Joy is BMW.

[EnI]

^

Then I guess the campaign is not targeting you. So, look away.

The brand / the products by BMW are also meant for other people (who think differently) as well. Don't be so possessive & pro uniform.

 

[Sunny]

^

Then I guess the campaign is not targeting you. So, look away.

I sure will be 'looking away' if M1 disappoints.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

And they run it better & sell more cars. How's that?

What is this obssession you have with selling more cars = more success? Who is the biggest manufacturer in the world now? Toyota? General Motors? Does that mean they are better cars than BMW?

If BMW produces more cars and fulfiils more niches, of course they're going to sell more cars. It's sad that in trying to achieve this global domination they've had to go against everything BMW stands for, because that is what it is beginning to seem like.

 

[Mr Robert]

I sure will be 'looking away' if M1 disappoints.

Me to

If BMW fail that then there is nothing left of what those "stories" are made of.

 

[klier]

Me to

If BMW fail that then there is nothing left of what those "stories" are made of.

Because they suddenly make crap cars across the range or something?

There's no indication that the M1 or new M5 will fail anyways. BMW always delivers.

 

[Mr Robert]

Because they suddenly make crap cars across the range or something?

There's no indication that the M1 or new M5 will fail anyways. BMW always delivers.

Five years ago, I would have said that there's no chance BMW would screw it up, today, not so sure.

 

[warot]

I think the problem is, before engineers and enthusiasts used to run the company, now bunch if metro sexual designers and marketing types run the company. Sad.

As an engineer there, I kinda take offense to that. I sure don't run the company, but I still would like to think that we make a difference.

What is this obssession you have with selling more cars = more success? Who is the biggest manufacturer in the world now? Toyota? General Motors? Does that mean they are better cars than BMW?

If BMW produces more cars and fulfiils more niches, of course they're going to sell more cars. It's sad that in trying to achieve this global domination they've had to go against everything BMW stands for, because that is what it is beginning to seem like.

It's so easy for people to assume that car companies can remain constant at all times. By filling in niches, they draw more crowds towards the brand. Someone who needs an X6 might be more willing to buy a Z4 over an SLK and TT.

Has anyone stopped for a second and thought that without trying to compete against other manufacturers (ie less profit), there's less money to be spent towards R&D. At the end of the day, more money means more competitive products. What would you guys rather have? A campaign that no longer caters towards hardcore enthusiasts such as us? Or having the next 3er lose its top spot as the best handling vehicle in its class?

I see that you drive a Boxster. Did Porsche go against what they stand for? Should they still only be making 911's? You obviously found a Porsche niche that suited you. And other people obviously thought the Cayenne suited their needs too.

Five years ago, I would have said that there's no chance BMW would screw it up, today, not so sure.

The last few cars by BMW: E89 Z4, F10 5er, F01 7er. All of these have received better reception in this forum than I've ever seen in my time here at GCF.

Guys, I just want to mention that I've been a lifetime fan of this brand and the fact that I work here now changes my perspective for sure. But I hope that some of you guys know me well enough to realize that I'm not part of the marketing team, and I'm just here in my free time, these are just my personal views.

 

[Sunny]

As an engineer there, I kinda take offense to that. I sure don't run the company, but I still would like to think that we make a difference.

I think you misunderstood me. What I meant to say was that, at least from out side, it looks like engineers and enthusiasts don't seem to have as much say in things within BMW as they used to. Of course it is just speculation on my part from what I see from outside as a fan. BTW, I am an engineer too, I would never offend them.

 

[klier]

Five years ago, I would have said that there's no chance BMW would screw it up, today, not so sure.

Oh? And what has changed exactly? I can think of only two things, the X5 M and no new Z4 M.
BMW is still the best kid in it's class, just like 5, 10 or 15 years ago. Just with a hell of a lot more products, and that's a good thing. I don't want to see BMW play in the margins to be bought by Toyota or something in the future.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Has anyone stopped for a second and thought that without trying to compete against other manufacturers (ie less profit), there's less money to be spent towards R&D. At the end of the day, more money means more competitive products. What would you guys rather have? A campaign that no longer caters towards hardcore enthusiasts such as us? Or having the next 3er lose its top spot as the best handling vehicle in its class?

