Kings Battle - S-class, LS, 7-series, A8 and XJ

[Beemer B773ER]

OMG. Are you serious? That VW is so ugly, it hurts my eyes. How can you compare it to the beauty A4, and say it looks almost as good!?

It's called personal taste. I'm being totally honest too, at the present moment, I think the new Passat is more visually appealing than the A4. If you're talking about the A4 with the S-line, well that's a different story, but VW Passat in my eyes looks better than the A4.

But enough about this A4 v Passat talk.... not even part of the topic.

-

The 7er may not be the best now.. but at the time of its release it was. It's understandable that the 7er may not have the looks to appeal to everyone, but that's exactly what BMW's about. They ain't here to be conservative and be all things to all people. They have a clear identity.. a clear culture..and a well-defined set of values which every car sticks to.
Some may not like the interior design either because it's too "cold" and not overly inviting... but again, it's part of BMW's new identity. Before BMW had a very driver-orientated interior layout.. but that focus has now advanced into the I-Drive concept which has been adopted across many cars now (and that cannot be argued because that's a simply fact).
The daring designs of BMW started with the 7er...and again, a whole host of cars have now adopted that sharp lines and curvacious sheet metal look too, and one of these cars has been the new S. The interior layout too. BMW introduce the idea of a central-knob to control basic interior functions, and soon enough it's seen in the new S and A8. Yes the I-Drive may not be the best to operate out of the 3, but the key point is BMW pioneered it. And for those who are gonna say 'well, MB had COMMAND' before I-drive.. remember, the concept of I-Drive was first seen in the Z9 Concept of Sept. 1999.
Also, the placement of the screen. Most cars, even to this day have the screen in the middle of the centre console. BMW, again with the introduction of the Z9 in 1999 showed where screen should be (that is, at the same height as the instrument panel)....and what do we see now ? Well, we got the S-class doing a near copy of the 7er's interior layout, and also, the A8 has the screen at a near identical height.

There's no denying all these points... because they are simple facts. BMW introduced these features and ideas to the motoring world with the 7er.. and they coped an earful of crap from journalists n MB-Audi fanboys alike.. but ironically, the same features and ideas popped up in the A8 and new S.
Is it a compliment for BMW ? Yes, indeed.....!
So is it fair for MB-Audi fanboys to play down the importance and success of the 7er? IMO.. NO. It did a great deal for the premium car market and the car industry as a whole. It won a swag of accolades relating to technological features as well as being the first in the new breed of BMW cars to contribute to the record sales success of BMW AG.

It's fair if you MB-Audi fans don't like how the 7er looks and so on... but it's plain childish and immature to talk it down because it's not good enough to be compared to an S-class or A8. It can hold its own against its German rivals.. and when it was introduced, it was ahead of its competition in terms of what it offered.

 

[bum-man]

It's understandable that the 7er may not have the looks to appeal to everyone, but that's exactly what BMW's about. They ain't here to be conservative and be all things to all people. They have a clear identity.. a clear culture..and a well-defined set of values which every car sticks to.

Funny, I thought the E65 f/l was the ultimate statement in conforming to the masses. So w/e.

 

[Zafiro]

OMG. Are you serious? That VW is so ugly, it hurts my eyes. How can you compare it to the beauty A4, and say it looks almost as good!?

I didnt say it looks almost as good, I said the car is just as good as a A4 but it has nothing to do with the look.

 

[Matt]

badge snobbery. Let see what happens as the audi image keeps growing. We already know that audi's are a favourite of young teens in america and as they get older things will only get better.

I thought this was kind of a funny statement from a dealers perspective. Osna was simply saying that he prefers the A8 because dealers have more trouble allocating them causing the price of these models to drop and making them easily haggled for. I also found it funny that you would bring up teenagers. It doesnt matter what teenagers think, they arent the ones capable of purchasing these cars and anyway they only like them because the b6 A4 is priced very low and easily "riced out". Its not that they wouldnt prefer a 3 series to an A4 but rather only have the means of buying an A4. I know, Im in highschool (unfortunately).

 

[Matt]

Funny, I thought the E65 f/l was the ultimate statement in conforming to the masses. So w/e.

It certainly did sell! Bimmerboi wasnt saying that BMW is purposely trying to make cars that only appeal to some people. Their sole goal is to sell cars and if they can make a somewhat controversial package that would sell better than a bland package (such as the A8, which sells less then a 1/4 of the 7er in the U.S) then why not? The FL never lost any BMW values however it did prove to keep a controversial package that is still disliked by some but liked by many, which is why it created such a sales boost for the car. It seems to me that MB fans and Audi fans feel that BMW can never make a good car. First its too "controversial" and "different" then with the face lift its a "sell out"... funny indeed.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Funny, I thought the E65 f/l was the ultimate statement in conforming to the masses. So w/e.

