Keep or replace the Volvo S60

[sanpt7777]

Hey guys. Do you have first hand experience on the following cars? What's your opinion?

Manual E36
Manual E46
Manual W202
Manual W203
Manual or Geartronic FWD S60 P2, especially the T5
Manual B5 A4 quattro




You can skip the following text and just tell me your opinion on any of those cars (or all) or keep reading if you want.

I see a lot of things online but I don't know if I would trust the internet all the time. Everyone seems to defend the cars they own and I only find opinions on brand specific forums, where the other cars get bashed. I know you guys here, so your opinion is different.

I have first hand experience with the Volvo:

Cons
-It has poor fuel economy.
-Poor turning radius, so bad it makes me laugh instead of angry.
-Very bad resale value and very hard to get rid of once you want to sell it (where I live at least).

Pros
-Deliciously invisible (design).
-I's never underpowered.
-It has a numb but precise steering.
-Silent interior.
-Visibility is great and you have a nice low seating position.
-Excellent build quality. Every single plastic is soft touch.
-Amazing sound system.
-Reliable.
-Confident handling.
-GT is always in the right gear. Smooth shifts.
-Low wide stance.


I just saw a thread where a guy asked S60 2.5T vs 325i and they didn't had much nice things to say about the S60. Here's a quote:
"The Volvo is FWD, so it's crap from the beginning". I think having a good suspension setup makes more of a difference than just FWD vs RWD. Am I missing out not owning a RWD or AWD?

I like FWD and I think Volvo is far from crap, but I'm young and inexperienced. How does the Volvo compare to the other cars? I don't keep cars stock so if you have experience with aftermarket suspension or what not, all the better.

 

[Enrico]

I have experience with all of that car.
My actual girlfriend has a V70 P2 D5 FWD automatic.
Her dad owned:
V70 P1 2.5tdi and reached 300.000kms with no problem
V70 P2 2.4D manual 360.000kms without problems, and a crash killed it
now has this v70 with my girl usually drives, with 220.000kms.
A part from regular maintenance, he changed only a stuck thermostat.

As you pointed out, the volvo has a very bad turning circle, has an horrible navigation system, and it's thirsty, but it's a good car overall, very comfy seats, has a lot of space, it's quite inside, and has a very good build quality.
If i have to spend my money i will buy an e46, because i drove it and i love it, indeed the e46 335i coupé it's one of my favourite car. i like her RWD feeling, and the longitudinal engine (my girl drove my passat, and she also say that handle better than her volvo, with a light and precise steering).
If i'm not wrong the a4 b5, has the same floorpan than my passat, and i can say that is good, also with the torsion beam at the rear.
If you choose the 1.8T, check a lot the services, because it's know for developing oil sludge problems.

 

[Giannis]

-Visibility is great and you have a nice low seating position.

Visibility is borderline acceptable and you seat way too high. At least that's how I feel with the driver's seat at the lowest possible position.

I like FWD and I think Volvo is far from crap, but I'm young and inexperienced. How does the Volvo compare to the other cars?

The S60 mkI comes with a great rear axle and has very safe handling. The stock set-up has a strong tendency to understeer, but flick it into a corner and it will slide beautifully. If you fiddle with the front suspension settings a bit, you can do wonders!

The Volvo is FWD, so it's crap from the beginning

RWD is, by nature, vastly superior. The front wheels don't bear acceleration forces, so steering feel is superior, plus you can steer with the throttle, etc.

Then again, there are good FWD cars and there are bad FWD cars.

Manual E36
Manual E46
Manual W202
Manual W203
Manual or Geartronic FWD S60 P2, especially the T5
Manual B5 A4 quattro

The obvious choice is the E46. Possibly one of the best model series to ever come out of Munich.

The E36 is a decade of a car older than your S60 and so is the W202. You will feel it imidiately and it's not worth. Your S60 is much more of a car than those.

