Mustang Ford Mustang GTD And GTD Competition


Larry Holt: The days of: "we got under a seven", that's like... that don't mean anything anymore.
I think the GT3 RS wouldn't get anywhere close to this. I mean, in the end, it won't.
:ROFLMAO:

I mean, he is right. It's not anywhere close to the GT3RS. And under 7 is not what it used to be.

Well, good on Ford to actually do and post a lap. Other than that, though, it's not anything amazing. Slower in corners AND on straights than both the AMG GT BS and the 991 GT2RS (and the 2RS was on Cup 2s). And you really notice the weight too. Every transition, every weight transfer has to be slower and more controlled. And the suspension didn't look as sorted as the competition either, leading to a less confidence inspiring car.
 
I am not impressed, I expected much faster with over 800 ps and advanced suspension…
Which tyres did they use?
 
Which tyres did they use?
The same as always - Cup 2 Rs.

Also I just wanna touch on the conditions. The Ford video tries to convince you really hard that the lap was "damp" (with shots of standing water filmed on a different day than the lap was actually done), but honestly, I watched the lap twice and there is not a hint of any wetness anywhere. And even if there was, that's not really relevant unless it's on the racing line. We saw this very clearly with the AMG One. The first lap they did was "damp", but with no wetness on the racing line - and the cornering speeds were identical to the second lap, which was completely dry. So this "damp" thing is nonsense. They are literally just slapping an excuse sticker on a completely dry lap. The only "damp" lap was the AMG GT BS one, with actual water on the racing line in some corners.
 
Also I just wanna touch on the conditions. The Ford video tries to convince you really hard that the lap was "damp" (with shots of standing water filmed on a different day than the lap was actually done), but honestly, I watched the lap twice and there is not a hint of any wetness anywhere. And even if there was, that's not really relevant unless it's on the racing line. We saw this very clearly with the AMG One. The first lap they did was "damp", but with no wetness on the racing line - and the cornering speeds were identical to the second lap, which was completely dry. So this "damp" thing is nonsense. They are literally just slapping an excuse sticker on a completely dry lap. The only "damp" lap was the AMG GT BS one, with actual water on the racing line in some corners.
It's hard to gauge the surface condition, since they filmed the onboard with a potato.
But yeah, the Black Series did way better job with properly damp track surface.

I just want to know how did they not get more accurate lap time estimate/target. Multimatic is as good as it gets in this industry, having developed actual race cars. Plus, they have access to Ford's wind tunnel and state of the art simulators. What the hell went wrong?
 
It's hard to gauge the surface condition, since they filmed the onboard with a potato.
But yeah, the Black Series did way better job with properly damp track surface.

I just want to know how did they not get more accurate lap time estimate/target. Multimatic is as good as it gets in this industry, having developed actual race cars. Plus, they have access to Ford's wind tunnel and state of the art simulators. What the hell went wrong?
I don't think it's that hard in this instance. If the state of water evaporation was in some in-between state where there would be no visible darkness/reflections yet it would still be affecting grip, then you would still see it in parts of the track that are in the shadow. But you don't see it. So this was a completely dry track. I don't think anyone seeing the lap would ever even think of suggesting different if it wasn't for Ford's marketing trying to persuade you otherwise.

As for the gap, it's always the same thing. I have already warned against manufacturers using simulated lap times as bases for their claims countless times. You can put just any data you want into your simulator and pretend those are the same as in the actual car, but really, you have no way of knowing that until you build it and until you run it. In other words, you have no way of knowing what the correlation between the simulator and the real world data is until you have the real world data. The simulator might have a good correlation to some existing car - but that's a car where you already have the real world data and where you had already fed it to the simulator to get that correlation. I guess that under the goading of management/marketing people that try to make you state the most optimistic, outrageous prediction possible, or just lost in their own hype, some engineers tend to forget that and operate on hopium that this time even their most optimistic assumptions will turn out to be true. And it's the same thing with the driver. It's well known (and really quite obvious) that in a simulator you will be able to achieve a much better time than in reality, just because you can drive without the fear of crashing and take every corner going 100%. But then it's only too easy to imagine that your driver will somehow will be able to recreate that in reality if he feels really brave, lucky, and everything just comes together. Of course, it never does, but even then, you can just pretend that that has to do with the driver and not the car, which is definitely capable of that fantastical time you got in a simulator.
 