Another example of how all those fans here who can't seem to accept BMW's overall philosohpy decided to knit-pick at one small aspect of the overall picture. Instead of trying to grasp the overall message im trying to convey, you had to knit-pick at some small detail with a sarcastic comment (especially by saing 'So w/e'). What value does that provide to this thread...and what does it speak of your maturity. Yeh, i know u'll turn around and say 'what gives u the right to question my maturity'.. but have a read of ur comment and till me how it was constructive.

The 7er is an integral part of BMW's image. It may not draw in the sales of the 3er and 5er.. but it is more a brand image promoter than a volume seller. I just explained the importance of the E65 7er, and in true MB-fan-biased fashion, there is a useless comment which ignores and downplays all the important aspects of the E65 7er and picks on one aspect of the 7er.
Open your eyes...open your mind and think about the message that is being conveyed rather than writing a useless comment about a small aspect. If you disagree, then write a quality post with reasons for your opinion. It's very frustrating when writing a lengthy post expressing a variety of ideas and personal opinions (with reasonings)..and then have some fanboy-biased comment like that disregarding everything.

As for the 7er's facelift. Well, it's not as though BMW did a total 180 back-flip. With the facelift came enhancements to the front of the car. The kidney-grilles become more rounded, the front lights changed but still maintained the tradition of twin-circular lights as well as the eyebrow. I sure don't see any back-flip on BMW's part because they were heavily criticised for that eyebrow and they still kept it even though many spy pic pundits were saying the eyebrows would go on the facelift.
Now tot he rear of the car... what conformity is there. Yes it may be a little toned down..but BMW have not deserted their well-defined principles. The big butt is still there, and BMW has stayed true to its history by implementing the 'L-shaped' rear lights (although rotated in this case). I wouldnt call it conformity at all... just a different look to the car. The pre-facelift was design in such a way to herald the new design direction of BMW vehicles. The facelift 7er was geared more towards mixing elegance and sportiness..and the elegance was achieved with some rounding of the styling to add more curves. The bold styling was still there, and there's no denying that.. especially when it came to the treatment given to the rear of the car.
So, in my honest opinion, there was little sense of conformity or back-flip when it came to the 7er's design. It still retained the bold styling of the pre-facelift 7er...but just in a different way.
Also, the interior...BMW was criticised for their interior when the E65 7er was unveiled...and hardly anything has changed in the interior of the when the faclifted 7er came out.

Conformity.... in my opinion, I don't think so. But as I said.. my opinion.

 

[LaArtist]

on this board we have more BMW members than MB.. and the audi dudes are alot less.. but when a car from BMW wins a poll for example the M5..then you can understand that the design and everything about that car is appriciated by the community.. or most of us..
and on the other hand you have the 7er wich i think never have won a poll on this forum either against the old or the new S class..
now you can say that the 7er is a part of the BMW philosphy.. but its a philosophy that in the 7ers case isnt appriciated by most..

PS
and then you bmw fans throw this statement in our face:
this 7er is the best selling 7er ever..
who the hell cares..when the pervious 7ers werent even a hot seller..
its like saying i came third in a 3 man race..
twisting words to please once interest thats what i call it..

 

[Zafiro]

on this board we have more BMW members than MB.. and the audi dudes are alot less.. but when a car from BMW wins a poll for example the M5..then you can understand that the design and everything about that car is appriciated by the community.. or most of us..

Im pretty sure many of the voters here vote becuase its a M5 and what its capable of.
So I doubt everyone vote on the M5 based on look only.

 

[LaArtist]

now if you read my post again..i said that ppl vote for the car cause they appricate the design and everything ( techs engine the domination of the segement and so on) about the car..
now i have voted for the M5 and other bimmers often against MB cars to..
but this one doesent klick with me.. and my theory is that ..this might be the case for most members not voting for this car..
even as a new modell it didnt win any polls against the Aged W220 that should tell you something.. especially when we have more BMW fans here than others.. and the audi fans often tend to appriciate BMW´s philosophy..

PS
And once again there is nothing wrong with not being a more popular car than the S class..its a pretty hard task cause it is what MB does best..
But to explain it with excuses like ppl dont understand the philosphy is to me plain BS..

the same situation is with the 3er and C class.. i like the C class..hell i even have one.. but still i belive that the 3er is better and i understand why its so sucessfull.. and the most i can do is to hope that the C class could catch the 3er next time around..and if it doesent.. well then thats it..
i still might prefere the C ..but i wont say to those who vote or buy the 3er that they are wrong and dont understand the philosphy of MB..

MB´s philosphy doesent match with 3er and C class segment as good as bmw´s ..
and the case is reverse for BMW in this segment..

but then again both brands try to cover all segments the best they can.. and i say KUDOS for that..