 

[klier]

If i have to spend my money i will buy an e46, because i drove it and i love it, indeed the e46 335i coupé it's one of my favourite car.

330i. 335i was launched on E92/E90

But great choice, E46 is a great driver's car! And still wonderful with NA I6.

The E36 is a decade of a car older than your S60 and so is the W202. You will feel it imidiately and it's not worth. Your S60 is much more of a car than those.

Disagree so much (agree with the rest). E36 over an S60 any day. E36 has everything a car needs, and the S60 lacks several of those elements.

 

[sanpt7777]

Sorry guys, this is text heavy haha

I ask all of this because my car is broken. Everything is maintenance related. PCV, tires, suspension, full 160,000km service, fuel leak and mysterious stalling.

People I know give me a hard time. My dad uncle etc. They insist that I should sell it and get a new Hyundai i10 or something. Nothing wrong with Hyundai, but I like older cars. I see more value in them.

I'm young and inexperienced, so I needed advice, but no one I know in person has good things to say about the Volvo, but they also happen to have never owned one or any euro car for that matter.


The reason I ask about the older cars is that I can get them for cheap and would probably be easier for me to sell my Volvo for whatever I get as is, and buy a trouble free W202, B5 or E36; instead of going trough the hassle of fixing the S60 (tyres and suspension, PCV, fuel leak, mysterious stalling and full 160,000km service).

I have experience with all of that car.
My actual girlfriend has a V70 P2 D5 FWD automatic.
Her dad owned:
V70 P1 2.5tdi and reached 300.000kms with no problem
V70 P2 2.4D manual 360.000kms without problems, and a crash killed it
now has this v70 with my girl usually drives, with 220.000kms.
A part from regular maintenance, he changed only a stuck thermostat.

As you pointed out, the volvo has a very bad turning circle, has an horrible navigation system, and it's thirsty, but it's a good car overall, very comfy seats, has a lot of space, it's quite inside, and has a very good build quality.
If i have to spend my money i will buy an e46, because i drove it and i love it, indeed the e46 335i coupé it's one of my favourite car. i like her RWD feeling, and the longitudinal engine (my girl drove my passat, and she also say that handle better than her volvo, with a light and precise steering).
If i'm not wrong the a4 b5, has the same floorpan than my passat, and i can say that is good, also with the torsion beam at the rear.
If you choose the 1.8T, check a lot the services, because it's know for developing oil sludge problems.

So Enrico, you basically had good experience reliability wise with this car. Mine is gasoline though. I think Giannis as well has had a trouble free ownership with his S60. Thanks for the tips on the VAGs. The reason I added the A4 to the list is because it's cheap, and will not make me miss the turbo on my S60. But I fear it's reliability. I bet there are tons of how-to online though, and problems surely are worked out by now.

Visibility is borderline acceptable and you seat way too high.

Really? I seriously need to drive more cars haha
I'm used to average pedestrian cars, and my previous car was way too high. Also, my folks always get cars with window tint (which I hate) and my previous car, which was used, had tint as well. I think the lack of tint, wide mirrors and folding headrests give me the feel of a better visibility. Also, being used to average cars, the seating is usually too high.

The S60 mkI comes with a great rear axle and has very safe handling. The stock set-up has a strong tendency to understeer, but flick it into a corner and it will slide beautifully. If you fiddle with the front suspension settings a bit, you can do wonders!

The car needs new springs, bushings and shocks. Maybe I'll get it corner balanced as well once the new suspension is there.

RWD is, by nature, vastly superior. The front wheels don't bear acceleration forces, so steering feel is superior, plus you can steer with the throttle, etc.

Then again, there are good FWD cars and there are bad FWD cars.

I can't argue (nor I want to) with that. But the thing is, is it worth to sacrifice the power of the 2.5T for RWD?

The obvious choice is the E46. Possibly one of the best model series to ever come out of Munich.

The E36 is a decade of a car older than your S60 and so is the W202. You will feel it imidiately and it's not worth.