I see that you drive a Boxster. Did Porsche go against what they stand for? Should they still only be making 911's? You obviously found a Porsche niche that suited you. And other people obviously thought the Cayenne suited their needs too.

Warot, I know exactly what you're saying, and Porsche is an obvious example of a brand which has broadened their product range in order to survive. The difference is, BMW have cashed in on their halo brand "M" with the X5/X6 M. Porsche never touched the GT3/GT3 RS. The Porsche management wanted to offer the GT3/GT3 RS with a PDK gearbox but the department in charge of their most pure cars was having none of it. I wonder whether the M division had similar feelings about making an X5/X6 M but were "overruled"?

 

[Mr Robert]

Oh? And what has changed exactly? I can think of only two things, the X5 M and no new Z4 M.
BMW is still the best kid in it's class, just like 5, 10 or 15 years ago. Just with a hell of a lot more products, and that's a good thing. I don't want to see BMW play in the margins to be bought by Toyota or something in the future.

The main change is the direction and the priorities made.

For me, I see no end in itself in BMW surviving if it does not give us what we want. The X5M and lack of Z4M are just two of the things that rises doubts in my mind.

The M1 should be all BMW could be and if not, I have no interest in it. After all, buying cars like this is, and should be, based purely on emotion.

 

[AdvEvo]

nice post betty

Porsche knows what there enthusiasts likes and keep given them what they want.

Bmw ///M does not care anymore about what there costumers want. They think they are untoucheable we have a motorsport name and we keep it. And we are gonna milk the last cent out of it. It if that means cheap AG turbo route then so be it.

With the products they have deliverd us lately it s not even worth it to mention the name motorsports together with bmw.

Also the GTS is just a marketing thing thats the last breath they show us what they can do just like the 25th anniversity m5. But what do we costumers get out if it. NOTHING the GTS is priced so high that only people who collect cars would pay for such amount and M5 25th anniversity isn t even on sale. The competion package on the M3 is a joke.

The last cards are on the M1 i hope they get it right but i seriously have big doubts.

 

[EnI]

BMW had to chose between staying independent (and expanding the model line to attract broader masses - meaning some compromises had to be made) & secure the future of the brand as it is, or staying sporty niche brand ala Jaguar or Porsche, and not being independent but a part of large automotive corporation (meaning product planning would depend on corporate dictate), and can damage the brand on the long run (since it depends on whole corporation, not only on itself - if the corporation is in trouble, so can be the brand in some way.

And BMW (shareholders & managers) decided to stay independent, and go a bit broader regarding product line - attracting other customers as well - meaning new cars that are not 100% true to the hard core raw original BMW values from decades ago.

So, independence came with a price.

Other sports brands (Alfa Romeo, Saab, Aston Martin, Audi, Porsche, Jaguar) have all been a part of a bigger family (or was till recently) - a division of a larger corporation. BMW could had been sold to Ford - staying a niche brand. But then people would gone mad when finding Ford parts (eg. from Mondeo, Focus) in the BMW cars.

Independence is also a part of BMW brand image. A power of survival on your own. And some customers appreciate that very much. Connecting it to a strong character. MB also has that image. All the other brands are some how "infected" with the image of just being a division within some huge corporation.

Regarding Porsche: the Porsche brand image is different to the one of BMW. It has much more cache - of being prestigious & expensive. So it is able to sell the cars by high prices. BMW isn't able to do that - since it's considered to be in the same league than MB, or even a tad lower. So, BMW cars priced in a range of a Porsche would be a suicide. Or it would require to brand repositioning - from offering sedan to offering mainly coupes & roadsters / cabrios etc. Pure sports cars. A sedan & a SUV could only be an addition than rather a core model.