 

[Beemer B773ER]

on this board we have more BMW members than MB.. and the audi dudes are alot less.. but when a car from BMW wins a poll for example the M5..then you can understand that the design and everything about that car is appriciated by the community.. or most of us..

Funny, I thought the E65 f/l was the ultimate statement in conforming to the masses. So w/e.

Two MB fans directly contradicting each other. The E65 7er (both pre and post facelift) were never meant to conform to the wider community. It is unique, just as the BMW company is unique. There's a reason why the 7er never had and never will win a poll when it comes to design, because it's not trying to be all things to all people. Simple. As for tech', well, im sure most people on this forum haven't a clue what the difference is between the technology availabe between the top 3 makes. If one brand invents something, the others are quick to adopt to negate that competitive advantage, so im sure hardly anyone votes on technology in the respective cars.
Votes come down to brand-preference and design (with engine becoming a factor is one of the cars is lagging in engine/performance), so to talk about the 7er not winning a poll, another reason why it doesnt win a poll is because most vote on looks alone, and it's no secret that some BMW fans don't like the 7er's looks too...but that shows how BMW is still staying true to what the 7er was when the E65 was released.

even as a new modell it didnt win any polls against the Aged W220 that should tell you something..

Seems like you're solely focusing on GCF polls. The sales figures of the 7er compared to the W220 paint a different picture. Yes, it was because the W220 S-class was soon to be replaced, but im simply stating the superior sales success of the 7er to negate your point that the 7er won no polls against the W220 S-class.

But to explain it with excuses like ppl dont understand the philosphy is to me plain BS..

Why do you say that is a BS reason ?
Most people here think BMW's philosophy is simply 'Sheer Driving Pleasure' and 'The Ultimate Driving Machine'. That's not even half of it. Ask any BMW fan, such as Eni' or Matt or Tycoon...and you'll understand that BMW is more than simply driving dynamics. I've explained the values that guide the development of BMW cars and BMW management decisions, so I'm not going to repeat myself.
But as I asked, why do you think that reason is BS?

Im very sure that most members here do not have a FULL grasp of BMW philosophy and values (even some BMW fans don't), and that is why I believe that my point about people not understanding the soul and essence of BMW is a key reason why they refuse to accept some of their cars (such as the 7er).

 

[LaArtist]

now you play ball your way and i play it my way.. im just saying that i wont say to those who vote or buy other cars than the 7er that they dont understand the philosphy..
i personally dont understand it..the car is wierd from the start.. and the facelift to me is a desparate attempt to tone down the wierd factor..

the only good thing the 7er has done for BMW imo is the start of a new era wich has given bmw an image of being a very avantgarde brand.. other than that the car in it self is a wierdo..
....
now the new S also has some design features that are somewhat wierd at the start..but things have set in realativly fast and ppl like it alot.. but the 7er is a diffrent animal.. imo design wise they got it wrong with this car..
but by no means is it a bad car.. this is the highest class of sedans.. and these 3 are the best of what 3 of world best brands have to offer..
in other words a 7er allthough the wierdest and not the best car in this group is still better in everyway than 90% of all cars on sale today..

 

[Imhotep Evil]

the only good thing the 7er has done for BMW imo is the start of a new era wich has given bmw an image of being a very avantgarde brand.. other than that the car in it self is a wierdo..

How about/repost:

1. This is, by far, the best selling 7er of all times.(=bigest revenues and profits)

2. It was to only 7er/competitor to surpass the S klasse as far as sales go.

3. It is also the most influential car BMW has made since the 2002/3er
in several ways (such as interior and exterior design, IDrive system etcetera).

4. Whereas the 7er would follow behind the S klasse (think ABS and such), now for a while it lead the pack.

5. No matter how much the biased/blinded Merc fans try to spin it about the W221 interior DNA/design theme, the simple fact is that IT'S A COPY of the E65 7 series, and it is the greatest proof of the (temporary) Leadership of the E65.

 

[YoungWarrior]

Passat 2.0 (I think it has 150hp), A4 2.0T and 1.8 (I dont remember if it was a 1.8T or not)
I also think Golf is just as good and fun as a A3. I rather take a R32 over a A3 3.2

Well a golf is near enough a A3. Same chassis.

What year was the passat and audi as the new ones drive very differently, especially if the audi had quattro. FWD audi's are a bit lacking though. Id never buy one unless it was a A3 or TT.

 

[Zafiro]

Well a golf is near enough a A3. Same chassis.

What year was the passat and audi as the new ones drive very differently, especially if the audi had quattro. FWD audi's are a bit lacking though. Id never buy one unless it was a A3 or TT.

the passat is a 2006 and A4 was the facelifted version and the 1.8 the old version.

 

[hannaz]

Only S-class

My choice is defenetly the best car in the world, the S-class. Its the king of kings.