I imagine the W202 is at least more nimble? Do you mean I will perceive the car as less refined? I've been advised to buy an E46 at least 3 times now. I was also close to buying a W202 once, but it had a ton of problems haha, that was the reason for the cheap price. What attracts me the most with the E46 is the aftermarket is huge.

Your S60 is much more of a car than those.

That's what I wanted to hear. Ideally I would keep the 60.

Disagree so much (agree with the rest). E36 over an S60 any day. E36 has everything a car needs, and the S60 lacks several of those elements.

Exactly this is what I'm after, but 4 door. I like the styling better on the 4 door. Either black or oxford green
I just love it.

 

[Jayden]

I have been driven audi b5 a4 for half of a year. As you said it's really cheap and for that price it's a greate car. Now I own Passat b5 1,8T which is pretty much the same...May be you may wanna look on Passat. But personally, I would buy E46 from your list.

 

[Enrico]

330i. 335i was launched on E92/E90

But great choice, E46 is a great driver's car! And still wonderful with NA I6.



Disagree so much (agree with the rest). E36 over an S60 any day. E36 has everything a car needs, and the S60 lacks several of those elements.

Yeah you absolutely right! was late night and i mispelled!

A friend has a 330xi in 2003 or so, he had 2 problems, which are the front suspension wishbones, and the fan of the air conditioning system.

I can also quote the passat B5, i'm owning it and i find it really well balanced. i have a tdi pd engine with pulls really well, and it's economical.

I don't suggest you the w202 and the e36, because, are getting old, and if you want a workhorse, might not be the wise choice, although are generally reliable.
if you are a DIY person, might worth, but, bearing, brushing, and seals, are getting old, and you can experience a lot of trouble from that (i talk from experience, because my e30 and my 190 are really reliable, but a seal sometimes breaks, so i have to change by my own, because the garage charge me a lot).

Also a vw golf mk4, might be a good choice with the diesel engine!

 

[sanpt7777]

Sadly I live in Mexico. Diesel is limited to trucks. Recently, VAG just started to make an effort to bring diesel, Peugeot too. Actually, I don't think we even get TDI Audis. We just have TDI Jettas but they are new, MK4 diesels are almost non existent.

I listed my car for sale. If it sells, I'll save some money and upgrade to an E46, if it doesn't, I'll just fix it.

I don't really want to sell my S60, but it's an easier way out. If I keep it I'll try to upgrade components instead of replacing them with OEM parts.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, seems like the S60 and E46 are the clear winners.


P.S. If I don't find a nice manual E46 4 door, I'll look for a Jeep Cherokee XJ 4X4 haha
I think it would be a good daily/adventure truck. Also, they are cheap. I didn't mentioned it because it's not really comparable to the others

 

[Centurion]

As Giannis said the E46 is one of the finest cars BMW have ever made. Today, an E46 is an excellent first door into the world of RWD cars.

Prices are low enough for anyone to buy one, they are relatively modern but not at the expense of being too electrical in the way they work. More importantly the E46 has a line-up of very delicious in-line 6 engines. A guy at work has a gun metal grey E46 330d coupe M-sport and it's a very fun car. If you get one with standard suspension you can continue to enjoy the suppleness and comfort levels of a Volvo but also enjoy a more dynamic driving experience.

A few months ago I was contemplating buying the most recent S60 but unless you live in countries neighbouring Scandinavia, you will have a tough time getting one off your hands. But if you enjoy the Volvo experience then resale value is less of an issue.

 

[Porsche Guy]

What do you intend to do with your car? City driving? Back road joyrides? Track days? The more realistic you are with your intended purpose and needs, the better decision you will ultimately make.

Test drive as many cars as possible before you make your decision. Buy whatever cars feels right. Dont' worry about FWD or RWD unless you plan to do a lot of track work.

