to popular belief, Lexus now has its own state of the art billion dollar design studios.

FINALLY, why bother with two presidents etc. when Toyota has clearly proven they operate brilliantly with only one. They did not become the richest car company (BY A HUGE MARGIN) by accident.

 

[Michael]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Mr. Mercedes you have truly brought a lot to the table with your reply. I must, however, contend some of your statements.

It truly drives me INSANE when Lexus tries to pass off something the Germans had first as something INNOVATIVE and of their own. It's so pathetic.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. What... should Lexus just sit back and ignore what innovations are being presented in the market? There are so many things that MB and BMW share, and either one of them came out with it before the other. For example, Bosch actually develops, if I am not mistaken, the program for the traction control which is found on MB, BMW, and Audi. However, MB, BMW, and Audi market it with different names and to the ones that don't know, make them thinks that the idea was developed by Audi or BMW, or MB, but not all at the same time. So customers at times have to listen to the Rhetoric from BMW, for example, in saying that their DSC is the best etc. when it is the same that is found, or at least extremely similiar.

I think it is good that Lexus is innovating many themselves by presenting many things the germans developed. I don't see a problem with that. If Boeing is going to make an economical aircraft such as the Boeing 787 why shouldn't Airbus. Heck! They are making it to compete with it. One can argue, well Boeing came out with it first, Airbus is stealing their idea. Come on!

I know, however, that there is a distinction between copying direct ideas and overal principal ideas. For example, someone can argue, " well everyone is copying Henry Ford's manufacturing line principle", or "heck look at that! MB developed the first car, but everyone else copied them." I think it would be rather absurd to argue such matters. So with that said, take into consideration that is is probably better for Lexus to introduce Xenon headlamps a few years after they came out in germany; adaptice headlights a few months after they came out;etc. just because it keeps them going.

Also, It's so obvious theres a lot of sharing of engineering knoweldge across VW, Audi and Bentley.

You are absolutely right my friend. Thank you for pointing out something that I have been trying to say this whole entire time.

The parts sharing between the Lexus and Toyota is becoming less and less obvious with every new Lexus launched. And again, parth sharing in the VW group is quite obvious to say the least.

Very true. You can clearly see distinctions in the Lexus lineup, and you can finally say--FINALLY!

FINALLY, why bother with two presidents etc. when Toyota has clearly proven they operate brilliantly with only one. They did not become the richest car company (BY A HUGE MARGIN) by accident.

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Mr. M]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Come think, you all are quite right... I just read through the A8 brochure, and I realised that:

1) The key used for the A8 is exactly same as the Phaeton, just switch the logo (also, in the A8 they used a metal logo, while it is just a coloured stick-on)

2) The trunk servo closer button is exactly the same.

3) The logos used in the interior to mark, for example, adjustments for brightness of the instruments, are exactly the same in the Phaeton.

4) The CD changer is the same as well.

I can point out many similarities between the A8 and the Phaeton. Not to mention the Flying Spur... I've sat and been driven in it before, and I could recognise many similarities.

Amusing.

 

[Snake Vargas]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Hmm, thanks, James. That's something that I couldn't find out myself. So hey, VAG cars, even at the top of the range, share components. So what? Does it make any of them less impressive than they are? Certainly not, to my mind. Similarly, so what if Toyotas and Lexuses share some switchgear or whatever? Well, unless your concept of a good car depends on the source of the switchgear.

As for the people working for the companies, then who cares, too? I don't care about who did it, I care about the final result - the car. Yannis, I did read your post - example or not, you intimated that since there was only a SA president for Toyota (and not a separate Lexus president) then that was then to be taken across the board, and extending upwards.

Really, I don't have a clue which people are in these positions at Lexus, I don't care. It doesn't make much difference to me.

---

Oh yeah, let's not talk about swivelling headlights, either. IIRC, Citroen was first with that idea, a decades ago. I'm cool if Lexus, BMW or Mercedes want to promote an innovation - it's not like they said they were the inventors as such; or that they were the first; and perhaps if they do, then IMO all car companies are as guilty as each other.

Just ignore the advertising and be assured that, as car enthusiasts, we know enough to make up our own minds.

 

[Michael]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Hmm, thanks, James. That's something that I couldn't find out myself. So hey, VAG cars, even at the top of the range, share components. So what? Does it make any of them less impressive than they are? Certainly not, to my mind. Similarly, so what if Toyotas and Lexuses share some switchgear or whatever? Well, unless your concept of a good car depends on the source of the switchgear.

