Joy is BMW.

[klier]

For how long can the sporty image prevail, when it is only skin deep?

Not for long. But BMW being sporty isn't skin deep, it's in the DNA of every car.

 

[south]

Look, guys. There are detailed customer satisfaction & expectation survey available. Done methodically correct - so very representative ... used for further product developments.

So, if M5 turns out to be more comfy (eg. more daily-usable gearbox) & not as loud etc - it's because majority of customers (current M5 customers!!!) wanted so.

Do you really think eg. BMW care what a 120i or 320d T owner thinks about M5, X5M, etc - about a car out of his/her reach? THEY DON'T! They only care about REAL prospects - real potential customers. Other groups are irrelevant. (Potential) 1er customers are relevant when it comes to 1er, and (potential) 3er customers when it comes to 3er etc.

Companies have other marketing tricks in their sleeves to make fans drool - and that excludes gambling with products. Products are tailored to satisfy customer needs, not to satisfy some fantasies of random dreamer.

Customers always have the latest word ... and the USP is what customers want to be an USP.

So in the end - perhaps - in some 30 or 40 years customer pools of M & AMG will be exchanged. Who knows.

Be sure BMW also learned some lessons with iDrive, electronic glitches, iffy cabin materials, too dividing design etc. - be sure they are more focused on customer voices & demands.

So ... if BMW cars are evolving in more refined & less raw products - blame it on the customers (the vast majority of them).

As said many times: voices of car journalists & some members of internet communities are not representative sample of true customer opinion. And therefore not very relevant to carmakers - sure some times some issues mentioned there are relevant, but not all. And what matters is group voice, not a voice if an individual. Critical mass is important ... Individuals are not. They never really are - marketing only cares about masses. But there are some tricks to reach / communicate customer directly - and therefore making him feel he is very important to the company. He is - but only as a member of larger group, not as an individual.

Yes, sad fact. But that's how things work.

So BMW is going to make the M5 just like their potential customers wanted it to be. What a great coincidence that the tech necessary to do so happens to be just the tech used in the X ///M models. I mean, BMW surely would have used a high revving engine and DCT if only their customers had wished so...

BTW: Take a good pair of headphones and watch some videos of the E60 M5, the E9x M3 and the X5 ///M. If you don't hear the significant difference then, well, not even worth discussing then.


Best regards,
south

 

[Zafiro]

Regarding the sound: have you heard X5M / X6M engine / exhaust sound in person? I guess not. Just to remind you: when M3 E92 was introduced many media claimed the V8 engine sounds "too civilized", "rumbling like 4-cyl turbo" , "far inferior to M3 E46 high-pitch from I6 engine" etc. I also remember your reaction to the first M3 reviews - and your panic & hysteria. A lot of fuss about nothing. And you are doing the same right now - taking some media reports from granted.

No I have not but I heard from persons who seen the car (even owners) that the engine sound isnt evil enough. So in this case media seem to be spot on. Another thing is that the engine sound like any other V8 engine, at least M3/M5 have a better and more exciting engine sound but thats not much to do about therefore the sound need to be more louder and agressive for the next M5.

Regarding M3 V8, I know what I did back then but the problem with M3 V8 is that they compared the car with M3 E46 and that was big mistake. X6M is being compared to normal X6 and noone have said that X6M differs much from normal X6 and that scares me a lot. So the issue with M3 isnt relevant with X6M.

 

[Zafiro]

Not for long. But BMW being sporty isn't skin deep, it's in the DNA of every car.

Looks like Audi is becoming what BMW used to be, 'sporty'. Audi is slowly overtaking BMW and if you are a sport fan, then Audi seem to be the brand you want to drive. RS5 is going to be one scary car. Gulp!

 

[Mr Robert]

It's one big crazy carousel ... And when it stops - everybody can get back to the roots if really needed. In this case the brands with rich heritage will have much better chance then the others.

That is the developement I think we will have...

Then it will be a race to the roots, manufacturers will try to reposition themselves in the doing. It is, no doubt, a great opportunity.

 

[BimmerToday]

Looks like Audi is becoming what BMW used to be, 'sporty'. Audi is slowly overtaking BMW and if you are a sport fan, then Audi seem to be the brand you want to drive. RS5 is going to be one scary car. Gulp!

Maybe the RS5 will be sportier than the M3. But let's wait and see. And what else does Audi offer? An R8 and an Audi TT. What about the core-models? A3, A4, A5, A6, A8, Q5, Q7 - do you want to call any of them sporty? Or even sportier than their BMW-rival? I don't think so and this is why BMW is still the sportier brand - as long as you aren't considering understeering front-heavy cars to be sporty.

 

[Zafiro]

Maybe the RS5 will be sportier than the M3. But let's wait and see. And what else does Audi offer? An R8 and an Audi TT. What about the core-models? A3, A4, A5, A6, A8, Q5, Q7 - do you want to call any of them sporty? Or even sportier than their BMW-rival? I don't think so and this is why BMW is still the sportier brand - as long as you aren't considering understeering front-heavy cars to be sporty.