I drive a manual e46 330i zhp sedan as a daily driver. It's a great car but repairs are expensive and increasingly frequent as the miles pile up. It is really hard to find a low mile e46 considering they haven't been in production for over a decade.

Why not buy a certified used S60 from a Volvo dealership? They are really cheap. I'm not sure about Mexico but in the US, used Volvos purchased from a Volvo dealership come with an unlimited warranty! It's a really great deal. I have been looking at buying a used S60 T5 for daily driving as my e46 is at 155,000 miles or ~250,000 kms. S60s seem to be an excellent daily driver.

 

[sanpt7777]

As Giannis said the E46 is one of the finest cars BMW have ever made. Today, an E46 is an excellent first door into the world of RWD cars.

Thanks for the suggestion, everyone seems to swear by the E46. It would be my first RWD indeed.

A few months ago I was contemplating buying the most recent S60 but unless you live in countries neighbouring Scandinavia, you will have a tough time getting one off your hands.

Hahaha yeah, so true. Mine came to me by chance.

What do you intend to do with your car? City driving? Back road joyrides? Track days? The more realistic you are with your intended purpose and needs, the better decision you will ultimately make.

Yep, I'm totally realistic. I want a good silent commuter, I want good acceleration, good handling, and some luxury. I don't even consider tracking my car. But I will eventually try it, but it's not something I care much about. One more thing, highway performance is important to me because I want to make a road trip to the USA in 2016.
The Volvo I already own is everything I want in a car. The problem and the reason why I want to replace it is it needs too much maintenance and it will be a ha$$le to fix.

It needs new shocks, springs, bushings, sway bars (one broke), front wheel bearings, full 100,000 miles service, fix a fuel leak and mysterious stalling. It also needs to get the stereo fixed, new xenon bulbs and a fog lamp. That's why I think maybe it's easier to replace it with a well maintained car.

Test drive as many cars as possible before you make your decision. Buy whatever cars feels right. Dont' worry about FWD or RWD unless you plan to do a lot of track work.

I drive a manual e46 330i zhp sedan as a daily driver. It's a great car but repairs are expensive and increasingly frequent as the miles pile up. It is really hard to find a low mile e46 considering they haven't been in production for over a decade.

I actually like FWD so no biggie, is it easy to work on an E46? I've Heard it is but parts are expensive, maybe not more than the Volvo already is.

Why not buy a certified used S60 from a Volvo dealership? They are really cheap. I'm not sure about Mexico but in the US, used Volvos purchased from a Volvo dealership come with an unlimited warranty! It's a really great deal. I have been looking at buying a used S60 T5 for daily driving as my e46 is at 155,000 miles or ~250,000 kms. S60s seem to be an excellent daily driver.

They are perfect for DD indeed. Volvos have a bad reputation in Mexico because people think they are unreliable and because of the bad resale value. It becomes a vicious circle.
I actually want a T5, the thing is I don't really like the facelift look but I want the facelift engine haha

I'll check the CPO cars and see how's the warranty here. We get 5 years on new Volvos.
But then again, would it be cheaper to get a new (to me) car than fixing mine? I do believe it would

 

[Enrico]

My dad in the 1994, well, my mother actually, has an cherokee 4.0, and after 2 years traded for a grandcherokee.
He never liked that car, because was underpowered, with bad brakes and a very bad automatic box..and he said the same of the grandcherokee. in 1999 if i remember correctly, he traded for a subaru forester, which he loved.

From my personal experience, listening on what the dad of my girl said, he never had a better car than a Volvo! When the time to change this will come, he will buy another volvo, maybe manual to save some money on diesel.
He, back in the 80, was making a lot of money, and had 2 ferraris, one porsche, and he only bought Mercedes. When he broke the w210, he traded for the "new" 1999 V70, and since than he continue to buy volvos. 3 in a row! and with the same colour!
Regular maintenance, an very inexpensive things.
He (and my girl, and I) complain only about the very bad turning circle, but not more.
I have no experience with the petrol engine, and the the automatic gearbox on the petrol, because i think that the d5 use and aisin 6 speed transmission, but for me it's a good point to start.