Porsche also was at the cross-road few years ago: deciding what to do. Either expanding the models line by several times with small roadsters, big & small sedans, hatchbacks, small SUVs / crossovers etc., or merging with larger corporation. And they decided to do that: to merge with / acquire the VAG - since there were family connection present. Yet the plan failed - and now Porsche is a VAG division. :/

And now being the VAG division Porsche can stay a niche brand - offering niche & specialized products of special sporty character. Yet it is forced to use VAG parts (like engines, gearboxes etc in some low-end models; HVAC & infotainment systems etc) - and even more importatnt: it will be forced to share / co-develop a platform that will be used across VAG portfolio. Meaning Porsche will be just a better Audi in the end. Or if they will be successful to communicate vice versa: that eg. Audi, Seat etc are lesser Porsches. In either way it hurts Porsche image. At least in the long run.

 

[Mr Robert]

For my part, I care more about the product than I do about the financial structure behind it.

Motorsport is a much more important part of the BMW image than "independence" have ever been.

 

[EnI]

For my part, I care more about the product than I do about the financial structure behind it.

Motorsport is a much more important part of the BMW image than "independence" have ever been.

But all that is connected. Product comes from a factory / company. Not from "above".

Sure customers do not care about corporate affairs - but the corporate affairs DA affect the products very much. Think Toyota.

Sometimes in the short run the situation seems bad & wrong, but in the long run it proves to be excellent. Or vice versa ...

So, sometimes little sacrifices are needed for a bigger & more important future goal. And doing nothing or following the old path can prove to be fatal in the next years.

And as the company is concerned it has to compromised between the past, the present and THE FUTURE. Sure you, now, have a certain interests - but the company has to secure it's future. Sometimes the price is to neglect some customers temporarily - not giving them exactly what they want. But sometimes that's a sacrifice that is needed for a better future.



Old customers can still come back in the following years ... It's all OK till there is more new ones coming in than existing ones going away. It's all about total numbers, not much about individual cases.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

nice post betty

Also the GTS is just a marketing thing thats the last breath they show us what they can do just like the 25th anniversity m5. But what do we costumers get out if it. NOTHING the GTS is priced so high that only people who collect cars would pay for such amount

Am I to assume by this statement you won't be taking delivery of the GTS you ordered? A real shame for you if true. However, I wonder if Klier has anything to say on the matter as he took GREAT delight in putting me straight when I said this is not a car accessible to most people. I said "when Andre takes delivery you'll have proven me wrong".

Klier?

 

[Mr Robert]

But all that is connected. Product comes from a factory / company. Not from "above".

Sure customers do not care about corporate affairs - but the corporate affairs DA affect the products very much. Think Toyota.

Seems like the current path does not lead anywhere I fancy. What would be the difference?

Old customers can still come back in the following years ... It's all OK till there is more new ones coming in than existing ones going away. It's all about total numbers, not much about individual cases.

Think Toyota... except there is no LF-A

 

[Human]

BMW had to chose between staying independent (and expanding the model line to attract broader masses - meaning some compromises had to be made) & secure the future of the brand as it is, or staying sporty niche brand ala Jaguar or Porsche, and not being independent but a part of large automotive corporation (meaning product planning would depend on corporate dictate), and can damage the brand on the long run (since it depends on whole corporation, not only on itself - if the corporation is in trouble, so can be the brand in some way.

And BMW (shareholders & managers) decided to stay independent, and go a bit broader regarding product line - attracting other customers as well - meaning new cars that are not 100% true to the hard core raw original BMW values from decades ago.

So, independence came with a price.

Other sports brands (Alfa Romeo, Saab, Aston Martin, Audi, Porsche, Jaguar) have all been a part of a bigger family (or was till recently) - a division of a larger corporation. BMW could had been sold to Ford - staying a niche brand. But then people would gone mad when finding Ford parts (eg. from Mondeo, Focus) in the BMW cars.