S4 and TT-S are sportier cars than 335i and Z4, also they are winning every single comparison. Audi is sportier (at least S4, new Z4 is sportier than TT IMO) and doing better in media. Neither Q or X are sporty.

 

[NarutoRamen]

OT, I know...but holy crap. I'm gone for like 1 day and this thread has moved like 5 pages. JEEZ.

 

[NarutoRamen]

S4 and TT-S are sportier cars than 335i and Z4, also they are winning every single comparison. Audi is sportier and doing better in media. Neither Q or X are sporty.

C'mon. S4 isn't really 335's direct rival. The S4 is between the 335 and M3. As for the TT-S, which Z4 are you comparing it too? The newest Z4?

 

[Zafiro]

C'mon. S4 isn't really 335's direct rival. The S4 is between the 335 and M3. As for the TT-S, which Z4 are you comparing it too? The newest Z4?

Its the S4 the 335i is being compared too and the price is pretty much similar . I havent driven a TT-RS but I've driven other version of TT and the new Z4 and I prefer Z4 to TT since the TT feels like A3 to drive but in media TT is doing better than Z4.
BMW lacking a direct competitior to R8 is also a problem.

Personally I think from now on, every new Audi will be sportier brand than BMW. Like I said earlier, Audi is slowly overtaking BMW old image.

 

[NarutoRamen]

Its the S4 the 335i is being compared too and the price is pretty much similar . I havent driven a TT-RS but I've driven other version of TT and the new Z4 and I prefer Z4 to TT since the TT feels like A3 to drive but in media TT is doing better than Z4.
BMW lacking a direct competitior to R8 is also a problem.

Personally I think from now on, every new Audi will be sportier brand than BMW. Like I said earlier, Audi is slowly overtaking BMW old image.

Well, the price is quite different here, so I wouldn't call it a competitor; I don't care what magazine say. I've driven the TT-S but have not driven the new Z4, but in the Z4's defense, it is heavy due to the folding hard-top.

As for the R8, well I can't argue there. As for Audi's moving in BMW's direction. I'm with you on that. They are definitely targeting BMW, even their commercials are trying to get the whole "we're sporty" connection going. The only thing that I'd say gets in Audi's way is the fact that they make either FWD or AWD. The FWD is just plain rubbish, way to nose heavy. The Quattro on the other hand is good but it's just not as fun as a RWD car.

 

[EnI]

I don't think customers (mostly in Europe) went to Audi due to more sporty image / product. OK, maybe in A8 vs E65 7er case. But mostly they shift to audi because it was just better value for money (especially the cabin material quality + fit&finish) - and not featuring any spooky crazy things like "over-complex" iDrive & "goofy" design.

Not to mention BMW - despite having all the reliability problems with electronics etc - offered very poor warranties compared to Audi.

Also Audi cars (eg. A3 & A6 - especially avant) are more spacious than BMW rivals. And most of them are old in FWD TDI version - which is still a plus since many people still have prejudices against "difficult-to-handle" RWD cars.

A know many people who are afraid of BMW - due to notorious reputation of wild BMWs form 80s. Crazy but true. Btw, female & elderly drivers are more prone to these prejudices.

Mind Audi - at least in Europe was a very respected brand. Even more than BMW in some times. And they were selling more cars than BMW. With appealing new designs (by Schreyer & De Silva leadership) & better-then-competitor quality they managed to earn the image back.

But right now Audi are still a bit confused. They want to be everybody's rival:

"We have motorsport in over blood." vs BMW
"We are the new luxury." vs MB & BMW
"We are the most technically advanced brand." vs Porsche, MB & Lexus
"We are one of the greenest brands - remember the A2." vs Lexus & BMW

Etc.


As said many times: Audi has a greta chance to overtake BMW at the top: becoming #1 selling premium brend in the world. Since eg. sub-compact & microcars will be branded Audi - while BMW (& MB) have separate brand sub-compact cars: MINI (MB having smart for micro-cars).

Regarding the image: it's still a long path for Audi to reach the same level of sporty image BMW brand has. A very long path. They need to spice up the core lines to get sporty image - some sporadic models like R8 or RS won't change brands image. But they will surely enhance it when core line will also be sporty enough.

Eg. despite not having any special sports cars in the portfolio the Infiniti brand is perceived (eg in US) as much sportier than Lexus (despite F models & supercar coming).

Same case with Alfa Romeo (in Europe) - which is still perceived as a brand with greater sporty image than Audi.

Brand image perception is very steady thing. It's not changed over night. Decades of great marketing & product engineering are needed to change such thing.

 

[Cabasse0]

Eni

But don't you believe Eni that sporty image is less important today ?
I believe that Audi is outperforming BMW due to to the fact that they are sharing costs with other brands of VW group (Bentley, Porsche) for high end and VW brand for other products ?
BMW is too small particularly in "niche" products (sport cars, etc... ) no ?