Also the B5 passat, lasted to my uncle, with the 1.8 engine naturally aspired, 291.000km, and he traded only because he want to change it, and it was on Autogas.
I asked he what it did to the car, before buy my b5,5.
He said that he skipped a lot of service, because for he, the car it's a thing that go from point a to b, changed a door lock module, front suspension (which are a weak point of this model of passat), a leaky waterpump, next to the timing belt service, the boot door handle and a rear wiper motor.

this is the last one, behind my Mercedes

 

[Giannis]

It needs new shocks, springs, bushings, sway bars (one broke), front wheel bearings, full 100,000 miles service, fix a fuel leak and mysterious stalling. It also needs to get the stereo fixed, new xenon bulbs and a fog lamp.

With all due respect, do you believe you will indeed sell it in this condition?

 

[sanpt7777]

My dad in the 1994, well, my mother actually, has an cherokee 4.0, and after 2 years traded for a grandcherokee.
He never liked that car, because was underpowered, with bad brakes and a very bad automatic box..and he said the same of the grandcherokee. in 1999 if i remember correctly, he traded for a subaru forester, which he loved.

Really? I think they probably are not that good as DD as you said, but better than public transport haha. The reason I want one of those is because I would actually take it off road and it's easy to modify. Owners say the engine is bulletproof and the XJ in general is considered reliable.

From my personal experience, listening on what the dad of my girl said, he never had a better car than a Volvo! When the time to change this will come, he will buy another volvo, maybe manual to save some money on diesel.
He, back in the 80, was making a lot of money, and had 2 ferraris, one porsche, and he only bought Mercedes. When he broke the w210, he traded for the "new" 1999 V70, and since than he continue to buy volvos. 3 in a row! and with the same colour!
Regular maintenance, an very inexpensive things.
He (and my girl, and I) complain only about the very bad turning circle, but not more.
I have no experience with the petrol engine, and the the automatic gearbox on the petrol, because i think that the d5 use and aisin 6 speed transmission, but for me it's a good point to start.

Yes they are different, mine is 5 speed Geartronic and it's great, smooth and always in the right gear. You can hold the shifts when in manual mode better tan most modern cars, and it lets you pull in 2nd.

Also the B5 passat, lasted to my uncle, with the 1.8 engine naturally aspired, 291.000km, and he traded only because he want to change it, and it was on Autogas.
I asked he what it did to the car, before buy my b5,5.
He said that he skipped a lot of service, because for he, the car it's a thing that go from point a to b, changed a door lock module, front suspension (which are a weak point of this model of passat), a leaky waterpump, next to the timing belt service, the boot door handle and a rear wiper motor.

this is the last one, behind my Mercedes

What Mercedes do you have?

If I were to get a Passat, I'd get the 4 Motion VR6, they are affordable too. I'll check for the reliability on those

 

[sanpt7777]

With all due respect, do you believe you will indeed sell it in this condition?

I totally get where you are coming from, no offense taken.
I posted all the wrong things with the car on the ad.
That's why I said I would sell it for whatever I could get.

As a parts car, it's sellable, actually a couple of people inquired about it but I don't think they are serious. Another guy wanted the wheels haha

It's listed for something like 2,600 euros. This cars are around 5,800 here so I guess it's low enough to sell

But, answering your question: No, I don't think so haha
I don't think it would sell in good shape either.

It's just a matter of someone who actually wants to part the car, or repair it. I don't believe the second will happen

 

[Enrico]

The engine was reliable, although the don't do much kms, but they was very disappointed by the rest.
As for the Aisin gearbox, it's very comfortable, but it don't let you select the gear by yourself. well, actually he does, but if you want to be in the 6th gear at 60km/h, the car stay in 5th..
Here we have few 2.8VR6 due to the high prices of petrol, taxes and insurance premiums, so i can't put and advice for you.
I have a W201 190E 2.0, from the picture, you can say the back of my car, and a B5,5 Passat TDI.