Independence is also a part of BMW brand image. A power of survival on your own. And some customers appreciate that very much.LIKE HUMAN Connecting it to a strong character. MB also has that image. All the other brands are some how "infected" with the image of just being a division within some huge corporation.

Regarding Porsche: the Porsche brand image is different to the one of BMW. It has much more cache - of being prestigious & expensive. So it is able to sell the cars by high prices. BMW isn't able to do that - since it's considered to be in the same league than MB, or even a tad lower. So, BMW cars priced in a range of a Porsche would be a suicide. Or it would require to brand repositioning - from offering sedan to offering mainly coupes & roadsters / cabrios etc. Pure sports cars. A sedan & a SUV could only be an addition than rather a core model.

Porsche also was at the cross-road few years ago: deciding what to do. Either expanding the models line by several times with small roadsters, big & small sedans, hatchbacks, small SUVs / crossovers etc., or merging with larger corporation. And they decided to do that: to merge with / acquire the VAG - since there were family connection present. Yet the plan failed - and now Porsche is a VAG division. :/

And now being the VAG division Porsche can stay a niche brand - offering niche & specialized products of special sporty character. Yet it is forced to use VAG parts (like engines, gearboxes etc in some low-end models; HVAC & infotainment systems etc) - and even more importatnt: it will be forced to share / co-develop a platform that will be used across VAG portfolio. Meaning Porsche will be just a better Audi in the end. Or if they will be successful to communicate vice versa: that eg. Audi, Seat etc are lesser Porsches. In either way it hurts Porsche image. At least in the long run.

Thanks EnI, just what i wanted to hear, music to my ears - BMW's strategy.

I for one knew AND wrote letter upon letter to the then Daimler-Benz board of directors e.g. Jùrgen Schrempp and Jùrgen Hubbert, warning them and speaking my mind on the now failed merger with Chrysler that diluted the Three pointed star and damaged the M-B name, things that had cost millions and the M-B brand is still on the 'road to recovery' brand side from those days.
Porsche is now owned by VW and they themselves lost lots of money in trying the opposite of the deal.

A brand for me is a INDEPENDENT facility, with independent values, structures, financial freedom, marketing and development freedom. A company using it's OWN / AUTHENTIC technology, engines and facilities. BMW was and still is an ICON and pure MADE BY BMW.

I want to drive PURE and Owned by itself, I want to own BMW technology and I want BMW to stay independent from foreign and hostile companies like the Japanese etc...

Whatever the strategy to do so and to attract more customers to the brand. Even if some future strategies mean bending some rules, I trust the Management board and shareholders to learn from the 'other' German and American carmaker's mistakes and be clever German's with pride in their brand and sustainable plans and products that does not dilute the brand but builds it up and cater for our needs - GO BMW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[klier]

What do you want from me Betty? Another stupid conversation on why you think BMW sucks so much with all it's fans? Or what?

When the notice came a couple of months ago that only like 500 GTS models (or something) were going to be build, I already knew Adv was not going to be one of the owners. That number is just too tiny.

Sounds like AdvEvo is bitter because he doesn't have enough money for GTS and the M1 is going to be a twin turbo, something he hates more than anything. Just look at the endless stream of posts coming from him on 1addicts. He doesn't even listen to the why of it, just keeps hammering on the turbo aspect and why it will suck according to him.

 

[AdvEvo]

What do you want from me Betty? Another stupid conversation on why you think BMW sucks so much with all it's fans? Or what?

When the notice came a couple of months ago that only like 500 GTS models (or something) were going to be build, I already knew Adv was not going to be one of the owners. That number is just too tiny.

Sounds like AdvEvo is bitter because he doesn't have enough money for GTS and the M1 is going to be a twin turbo, something he hates more than anything. Just look at the endless stream of posts coming from him on 1addicts. He doesn't even listen to the why of it, just keeps hammering on the turbo aspect and why it will suck according to him.

LOL what a post klier.