Very true. I totally forgot that the keys in VW and Audi and even Bentley are the same! Come on

My only problem here is people that have this idea, or imply that Audi is very very very different and that it is only financially 'hooked' to VW. I don't care, I would still buy an Audi, but just deal with the fact that VW and Audi share an immense amount of parts. As a matter of fact the Gallardo and the R8 must share many parts as well. So whats' the big deal? Nothing. Just the people that can't deal or put up with the notion that VW has a lot to do with Audi.

Oh yeah, let's not talk about swivelling headlights, either. IIRC, Citroen was first with that idea, a decades ago. I'm cool if Lexus, BMW or Mercedes want to promote an innovation - it's not like they said they were the inventors as such; or that they were the first; and perhaps if they do, then IMO all car companies are as guilty as each other.

Truly. The one thing that is funny is where BMW will take a techonology that was developed by MB and make it seem like it is a BMW innovation by throwing in their own spin into it. This goes hand in hand and is applied to every manufacturer included but not limited to Audi, MB, Ferrari, etc.

Just ignore the advertising and be assured that, as car enthusiasts, we know enough to make up our own minds.

Actually ignorance plays a role in buying cars more times then not. I am sure rappers and others buy Benz and only want Benz because of the image that has been instilled in their minds for many many years now. This idea is that they think that MB is superior in everything when compared to Audi and BMW and others. This is just pure ignorance.

Another ignorance factor is the whole part of marketting which I mentioned in the quote before this one. This is where a company like MB will promote something that has already been out and is old as a new object. So, people think "oh wow MB is a genius! I want one!". Pure ignorance

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Mr. Mercedes you have truly brought a lot to the table with your reply. I must, however, contend some of your statements.



I don't think there is anything wrong with that. What... should Lexus just sit back and ignore what innovations are being presented in the market? There are so many things that MB and BMW share, and either one of them came out with it before the other. For example, Bosch actually develops, if I am not mistaken, the program for the traction control which is found on MB, BMW, and Audi. However, MB, BMW, and Audi market it with different names and to the ones that don't know, make them thinks that the idea was developed by Audi or BMW, or MB, but not all at the same time. So customers at times have to listen to the Rhetoric from BMW, for example, in saying that their DSC is the best etc. when it is the same that is found, or at least extremely similiar.

I think it is good that Lexus is innovating many themselves by presenting many things the germans developed. I don't see a problem with that. If Boeing is going to make an economical aircraft such as the Boeing 787 why shouldn't Airbus. Heck! They are making it to compete with it. One can argue, well Boeing came out with it first, Airbus is stealing their idea. Come on!

I know, however, that there is a distinction between copying direct ideas and overal principal ideas. For example, someone can argue, " well everyone is copying Henry Ford's manufacturing line principle", or "heck look at that! MB developed the first car, but everyone else copied them." I think it would be rather absurd to argue such matters. So with that said, take into consideration that is is probably better for Lexus to introduce Xenon headlamps a few years after they came out in germany; adaptice headlights a few months after they came out;etc. just because it keeps them going.

Nice posts BMWFREAK and Snake. Totally agree with you. And Mirage, thanks for pointing out some of the sharing between the 2. For sure the parts sharing in the VAG extends very far. For goodness sakes, the last TT sat on a VW golf platform and arguably was a lesser car for it.

BMWFREAK, I have no problem with Lexus innovating etc. What I find annoying is when they clearly have copied/adopted an innovation but try to pass it off as their own doing, and as being the first manufacturer to even have the innovation. That to me is LAME and missleading. Its a bit like Hyundai claiming they invented the airbag simply becuase its located differently to where MB, the inventor of this technology, places them in the vehicle.

Im totally with you Snake when you say who really cares about the companies structure, as long as the products are sufficiently different and special.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Can I ask a question just to give people here something to think about.. it's a bit simplified but still relevant.
All this talk of Lexus being a luxo-Toyota, is that not the same as say an RS4 being a hotted-up A4? I mean, Lexus is Toyota's luxury division, while RS is Audi's performance division. (We can swap the RS4/A4 example with M5/5er or E63/Eclass or what have you). .. But isn't the concept the same ? Ofcourse the end results differ considerable because you can tell an RS4 is a hotted-up A4 whereas you can't say from appearances that the Lexus GS is a luxo-Camry.