As for the gap, it's always the same thing. I have already warned against manufacturers using simulated lap times as bases for their claims countless times. You can put just any data you want into your simulator and pretend those are the same as in the actual car, but really, you have no way of knowing that until you build it and until you run it. In other words, you have no way of knowing what the correlation between the simulator and the real world data is until you have the real world data. The simulator might have a good correlation to some existing car - but that's a car where you already have the real world data and where you had already fed it to the simulator to get that correlation. I guess that under the goading of management/marketing people that try to make you state the most optimistic, outrageous prediction possible, or just lost in their own hype, some engineers tend to forget that and operate on hopium that this time even their most optimistic assumptions will turn out to be true. And it's the same thing with the driver. It's well known (and really quite obvious) that in a simulator you will be able to achieve a much better time than in reality, just because you can drive without the fear of crashing and take every corner going 100%. But then it's only too easy to imagine that your driver will somehow will be able to recreate that in reality if he feels really brave, lucky, and everything just comes together. Of course, it never does, but even then, you can just pretend that that has to do with the driver and not the car, which is definitely capable of that fantastical time you got in a simulator.
Of course there's no substitute for real world testing. That said, I refuse to believe the current state of industry-grade simulator software is this bad. Marketing departments cherry picking / cooking up data doesn't mean you can't get accurate models, provided you input real data. Manufacturers wouldn't spend millions on this stuff if didn't work.

And even if they knew they can't get 100% correlation, I would expect an outfit like Multimatic to be aware of this and adjust their results for human factor and imperfect conditions, in order to not promise something they can't deliver. Now they look like clowns.
It's just hard for me to accept Ford would deliberately set out to make a car that is 10 seconds slower than their reference target.

So this was a completely dry track.
Car and Drivers brings more details on the hot lap conditions:
Back in August, soggy conditions almost spoiled Ford's attempt at setting a lap worth talking about back home. However, things cleared up in time for factory driver Dirk Müller to take the GTD's reins and chase glory. It's all documented in the 14-minute video titled "Road to the Ring" that Ford has released on its YouTube channel.

Talking to Car and Driver, Müller said that despite the weather drama on that day, he and the team were able to complete three runs. He broke the seven-minute barrier on the very first lap, which he said relieved a lot of pressure and made everyone proud. While he made two other laps, 6:57.685 was the fastest of the bunch. Still, Müller knows he's got more in the tank.

"We knew the track wasn't there because it was dryish, and it was an extremely hot day," he said. "Everything was not ideal. So that made us believe we can definitely go faster."
It would make sense if the lap was compromised by both the surface grip and high air temp.

I went to check the weather that day and it was about 23°C. If that is extremely hot day, then I feel bad for customers who will try to track their GTDs on a hot day in California or Texas. 😁

1733847288274.jpg
 
I went to check the weather that day and it was about 23°C
Well, there you go. By this point it's not really clear to me if there even was any "weather drama", or whether that's just something that lives in their imaginations - like the "much better than GT3RS" lap time.

I am not ruling out that they can return and get a better lap, but if they do it's very likely gonna be down to whatever setup changes they've made, and to the driver getting more laps and more opportunities to string the sectors together perfectly, rather than weather conditions.
 
Well, there you go. By this point it's not really clear to me if there even was any "weather drama", or whether that's just something that lives in their imaginations - like the "much better than GT3RS" lap time.

I am not ruling out that they can return and get a better lap, but if they do it's very likely gonna be down to whatever setup changes they've made, and to the driver getting more laps and more opportunities to string the sectors together perfectly, rather than weather conditions.
From what I read here it seems that the weather conditions where close to perfect….
 
So after all the talk, now it's claim to fame is "fastest American car around the ring" by being 4 secs faster than a 2017 Viper ACR? I am going to bet if you take the old Viper ACR and put on the latest tires it will probably be quicker.
 
It's impressive for a Mustang. At the end of the day it is what that is. Shape-wise atleast...
Beating Viper ACR E is impressive. But that begs the question, would Viper ACR E be faster on the same tires?
 
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Ford

Ford Motor Company is an American multinational automobile manufacturer headquartered in Dearborn, Michigan, United States. It was founded by Henry Ford and incorporated on June 16, 1903. The company sells automobiles and commercial vehicles under the Ford brand, and luxury cars under its Lincoln brand.
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