You have also to consider, that most of the things that you have to do to your S60, are regular maintenance, and you can have to do the same with the other car you listed. Make some accounting, before sell and buy, so you can face what you have to spend and if it worth.

 

[sanpt7777]

Here we have few 2.8VR6 due to the high prices of petrol, taxes and insurance premiums, so i can't put and advice for you.
I have a W201 190E 2.0, from the picture, you can say the back of my car, and a B5,5 Passat TDI.

Yep, actually, they are kind of common here because of the opposite. Gas prices are just starting to increase but there are no taxes for big engines. There are also no incentives to buy small engines :/
The only thing, cars older than 9 years old can't be driven one day a week and one Saturday. It doesn't matter if the car passes emissions. The program is based on the car's age. You can have a lawyer defend you for this so your car can be driven daily though.

You have also to consider, that most of the things that you have to do to your S60, are regular maintenance, and you can have to do the same with the other car you listed. Make some accounting, before sell and buy, so you can face what you have to spend and if it worth.

Yes that's what this is all about. People I know don't seem to understand that. Neither my dad does. I need this or any other car for only a year, so that's why I'm thinking fixing this may not be worth it. But then again, if I fix it I probably would like to keep it longer. And that's my other fear, selling this car for cheap, and buying a new (used) one only to have it fail two months after I bought it and as you said, having to fix it.
Right now, I don't need a car, so I have some time to decide how should I spend my money. As Giannis pointed out, it's gonna be hard to sell this anyway.
I played with the numbers before considering this and it's indeed cheaper to buy another car, assuming it won't need as much maintenance.

 

[sanpt7777]

By the way, the 190E is very cool. I thought it was a bigger Benz but my first impression was 190 indeed

 

[sanpt7777]

Just to update, the Volvo was indeed for sale, but people were inquiring about the wheels. I'm going to refurbish them and sell them

I'll be keeping and fixing the car

 

[sanpt7777]

Again, just to update, I am having more people interested in buying the car than I thought there would be
I was also looking for a job and my dad asked me to work for him since there is a mess in his company. So I'm starting to finally build funds. As you may remember, I haven't fixed it because I had to pay for my school exams and what not.
Anyway, I can't make my mind on if I want to sell it or not. I was already imagining it with a nice set of 17" OZ Superturismo LMs
After this I would only want a BMW, and I can only afford:

-E36: A lot to pick from. Small and nimble from what I've read, cool styling.
Giannis, I take your word for it, it's probably not the best after being spoiled by the S60. Especially in terms of interior quality, sound system, dat turbo and how silent it is inside with the laminated glass.
-E34: Not exactly a bunch of them out there to grab one. I only would buy it in black and I6, so my chances of finding one go from 5% to like 1% haha. I did found a mint 1995 black M5 Nürburgring pack for sale, $25,000 dlls approx. Maybe like €22k. Needless to say it's out of my budget by 20k haha

I can't afford the following but could in a couple of months by saving:
-E38 740i: Too big? Boring? Expensive to maintain?
-E39: Only would get I6. Seems perfect to me, I love the styling (not as much as the E34 tho), it's not that expensive TBH, and there are a lot available for sale usually.

E46: Out of the question. Believe it or not, prices average around the same as the E39 and E38.

So, let's see how it goes. If I buy the ones I can afford, I would have a nice car, but if I decide to go carless for two more months or more, I could save to have a great car, and I think I should always aim for better than just good.
In an ideal world I'd get both 5ers haha, but my world is not ideal and while I prefer the E34, the E39 is simply a superior vehicle. I bet I can build it to be "The Ultimate Daily Driving Machine"
Anyway. I'm bored so this is just some pondering to pass the time and give you something to read.
When the S60 is actually sold I'll worry about getting something new