But same principles or not ?

--

BMWFREAK, I have no problem with Lexus innovating etc. What I find annoying is when they clearly have copied/adopted an innovation but try to pass it off as their own doing, and as being the first manufacturer to even have the innovation. That to me is LAME and missleading. Its a bit like Hyundai claiming they invented the airbag simply becuase its located differently to where MB, the inventor of this technology, places them in the vehicle.

It's Marketing. ... I also used to get peeved off when Lexus would imply such a claim (because they don't actually say they invented it, but rather imply it via ads) but you just have to understand that rivalry is intense and that it's not just about promoting your own brand, but also nullifying any advantages/features your competitors have over you, especially in the premium car segment.
It's more important to do this in the premium car market because buyers aren't overly concerned about pricing, but rather what features/options they would like to have. If you were buying a Camry or something, then price might be more of an influencing factor, but the luxury segment very rarely focuses on price as a competitive advantage.

Yes it's frustrating, and yes it is definately misleading, but in the end it comes back to 'caveat emptor’ (Latin for Buyer beware). Marketing's all about making up a story/image, fluffing up your good points and trying as best you can to hide your bad points.
Now whenever I see an ad where one manufacturer is claiming innovation over a certain technology and I know that tech' has already been introduced by another manufacturer, .. well, I just laugh a little.

Again, it's Marketing, ... and no one said marketing had to be fair or honest. (I know, I'm cold hearted aren't I )

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

It's Marketing. ... I also used to get peeved off when Lexus would imply such a claim (because they don't actually say they invented it, but rather imply it via ads) but you just have to understand that rivalry is intense and that it's not just about promoting your own brand, but also nullifying any advantages/features your competitors have over you, especially in the premium car segment.
It's more important to do this in the premium car market because buyers are overly concerned about pricing, but rather what features/options they would like to have. If you were buying a Camry or something, then price might be more of an influencing factor, but the luxury segment very rarely focuses on price as a competitive advantage.

Yes it's frustrating, and yes it is definately midleading, but in the end it comes back to 'caveat emptor’ (Latin for Buyer Beware). Marketing's all about a making up a story, fluffing up your good points and trying as best you can to hide your bad points. Now whenever I see an ad where one manufacturer is claiming innovation over a certain technology and I know that tech' has already been introduced by another manufacturer, .. well, I just laugh a little.

Again, it's Marketing, ... and no one said marketing had to be fair or honest. (I know, I'm cold hearted aren't I )

Very true BeemerBoi, and it is a marketing reality! But from the advertising I've seen each of the Germans have displayed restraint and executed respect for the inovations of the others in press material and advertising, whereas Lexus has often done the complete opposite. You don't see AUDI and BMW claiming they were the first with radar guided cruise control. Lexus on the other hand are likely to even claim they invented the radar. lol

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Very true BeemerBoi, and it is a marketing reality! But from the advertising I've seen each of the Germans have displayed restraint and executed respect for the inovations of the others in press material and advertising, whereas Lexus has often done the complete opposite. You don't see AUDI and BMW claiming they were the first with radar guided cruise control. Lexus on the other hand are likely to even claim they invented the radar. lol

Hahaha.. yeh, you're probably right.. but I guess that's just how Lexus do it.

You have to remember, BMW, Audi and MB are all about innovation. Ofcourse MB has been long known for innovation.. I mean come on, they invented the car (but also other important safety innovations), Audi's slogan "Vorsprung Durch Technik" is about technology and continual innovation, and BMW prides itself on innovative technologies as well as design (as seen by the E65 7er which was a technological tour-de-force as well as innovative design).

So the thing is, MB, Audi and BMW have already spent large amounts of marketing dollars establishing that innovative image (which is further added by Country of Origin associations), whereas on the other hand, Lexus is only beginning to create an 'innovative' image, and what better way to do that than to simply piggy-back on the Germans' new technology.

But don't think that Lexus is not technologically innovative company, I mean, they (referring to Lexus/Toyota) are years ahead of the German's in Hybrid engine technology. Now many of the Lexus nay-sayers will say "well that's just one innovation that they've made'. It aint about the number of innovations, it's about the importance/significance of the innovation, and there's no doubt that hybrid engines are very important to the future of the motor industry.