 

[EnI]

But don't you believe Eni that sporty image is less important today ?
I believe that Audi is outperforming BMW due to to the fact that they are sharing costs with other brands of VW group (Bentley, Porsche) for high end and VW brand for other products ?
BMW is too small particularly in "niche" products (sport cars, etc... ) no ?

Sure Audi has a huge advantage being a part of VW Group - shared R&D, shared parts, shared purchasing, shared production sites, shared tech etc. I'm not talking only about VW, but also Porsche & Lamborghini etc.

It's eg. easier for VAG to develop a mid-engine small roadster - and then a bit re-engineered sell it under different brands: VW, Seat, Audi, Porsche. Like they did with Q7, Touareg, Cayenne.

VAG's economy of scales makes Audi very strong - much stronger than eg. Lexus under Toyota.

Therefore Audi can spend the saved money on other (marketing & R&D) projects: like creating niche sporty cars. While eg. MB & BMW don't have that extra saved money from economy of scales benefits - they can only save elsewhere, or cancel / postpone such projects until enough money is available.

But as many times in such big concerns - when the company will start to weaken all the brands will hurt the consequences. And as you know nothing is forever - so VW Group success is not for granted & won't be eternal.


****


Sporty image not important? Perhaps. But only sporty image as we knew: loud cars with gas-guzzling engines etc.
Therefore carmakers are trying to associated sportiness with sustainability & green tech (BMW Vision ED, Audi eTron, SLS Electric, Tesla cars etc).
And customers also made it very clear: sportiness -yes, but with sufficient level of comfort 8for daily driving).

IMO BMW will again start some "vanity projects" when Number ONE strategy is fully achieved - but right now during the transformation & reform they channel all the money into Project i & ED & profitability.

But BMW brand sporty image is strong (perhaps even oo strong in some markets) - and can be enhanced ("repaired") very easily with proper products. Just like eg. MB brand image & reputation picked up extremely quickly after those reliability issues - only a generation of proper products was needed.

It's easier to reinforce the image, than create it - reinforcement only needs some short-term (few years of) polishing, while building brand image & identity usually takes decades - but it sure varies from market to market ... But I'm talking about global level here.

 

[Cabasse0]

Joy

I hope so I'm huge fan of BMW Brand ... I'm driving A E89 Z4 and I believe that BMW is coming back on the right track with the new 7 and Z4 ... in terms of both design and quality ..... I hope they will continue on this way despite i'm little disappointed by the 5GT .... but i'm in love with the Vision Concept

 

[NarutoRamen]

Eg. despite not having any special sports cars in the portfolio the Infiniti brand is perceived (eg in US) as much sportier than Lexus (despite F models & supercar coming).

G37S Coupe says Hi. Also, EVERYONE knows that Infiniti is Nissan's luxury wing and they don't try to hide it like Toyota does with Lexus. So Infiniti is easily connected with the likes of 370Z and GT-R. Also, IS is still recent, but the G35 started the whole Japanese sports sedan thing and Maxima has been claiming that for years now. So, actually Infiniti has actually been a "sporty" brand for a long time now, it's just recently (past 7-8 years) they have begun to offer it in product form and not just words.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

^

Just like the presence of Cayenne & Panamera, and absence of Carrera GT DOES NOT make 911 worse, and Porsche brand less appealing...

This example is constantly trotted out to justify the X5/X6 M, yet it's comparing apples with oranges.

If Porsche had called the Cayenne the '911 4x4' or the '911 Cayenne', then that is Porsche "milking" the 911 brand. Porsche just built a 4x4, just like BMW build the X5/X6. I don't think the presence of the standard X5/X6, or even the X3 and 1 Series affect the image of my M3. The M3 is clearly differentiated from the rest of the range, just like the 911 is clearly differentiated from the Cayenne.

The difference is, BMW brought out an X5/X6 M and that differentiation was eroded.

 

[Ultimate Car Guy]

This example is constantly trotted out to justify the X5/X6 M, yet it's comparing apples with oranges.

If Porsche had called the Cayenne the '911 4x4' or the '911 Cayenne', then that is Porsche "milking" the 911 brand. Porsche just built a 4x4, just like BMW build the X5/X6. I don't think the presence of the standard X5/X6, or even the X3 and 1 Series affect the image of my M3. The M3 is clearly differentiated from the rest of the range, just like the 911 is clearly differentiated from the Cayenne.

The difference is, BMW brought out an X5/X6 M and that differentiation was eroded.

I don't follow Betty. How does an X5/X6M make your M3 any less of a car? How does it dilute the distinction between the M3 product line and the rest of the range?

 

[Mr Robert]

I don't follow Betty. How does an X5/X6M make your M3 any less of a car? How does it dilute the distinction between the M3 product line and the rest of the range?

Again, there is a difference between image and product.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

I don't follow Betty. How does an X5/X6M make your M3 any less of a car?

Where did I say that?