... and also, just on a side note, you can be as innovative, creative, and daring as you want, but if you're not getting the sales, profits and market share you're not doing well. Toyota/Lexus management and internal processes and culture is unbelievably effective and successful.

 

[YoungWarrior]

Re: Lexus ad's are driving me up a wall!!!!

lol american automotive adverts are some of the most cheesy things Ive ever seen on T.V. And theyre all so similiar, and complete bullshit.

 

[Michael]

Re: Lexus ad's are driving me up a wall!!!!

Mr. Mercedes thanks for responding. I must say though that I do not recollect Lexus every "claiming" to have invented something. However, you do see them speak about it as if it is implied that they had something to do with it. If you agree with the previous statement then you have completely overlooked that BMW and Audi do the same. Bosh created the traction control system period. BMW went ahead and called id Dynamic Stability Control (DSC). They would talk about DSC as if it was their creation and how much it made a difference in BMW's than in other cars. To top it off they would go against volvo's and Audi's, in their own marketting videos to attempt to debunk the traction control on these cars. Audi has done the same and so have others.

My point here is that marketing and capital make a big difference. Plastic surgery is done my many different doctors. You can't go to the original plastic surgeon because he may not be alive anymore or in any case there are better plastic sergeons out there. So, even though a car company may be behind something doesn't necessarily mean that another car company cannot make it better.

 

[Matt]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Which memebers?

Either way, Matt you are a cool guy and you have a right to dislike Lexus' ads...hey! you came to the right place of the forum to complain. If you read closely--and all members should do this-- you will notice that this section is under Exhaust Pipe which truly entitles a member to just 'blow up' and say what he wants to...to a certain extent. However, you will see many members come here and reason with you or simply share their opinions.

yea your right. Hey a voice of reason is good, its better than being the voice of insanity which is the one i play!

 

[Matt]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

Very true BeemerBoi, and it is a marketing reality! But from the advertising I've seen each of the Germans have displayed restraint and executed respect for the inovations of the others in press material and advertising, whereas Lexus has often done the complete opposite. You don't see AUDI and BMW claiming they were the first with radar guided cruise control. Lexus on the other hand are likely to even claim they invented the radar. lol

haha thats true lol. As far as I can tell or have seen the German auto makers dont attempt to take the Intellectual property of their competitors by marketing each others innovations as their own. Lexus doesnt seem to understand the concept of IP, which is why their adds bug the hell out of me. Interesting discussion..

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Re: Lexus ad's are driving me up a wall!!!!

Mr. Mercedes thanks for responding. I must say though that I do not recollect Lexus every "claiming" to have invented something. However, you do see them speak about it as if it is implied that they had something to do with it. If you agree with the previous statement then you have completely overlooked that BMW and Audi do the same. Bosh created the traction control system period. BMW went ahead and called id Dynamic Stability Control (DSC). They would talk about DSC as if it was their creation and how much it made a difference in BMW's than in other cars. To top it off they would go against volvo's and Audi's, in their own marketting videos to attempt to debunk the traction control on these cars. Audi has done the same and so have others.

My point here is that marketing and capital make a big difference. Plastic surgery is done my many different doctors. You can't go to the original plastic surgeon because he may not be alive anymore or in any case there are better plastic sergeons out there. So, even though a car company may be behind something doesn't necessarily mean that another car company cannot make it better.

I had no idea BMW actually went after Audi and Volvo in their advertising of DSC. At least they weren't stupid enough to go after Benz. If I recollect correctly Bosch worked closely with MB to create traction control, and its first debuted on the CL right?

Still, In Australia at least, the Germans have not tried to discredit each other in their marketing, which is more than can be said for Lexus. This is not to say Lexus is not an innovative company, because the new LS demonstrates clearly they are are. Their marketing should focus on what innovations they truly did bring to the table.

You may not be able to go to the first plastic surgeon, but certainly you wouldnt go to a quack claiming he invented plastic surgery right?

 

[cawimmer430]

Re: Lexus adds are driving me up a wall!!!!

"Lexus" originates from the German word "Luxus" which means luxury. When even a company's name mimics a German word what do you expect really?

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I think car ads in general are becoming overly difficult to understand. I prefer simple "to the point" ads, like those from Volkswagen, and they even have humor in it. VW also makes funny and effective television ads IMO.